Also remember the cool outfit that got posted a number of pages back?


Kyouko would be the perfect audience for it. :V

One day we shall take all the girls clubbing (since thats all I can picture that outfit for.. or like raves)

if only to harvest the tears of all the guys when they figure out the party is all lesbians : P

and taken
 
[x] Redshirt Army

I really think Kaizuki is trying to do this in the wrong order. And the wrong way, since trying to logic someone out of a trauma-induced worldview will more often than not make them dig their heels in harder.
We as players may know we had a choice but Sabrina may end up thinking she was tailor made by Madokami to be Mami's partner.
Does Mami think that?
You know, I've thought about it, but my conclusion has consistently been that anything involving Mami other than super serious stuff ("Kyubey was using her", e.g.) is best left unmentioned while Kyouko is still in push-away mode. Until she's not being that way, the less she associates us with Mami, the better...
Kyoko regularly shows up in the main group in canon. Do you think your approach is how Homura does it?
 
So next time we Soul Snuggle with Aurora... I was thinking, maybe we should start from the start.

That is... we haven't said 'hello'! :p

Maybe next time we can think, concentrate on every time we've said 'hello' to someone, on every welcoming hug we've shared, every beckoning smile and wave, think about the 'hello's, let our Soul be inundated in 'hello's, become the 'hello's... then let Aurora have the 'hello's.

Who knows, maybe we'll get an invisitext 'hello' back? :thonk:

[x] Redshirt Army

I really think Kaizuki is trying to do this in the wrong order. And the wrong way, since trying to logic someone out of a trauma-induced worldview will more often than not make them dig their heels in harder.

Does Mami think that?

Kyoko regularly shows up in the main group in canon. Do you think your approach is how Homura does it?
While she's there in timeline 3 for unknown reasons... probably Moemura's moeness... our Homu has said Kyouko and Mami usually reconcile over shared grief.

So we need to fake Sayaka's death. Shouldn't be hard, what with the clones. :V

*directly proportional.
There's a lot of hate AND a lot of cheer.
Right, I was gonna go with 'inversely proportional to Kyouko's (cheer)' but then I needed to mention Kyouko literally radiation HATE and got it mixed up. Also, geez, so many typos. :p
 
our Homu has said Kyouko and Mami usually reconcile over shared grief.
It's certainly the most effective way to get them to ditch the masks, but sadly it's not on the table right now. I think we've done a decent job of Mami's mask ourselves and Yuma's worked through the worst of Kyoko's, so at this point as long as Mami shows Kyoko the lonely girl who wants her friend back instead of the hardened veteran I don't think Kyoko will be able to hold up her facade for the whole encounter. The hard part is arranging such an encounter.
 
Why the privacy sphere, Kai?

Because the next part of what I laid out is to start walking through metabomb land.

Idk if I laid this out properly. But.

> Get her to more/less admit she's not being selfish ("I'm not saying shit!" counts, e.g.)
> More/less drop the metabomb: start pulling out stuff we can't possibly know, centered around her personal issues.
> tell her that we'd still like to be her friend in light of that stuff.

Three part process: establish that we know her facade is a facade, establish that we know why she pushes everyone away, establish that we want to be her friend anyway.
 
[x] The Phoenixian
@The Phoenixian Haha, now you must write a vote for the metabomb or my poor proxy will be wasted!! (No really though, the explanation via Metabomb seems like one of the more likely ways to get Kyouko to reassess her feelings that Sabrina is working a long con and/or seeing any help as having a price. Might put an interesting spin on what she thinks of us wanting her and Mami reconcile though.... hrmm)


Heh, I guess I'd better get to work then ^_^;

Thanks for the support.

> Get her to more/less admit she's not being selfish ("I'm not saying shit!" counts, e.g.)
> More/less drop the metabomb: start pulling out stuff we can't possibly know, centered around her personal issues.
> tell her that we'd still like to be her friend in light of that stuff.
I have some concerns with the way you structure the middle point here. I'm not sure what facts you plan to pull out or how, but it sounds to me like that strategy could very easily come off as just us stalking her, either on our own or with Mami and/or Oriko's help, depending on how suspicious she is.

I've been looking over her feelings about us and our conversations with her in PMAS, and rereading there's also this bit from our first meeting with her:
I still reckon you've got some kind of agenda, but I'll hear you out. An' I can't really turn down a free lunch if you're offering. But either way, scram for a bit, I need to have words with Yuma.

If Kyouko does indeed still harbor doubts about our intentions, as I expect she does, I'm pretty sure this plan will backfire spectacularly. We're telling her we have even more over her than she thought possible, without going into the whys of it all.

After all, doubting people's intentions seems to be a pretty big part of her deal; she doesn't just cast aspersions on her own intentions and character, she doubts those of everyone around her. In TDS she calls Mami out for having selfish intentions in letting Sayaka contract, and similar is why Homura never seems to form a deeper relationship with her despite the two getting along well on the surface. (Meanwhile she's fast friends with Madoka and Sayaka; the two who wear their hearts on their sleeves. This would also fit with why the Homura of timeline 3 was able to get her to join: Moemura was the goody-twoshoes Homu and would have approached the situation much differently than modern-Homu)

I don't think it's a stretch to infer that the more we hold over her before things are cleared up, the worse it will get.

This is why I prefer to go with some variation on the "who and what we are" route I detailed earlier. It tells her about our metaknowledge, but more importantly tells her about our character, including our actual intentions here, in a pretty unambiguous fashion. (Since we haven't interacted with her much compared to most, and while we've told her about our amnesia, I'm not sure she knows much of the specific.)
 
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If Kyouko does indeed still harbor doubts about our intentions, as I expect she does, I'm pretty sure this plan will backfire spectacularly. We're telling her we have even more over her than she thought possible, without going into the whys of it all.

After all, doubting people's intentions seems to be a pretty big part of her deal; she doesn't just cast aspersions on her own intentions and character, she doubts those of everyone around her. In TDS she calls Mami out for having selfish intentions in letting Sayaka contract, and similar is why Homura never seems to form a deeper relationship with her despite the two getting along well on the surface. (Meanwhile she's fast friends with Madoka and Sayaka; the two who wear their hearts on their sleeves. This would also fit with why the Homura of timeline 3 was able to get her to join: Moemura was the goody-twoshoes Homu and would have approached the situation much differently than modern-Homu)

I don't think it's a stretch to infer that the more we hold over her before things are cleared up, the worse it will get.

This is why I prefer to go with some variation on the "who and what we are" route I detailed earlier. It tells her about our metaknowledge, but more importantly tells her about our character, including our actual intentions here, in a pretty unambiguous fashion. (Since we haven't interacted with her much compared to most, and while we've told her about our amnesia, I'm not sure she knows much of the specific.)

These are good points, and I don't think they change things all that much. I clearly failed to get across the point with that short summary: when I say "more or less drop the metabomb: start pulling out stuff that...", I mean, "drop the metabomb more or less depending on how things look, and start pulling out stuff that..." There isn't any desire on my part to rule out explaining things depending on how things go.

But see, the thing is, the entire point of this plan seems to be something you're missing.

I'm a pretty simple guy. I believe in approaching every problem with good intentions and honesty. If you can't approach a problem with good intentions you're doing something wrong; if you can't be honest about it then at least be honest about not being honest.

*spreads arms*

Kyouko can have all the doubts about our intentions that she wants! I'm fine with that. Our intentions are to be her friend.

... Our intentions are to be her friend in spite of all the bad shit she thinks about herself.

That's it. Because, I mean... *hefts TDS* she's actually a pretty great person. No, seriously. She's a pretty great person who was traumatized to fuck. That is the exact kind of person Sabrina is out to be a friend to.

Getting all of that across to Kyouko is the objective here.

With that established, depending on how the initial vote goes, things may go in wildly different directions. Maybe the first action we need to take after it is
[] Yeah, I knew a bunch of stuff about you before I met you. Been coming clean on that one to a lot of people. No I wasn't lying about the other stuff.
And follow that up with everything else.

Maybe the first action we need to take after it is
[] Stop stonewalling, Kyouko, I know full well what's behind it.

I dunno, it's gonna depend on where we end up. And I do think a scenario where not really dropping the metabomb would be a good idea does exist -- it depends on how much or how little she's going to let us say.

So, maybe this is a better way to put what I'm arguing for:

> Get her to more/less admit she's not being selfish ("I'm not saying shit!" counts, e.g.)
> Drop more or less of the metabomb, depending on the situation. Start pulling out stuff centered around her personal issues.
> tell her that we'd still like to be her friend in light of that stuff.

The reason that "start pulling out stuff centered around her personal issues" gets its own statement is that it's kind of part of the point of the metabomb being dropped here, although the metabomb has its own points too. If I left that as only "drop more or less of the metabomb" then "tell her that we'd still like to be her friend in light of that stuff" makes... not much sense, yeah?
 
Because, I mean... *hefts TDS* she's actually a pretty great person.

Like, to the point there's basically a freaking moeKyouko. There's this page where Mami explains JUSTICE and Kyouko is just, like, sparkling eyes, and another part where she straight up says "I wanted everyone to be happy!"

In hindsight... well, not really hindsight, I kind of knew it beforehand, but... seeing as it's canon to PMAS, it's completely impossible to understand her without this )(#*(@ book, I swear to god.
 
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[Q]

"Of course I've got an ulterior motive!" Sabrina smiles while banging a fist on the table.

...

Sabrina smirks, "And once all that is done, once you all can live happy, normal lives, and you accept your new circumstances, free of hate and fear... I... Will... Be able... TO SHIP EVERY SINGLE ONE OF YOU!" She bellows and throws her arms up in the air, laughing maniatically. *KRACK-A-THOOOM*

"Wait, so you admit- you- you want to ship me with Sayaka, don't you?!"

"Sabrina is trying to ship Big Sis Kyouko with Big Sis In Law Sayaka? Say it ain't so!"

"... We're gonna have to have a talk about your snark, Little Sis."

"To let Yuma know Yuma is snarking good?"

"... Yes."
 
I'm a pretty simple guy. I believe in approaching every problem with good intentions and honesty. If you can't approach a problem with good intentions you're doing something wrong; if you can't be honest about it then at least be honest about not being honest.

*spreads arms*

Kyouko can have all the doubts about our intentions that she wants! I'm fine with that. Our intentions are to be her friend.

... Our intentions are to be her friend in spite of all the bad shit she thinks about herself.

I agree with your sentiment on straightforwards honesty and I don't think you're wrong in it. But for myself, while I do believe in being straightforwards and honest, I'm also an inherently suspicious person: One who doesn't trust bright and happy things and always seems to expect the worst of everything, even when they know that's false, and I read a bit of that in Kyouko.

Which is why I think that not being trusted is a significant social problem here. I think that the more she doesn't trust us, the more bring our base nature into it and being blunt and direct as a hammer about ourselves, before anything else, will help prevent misunderstandings popping up before our true nature can shine through.

So I want to get "around" her suspicions that by being upfront and open about ourselves in a way that can't give false impressions, then continue talking from there.

Start with the thesis statement, continue to the points, conclude by reiterating the thesis.



While I have a drawn out a partial plan for it, I want the actual metabomb of Kyouko, to be the second vote in this conversation, rather than the first, using non-sensitive material to prepare for it.


I'm avoiding the privacy sphere straight off because, well, I don't think we've shown it to her yet and a big black sphere into which no one can see or hear is kinda sus without prior warning or explanation.

First proper draft, will continue to refine things as insight and commentary arrives:

[x] Firnvote
[x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
[x] Aquire food, cleanse, chat.
--[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
[X] Let Kyouko air anything she wants to air.

[x] Privately: Give Kyouko the choice of whether to involve Yuma in talk about our intentions or the church favor. Continue each out loud or by telepathy as appropriate.

-[x] Give the details about what happened with the church on your end, and why Mika felt she owed you a favor.
--[x] You didn't expect this. Mika just happened live in town when you were dealing with your part in the Sendai war peace-agreement, and you had the free time to give her a clear seed. You didn't realize she'd consider it as big a favor as she did.

-[x] Ask Kyouko if she still has doubts about your intentions.
--[x] At the most basic your intentions towards Kyouko and Yuma are that you want to be friends with them, you want them to be friends with your friends, and you want to help everyone you meet. You became a magical girl to give yourself a role in the world, and part of that that role is helping people and giving meguca the ability group together.
--[x] Not over telepathy, use paper or grief writing if Yuma's not in the conversation: There's more to say, but some of it involves things you don't want Kyubey listening in on, and your best form of privacy is large and obviously magical enough to need somewhere secluded.

Also, @Racoras since you were voting for me before I put something up, I should ping you so you can determine if this line of approach matches your expectations.
 
[x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
-[X] Food, cleanse, chat.
--[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
[X] Speak with Kyouko privately. Try to be somewhere where there's nobody around in the first place -- the park Kyouko and Sayaka train in, e.g.
-[X] Let her air anything she wants to air.
-[X] Fill her in on details of events as reasonable.
--[X] Ask about what the exact problem with this being written off as between friends is. Comment that it's very selfless of her, as you'd not expected anything in return.
---[X] If she tries to deny this, poke at it more. A truly selfish person simply wouldn't have done what she has, here.
[X] Cut.

Commentary on the sphere is correct. Nixed for the moment. Added line to account for Kyouko not being entirely up to speed on interactions with Mika.

Which is why I think that not being trusted is a significant social problem here. I think that the more she doesn't trust us, the more bring our base nature into it and being blunt and direct as a hammer about ourselves, before anything else, will help prevent misunderstandings popping up before our true nature can shine through.

So I want to get "around" her suspicions that by being upfront and open about ourselves in a way that can't give false impressions, then continue talking from there.

Start with the thesis statement, continue to the points, conclude by reiterating the thesis.

You're acting like we've never talked with the girl before. I admit, OOC it's been a while, but this is simply an inaccurate direction based on past interactions with Kyouko IC.

--[x] At the most basic your intentions towards Kyouko and Yuma are that you want to be friends with them, you want them to be friends with your friends, and you want to help everyone you meet. You became a magical girl to give yourself a role in the world, and part of that that role is helping people and giving meguca the ability group together.

We have told Kyouko this repeatedly.

-[x] Ask Kyouko if she still has doubts about your intentions.

She has already concluded that we are some kind of crazy charityphile. "Too fucking nice," I think she put it.
 
Okay then, my brain is probably a bit shot then. Going to have to start over.

I mean,

--[x] At the most basic your intentions towards Kyouko and Yuma are that you want to be friends with them, you want them to be friends with your friends, and you want to help everyone you meet. You became a magical girl to give yourself a role in the world, and part of that that role is helping people and giving meguca the ability group together.

Obviously we haven't said those specific words in that precise order, but...
 
@The Phoenixian Still like it a bit better than other-cat's, simply because I don't see the psychoanalyzing going as well, but if I was going to nitpick... something about last block seems off, still to much the stuff she doesn't believe (too good to be true) before we offer the "proof" of metabomb (and so she might get distracted and not let us get to that).

Think I'd rather just work within the transactional paradigm she's used to, phrase it as "being happy and my friend and having all of my different friends get along and hang out IS payment to me! If you really don't believe that of me now, I can tell you more about me and my secrets to really drill in the point. Even explain the mindset behind my Wish!" (because sharing that is a bfd trust-wise to Meguca?) .

Somewhat relatedly, the metabomb also helps to give additional evidence (alongside mentioning somehow that we're dating Mami) that we really really really care about many of the people who are relying on our Clear Seeds and grief-cleansing, so she should be able to trust taking it finally. For that matter, how much have we really told her stories about our adventures in other cities, to express the point that no we really are handing these things out like Candy (well, Hijiri is a counterpoint of sorts) so theres no reason to think we're trying to get people hooked on our product because its free.

And from there, having told her that we have approximate knowledge of many things, maybe even a way to point out that theres no longer any need for some of the past troubles between our friends thanks to this change? Is Kyoko scholarly enough to appreciate a metaphor of "hunter gatherers develop agrarian technology" , considering her talk about the Food Chain ?
 
for some reason I just pictured Sabrina mentioning how Kyoko is easier to deal with then say.. Homura. Say the wrong thing to Homura and you either get killed or essentially fuck the universe over as she LOLNOPES out of the place.

"hunter gatherers develop agrarian technology" , considering her talk about the Food Chain ?

... IDK but I want to do that anyway

thats a nice approach.

edit: also from my armchair understanding it works well with how the concept of government and tech etc work. By losing some independence from literal standpoint you gain the ability to move beyond a short, ugly, brutish existence.
 
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for some reason I just pictured Sabrina mentioning how Kyoko is easier to deal with then say.. Homura. Say the wrong thing to Homura and you either get killed or essentially fuck the universe over as she LOLNOPES out of the place.
In other words, Sabrina is a teenager that prefers to go hang out with her cool shady but nice street rat friend than talk with her mom...

(But actually Sabrina likes talking with her mom shhhhhh... despite how sometimes the talks ended in tears... kind of like Oriko likes talking with Sabrina despite how they both frustrate each other... half a point towards the Homura-O&K similarities tally?)
 
Right, it looks like it's mostly the last section that needs a complete revamping so... Honestly, the prototype just seems better fit to the structure here.

[X] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
-[X] Food, cleanse, chat.
--[X] Ask how yesterday's training went.
[X] Speak with Kyouko privately. Try to be somewhere where there's nobody around in the first place -- the park Kyouko and Sayaka train in, e.g.
-[X] Let her air anything she wants to air.
-[X] Fill her in on details of events as reasonable.
-[] If Kyouko feels she owes you, well, this all happened because she bared her heart to you, you did some stuff that seemed trivial, and you unexpectedly rocked her world as a result.
--[] You'd rather not have that between you but, if you have to, it would be fitting for that repayment to involve her listening to you bear your heart about something that greatly terrifies and matters to you. She can decide afterwards if the trade wasn't equal. Besides, she and Yuma deserve to hear it at this point.

-[X]Cut
 
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So, unrelated, but I want to express that I'm proud of you guys for the way you handled Ono.

Her Witch was made of glass—emblematic of a fragile psyche that was doomed to crack and shatter. Her story was unremarkable, her fate expected and all but guaranteed. Just another innocent girl who was tricked into making a wish to fix her problematic life, unknowingly doomed to just becoming another quick Witch, her fate unknown to the world, lost and forgotten. Falling to despair before any other magical girl even knows about her existence.

But we stopped that. We saved her, even from herself, even if it was like pulling teeth. And now her fate has changed. Now she has a future.

"I wish that everything could be fixed." That was the desperate plea of a girl knowing she would die, hoping, wishing that this world wasn't so cruel and hopeless, but not knowing what, exactly, could be done to change it.

It's kind of funny, really. It's a story of paying it forward. Mami inspires Madoka to save Homura. Homura saves Madoka. Madoka creates us. We save Sayaka and Kyouko. And, in a way, we save Mami, too.
 
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