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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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The thing about Oriko is that she's an Extreme Tsundere.

First she was Extremely Tsuntsun against the world and the idea of needing friends.

Oriko burns down Sayaka's home.

"I'M EVIIIIIIIIL! SUFFEEER AND DIEEEEEE!" *Makes sure they don't actually die* "You must all hate now." *Poses dramatically and flees*

Then she was Extremely Tsuntsun towards us.

Sabrina reads note:

"It's not like I want to be your friend or anythining, you baka." *Explodes*

"Oh no my leg, pain!"

And then she was Extremely Tsuntsun against us and Homura.

"My intention was to antagonize you for weeks on end! It's the only way you idiots could find your way out of a fourth dimensional paperpag. You can't get anything done without me showing you the way forward. Bakas. But it's not like I care about you. Bet you wanna kill me now, huh?"

But we wore our FRIENDSHIP AND HUGS Shield and put up with it.

Later on, Oriko kept being as Tsuntsun and insufferable as possible.

"You're a fool to want to be my friend. I'm gonna die anyway and I'm gonna be a pain in your butt until you realize it.

*INSUFFERABLE INTENSIFIES*

But we still prevailed, put up with all the Tsuntsun, and finally Oriko realized she couldn't ever push us away so just maybe she could give this friendship thing a chance and she's now showing the Deredere.

"No you're not imposing, you can hang out here ALL DAY."

And here we are.

We should let her know.
 
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Onmur said:
We could have thrown rocks at her window and make her come out to meet us, instead of breaking in. We could even cleanse her from outside. >_>
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Yea, grief-spiraling people don't respond to that shit. At the critical point they literally go listlessly limp and kick away fucking grief seeds. When someone is grief-spiralling it should basically be treated like a suicide threat, which 100% justifies breaking into the room to save someone's life by force, every single time.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Yea, grief-spiraling people don't respond to that shit. At the critical point they literally go listlessly limp and kick away fucking grief seeds. When someone is grief-spiralling it should basically be treated like a suicide threat, which 100% justifies breaking into the room to save someone's life by force, every single time.
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[:V]But what if they want to be doomed to an eternity of despair and suffering[/:V]
 
She wanted us to go away after we cleansed her.

I don't think there was any other way to approach that problem.

... That didn't result in her witching out or ending up a recurring problem, anyway. I don't have a harm time justifying the actions taken there to myself, even though I wasn't part of the quest for them.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
Yea, grief-spiraling people don't respond to that shit. At the critical point they literally go listlessly limp and kick away fucking grief seeds. When someone is grief-spiralling it should basically be treated like a suicide threat, which 100% justifies breaking into the room to save someone's life by force, every single time.
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Megane was not spiraling at the time. She was being a bratty teenager who just got stood up by the cool kids.
 
Agent Whiskers said:
Eh, I just see her differently. Especially, in this quest.
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Part of the entire point of Kyouko was to show how far magical girls fall into amoral darkness in order to survive. Her lines about remembering why she became a magical girl in the first place? Yeah. It being jarring is kinda the flipping point of it, because it's supposed to demonstrate just how horrible being a magical girl is, even if the girl survives.
 
Godwinson said:
Part of the entire point of Kyouko was to show how far magical girls fall into amoral darkness in order to survive. Her lines about remembering why she became a magical girl in the first place? Yeah. It being jarring is kinda the flipping point of it, because it's supposed to demonstrate just how horrible being a magical girl is, even if the girl survives.
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Okay? I kind of already know that. So, I'm not sure what this is in response to.
 
Okay, I think I need to put it out there; I'm still very worried about @Kaizuki's last block in the vote backfiring. We've talked about how Kyouko is jaded and proud and while the intent is setup to help solve that, I don't think the structure of the vote engages with her mindset.

This vote is saying things to Kyouko but, unlike Mami's deliberate optimism, my experience with that kind of jade is that words alone, particularly just being told things about yourself that you don't already agree with, are worse than useless: It's easy to say or think anything, practicing it is another thing.

And I think it's the practicing here that's the important bit: With Sayaka and Kyouko her actions are born of Sayaka showing up, being herself, arguing and hearing Kyouko talk about what happened, and then committing to her path of justice anyways. Even after the lichbomb she kept on that path.

And Kyouko's response is: "Okay, I wanna be like her."

Insisting on writing off the favor and explaining why is one thing. It's the latter category: Us actually practicing kindness without being naive about it.

But going from there to talking about who Kyouko is, and particularly telling her she's lying to herself, strikes me as a massive mistake.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Lord Chungus on Dec 8, 2018 at 7:13 PM, finished with 148618 posts and 14 votes.
  • [x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
    -[X] Food, cleanse, chat.
    --[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
    [X] Speak with Kyouko privately. Try to be somewhere where there's nobody around in the first place -- the park Kyouko and Sayaka train in, e.g.
    -[X] Let her air anything she wants to air.
    -[X] Fill her in on details of events as reasonable.
    --[X] Ask about what the exact problem with this being written off as between friends is. Comment that it's very selfless of her, as you'd not expected anything in return.
    ---[X] If she tries to deny this, poke at it more. A truly selfish person simply wouldn't have done what she has, here.
    [X] Cut.
    [x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
    -[x] Aquire food, cleanse, chat.
    --[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
    -[x] Ask if they've got any long-term future plans - there's ways to get legal status.
    -[x] Find an excuse to have a private conversation with Kyouko to discuss some heavy stuff away from Yuma.
    [x] Telepathy Mami, and ask if she'd like it if we tried to set up a future meeting with Kyouko.
    -[x] You think Kyouko *wants* to reconcile, and just needs a push.
    [x] Privately with Kyouko:
    -[x] Discuss the church situation.
    -[x] Make it clear that you don't think she "owes" you for your help.
    --[x] If she insists, ask if she'd be willing to consider a meeting with Mami at some point in the future.
    ---[x] Be upfront about your motivations. You'd love it if Kyouko and Mami could reconcile, but all you're asking for is a meeting.
    [x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
    -[X] Food, cleanse, chat.
    --[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
    [X] Speak with Kyouko privately. Try to be somewhere where there's nobody around in the first place -- the park Kyouko and Sayaka train in, e.g.
    -[X] Let her air anything she wants to air.
    -[X] Fill her in on details of events as reasonable.
    -[X] If Kyouko feels she owes you, well, this all happened because she bared her heart to you, you did some stuff that seemed trivial, and you unexpectedly rocked her world as a result.
    --[X] You'd rather not have that between you but, if you have to, it would be fitting for that repayment to involve her listening to you bear your heart about something that greatly terrifies and matters to you. She can decide afterwards if the trade wasn't equal. Besides, she and Yuma deserve to hear it at this point.
    -[X]Cut
    [x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
    -[x] Aquire food, cleanse, chat.
    --[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
    -[x] Find an excuse to have a private conversation with Kyouko to discuss some heavy stuff away from Yuma.
    [x] Privately with Kyouko:
    -[x] Discuss the church situation.
    -[x] Make it clear that you don't think she "owes" you for your help.
    --[x] If she insists, ask if she could look out for Sayaka. Sayaka isn't good at talking about her problems.
    ---[x] You don't want Kyoko to report to you, or anything; just be there for Sayaka and make sure she doesn't do anything dumb. If she thinks something's seriously wrong, she should tell you.
    ----[x] If Kyoko asks why you need her to do this, explain that Sayaka views you as a Senpai. She looks up to you, she thinks you're strong, and she may not want to admit she's "weak".
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Adhoc vote count started by Lord Chungus on Dec 8, 2018 at 8:17 PM, finished with 148621 posts and 14 votes.
  • [x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
    -[X] Food, cleanse, chat.
    --[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
    [X] Speak with Kyouko privately. Try to be somewhere where there's nobody around in the first place -- the park Kyouko and Sayaka train in, e.g.
    -[X] Let her air anything she wants to air.
    -[X] Fill her in on details of events as reasonable.
    --[X] Ask about what the exact problem with this being written off as between friends is. Comment that it's very selfless of her, as you'd not expected anything in return.
    ---[X] If she tries to deny this, poke at it more. A truly selfish person simply wouldn't have done what she has, here.
    [X] Cut.
    [x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
    -[X] Food, cleanse, chat.
    --[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
    [X] Speak with Kyouko privately. Try to be somewhere where there's nobody around in the first place -- the park Kyouko and Sayaka train in, e.g.
    -[X] Let her air anything she wants to air.
    -[X] Fill her in on details of events as reasonable.
    -[X] If Kyouko feels she owes you, well, this all happened because she bared her heart to you, you did some stuff that seemed trivial, and you unexpectedly rocked her world as a result.
    --[X] You'd rather not have that between you but, if you have to, it would be fitting for that repayment to involve her listening to you bear your heart about something that greatly terrifies and matters to you. She can decide afterwards if the trade wasn't equal. Besides, she and Yuma deserve to hear it at this point.
    -[X]Cut
    [x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
    -[x] Aquire food, cleanse, chat.
    --[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
    -[x] Find an excuse to have a private conversation with Kyouko to discuss some heavy stuff away from Yuma.
    [x] Privately with Kyouko:
    -[x] Discuss the church situation.
    -[x] Make it clear that you don't think she "owes" you for your help.
    --[x] If she insists, ask if she could look out for Sayaka. Sayaka isn't good at talking about her problems.
    ---[x] You don't want Kyoko to report to you, or anything; just be there for Sayaka and make sure she doesn't do anything dumb. If she thinks something's seriously wrong, she should tell you.
    ----[x] If Kyoko asks why you need her to do this, explain that Sayaka views you as a Senpai. She looks up to you, she thinks you're strong, and she may not want to admit she's "weak".
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The thing about Kyouko and Sayaka is that Sayaka reminds Kyouko of herself. Kyouko sees her younger self on Sayaka, that's why she can't just let her go.

About votes...

'Selfless'? Strange word to use on Kyouko, I feel.

Not that I really know what to do with Kyouko, but I can throw an idea. Just an idea, I'm not certain how well this course of action would work.


Entire plan of action said:
[] Prime enough Grief for a Privacy Sphere.

[] Meet Kyouko and Yuma.

[] Have third breakfast. Like a proper hobbit.
[] No serious talk (Church/Metabomb) during breakfast.

[] Breakfast talk: Update Kyouko on... everything:
-[] The Oriko threat has been thoroughly befriended.
-[] You're dating Mami.
-[] You have refugees now.
-[] You're allying with meguca groups and preparing for Walpurgisnacht.
-[] You have friends in other cities.
-[] You also have prisoners. Did you tell her about Asunaro...?

[] Show of hands: You really like helping people. Kyouko and Yuma are just two girls amongst many. They can choose to blend back into the crowd, accept your help without owing you anything. That would be fine.
-[] Don't accept an answer yet*.

[] Offer a privacy sphere for Church talk.
-[] Find out how Kyouko feels about it (emotionally; indebtment aside).
-[] What is it worth to her? The place might still get demolished in a few years.
-[] Honestly: If she feels better having the Church still standing for a bit longer, we're happy enough to have helped.
-[] *You'll have that answer now.

[] If Kyouko insists on paying you back, be honest:
-[] (Privacy Sphere if it's not already up.)
-[] There's a lot you could ask of her. It probably wouldn't even be fair. You could ask for help with Walpurgisnacht; or ask her to have a talk with Mami; or meddle in Yuma's life and make sure she goes back to school...
-[] You'll ask her to keep a secret. And to hear you out. And not explode.
--[] Metabomb drop.
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Explanation said:
'Show of hands': Give Kyouko a clear and simple out. Every time we show up, we pay for her food, we offer her things, like we're all about helping her. And Yuma.

Thing is, we really do help lots of people. And I'd like Kyouko to know that, to know she's not speshul. That we have our own life, where we help many people without expecting anything in return, and also do other things for fun.

So, having that in mind? Kyouko can just accept the help we've given. No strings attached.

'If Kyouko insists on paying you back, be honest': Put everything out there. If Homura gave us any solid advice ever, it was to be honest with Kyouko.

However, at this point, if after our insistence, she still chooses to owe us for the Church thing... we'll call it even if she doesn't bite our head off. Drop Metabomb.

Maybe Kyouko won't feel this is an even exchange, but at any rate, she'll need time to think. We can drop the conversation after the metabomb for the time being.
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Honestly, I agree with @The Phoenixian about potential issues in Kaizuki's vote. And while I'm not hugely sold on metabombing Kyouko at all right now, I don't see my plan as it is realistically winning. Ergo:

[x] The Phoenixian

That should put Phoenixian within striking range of winning the vote.
 
And you waited until I was studying for finals to bring this up why?

I'm not perfectly happy with my standing at the moment. I'd kinda rather replace the stuff at the end with something more... Complete. Something involving saying things and then justifying them, rather than leaving justifying them to next vote.

For the next week or so, I don't have the time to write such a thing to my satisfaction, and frankly the standing will work well enough as an opener.

On an examination of your vote, I'm basically not interested in it, because let me tell you *exactly* how this is going to go:

-[] If Kyouko feels she owes you, well, this all happened because she bared her heart to you, you did some stuff that seemed trivial, and you unexpectedly rocked her world as a result.

This will change nothing at all, because Kyouko is insisting on owing us to avoid the matter being a favor of the sort that a friend would do for another without expectation of repayment rather than because she "feels that she owes us." Kyouko is not Sayaka. Mami saved Kyouko's life when they met and do you see her saying she owes Mami? We are not going to be able to persuade her to just write this off without larger changes in the relationship.

--[] You'd rather not have that between you but, if you have to, it would be fitting for that repayment to involve herlistening to you bear your heart about something that greatly terrifies and matters to you. She can decide afterwards if the trade wasn't equal. Besides, she and Yuma deserve to hear it at this point.

Frankly I halfway expect this to result in--

Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck

Firnagzen said:
"Bullshit," Kyouko says. "Fine, fuck, we're friends, what the hell. Meddlesome Westerners. So what? I owe you anyway."

"I... I can't stop you, if that's how you feel," you say, squishing the Grief in your hands together with a bit more force than necessary. "But I really don't and won't hold it against you."

"Fuck," Kyouko bites out. "Fine. You're gonna talk to Nakano, right? If you're paying her back, then let me help with that."
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Fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck fuck we don't owe Nakano anything

[x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
-[X] Food, cleanse, chat.
--[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
[X] Speak with Kyouko privately. Try to be somewhere where there's nobody around in the first place -- the park Kyouko and Sayaka train in, e.g.
-[X] Let her air anything she wants to air.
-[X] Fill her in on details of events as reasonable.
-[X] Cut after her response, if any.

That's it until after finals tbh, let's just hear what she's got to say following us telling her that we don't owe Nakano anything before we go anywhere very fast cuz otherwise I guarantee we are risking shooting ourselves in the foot, no sense talking about owing people whatever when the established stuff doesn't involve a current assertion of debt.
 
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Hmm. Well not committing to anything at all yet increases the chances of us not doing the metabomb after all, so:

[x] Meet with Kyouko and Yuma.
-[X] Food, cleanse, chat.
--[x] Ask how yesterday's training went.
[X] Speak with Kyouko privately. Try to be somewhere where there's nobody around in the first place -- the park Kyouko and Sayaka train in, e.g.
-[X] Let her air anything she wants to air.
-[X] Fill her in on details of events as reasonable.
-[X] Cut after her response, if any.
 
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