Not necessarily. Pretty much every neighboring group will tend to be enemies with the fake grief controller, due to her offloading her grief onto them or similar.
They might wonder who it was that killed the grief controller's group for a while, but soon everyone will forget about it and move on with their lives.
The issue they're pointing out? Nadia didn't know about it. The travelling news girl never picked up on that. Not once. Presumably because she doesn't leave witnesses to tell about it, and doesn't tell people she's not about to kill. I mean, her whole setup here sure looked like some kind of kill mission, given she clearly was never interested in cooperation or help. She just got cold feet when her victim turned out to be utterly bullshit and incredibly dangerous.
 
kills them and everyone nearby
mmmm...
This simulates very large. Given the magnitude of the task, would we approach this as an excellent human?

I presume someone has music composition as a skill among us?

We might travel to Edinburgh in the next day or two, for a performance of a new requiem. There are a lot of Souls departing at once. We could hold the funeral.
 
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They might wonder who it was that killed the grief controller's group for a while, but soon everyone will forget about it and move on with their lives.
And what about the grief controller's group? What about everyone knowing that there's a boogeyman that makes grief controllers go away? What about the magical girls that would've found the corpses of the grief controller and her entire group? And yet Nadia has heard nothing about this. And I think we asked her about grief controllers, too, right? And she didn't say anything about them having a tendency to die suddenly with not a scratch on them along with everyone that was on their team.

Oh, also, Rionna's shades that "wandered the world as warnings"? Nadia has obviously never met one, nor has she ever heard of their existence. They're not warnings. They're just tortured.
 
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Why is *now* the first time I'm seeing this source laid out fully? I should have read this sooner, my god. Thank you for quoting this, I'd now like to point out to everyone who has had anything to say about Nadia in this matter that the wrong sections of that text have been being emphasized. Read *this*:



Now, I'm gonna ask everyone to remember the details of Rionna's trip.

One-day round-trip tickets -- no sightseeing, no worry that it might take more time than that to deal with what she'd expected us to be.

The talk about how she goes around killing grief controllers.

The lack of any discomfort with the hotel, airport, or any other element of travel.

What part of that speaks to Rionna *not* doing this stuff regularly? What part of this *doesn't* sound like she does it every time she gets wind of a grief controller, and that she's done it at least often enough to be comfortable with it and used to it?

... And Nadia hadn't heard of her travelling much.

Let me be perfectly clear, here: these accounts only match up if you figure that by spending nearly no time away from home and by efficiently & brutally putting down everyone who could report her presence, Rionna has successfully suppressed the knowledge of her murderous adventures from reaching even the ears of *Nadia Bennouna.*

Let me just -- let me just say that again. Nadia had not heard of Rionna "travelling much." That emphatically does not mesh in any way with the things Rionna has said and which we have observed of her. So: is Nadia deaf? Or is Rionna awfully good at not leaving witnesses or evidence by way of *annihilating all of both*, an option which her not calling ahead would seem to support given that her travels should have made it clear that it's protocol, *especially when it seems reasonable to expect that if we didn't get a call ahead, neither did any of the other people she had visited.* The idea that she didn't know calling ahead is expected when she must have committed that "error" multiple times in the past is ludicrous. Not calling ahead, however, would significantly reduce the chances of anyone connecting her to the murders she has committed.

Tl;Dr the biggest thing that text supports is that Nadia doesn't know jack shit about Rionna and will be rather horrified when we tell her what we learned today IC.
So essentialy she is a dishonorable scum?

 
The weirdest thing I'd say about Riona's reputation is that she did seemingly want to leave Mitakihara peacefully.

Which would lead to us telling Nadia everything, pretty much every time.

With this MO, Riona's murders definitely should come to light at some point. Are we really the first group she considered too strong to fight, from amongst her targets?

Unacceptable. Given what you just quoted, can you imagine her insisting on anything other than being witchbombed right on the spot? You know that she'd sacrifice herself in an instant, without ever considering the effects her death would have on Madoka or Homura or Sabrina. The point of asking her to think about it was so that she could think about it. I think that her ability to make a rational, well-informed, and well-considered decision about the witchbomb is more important than her ability to commit suicide.

We need to "give up" on the shades, though I think that that wording is disingenuous. I think that it'd be more accurate to say that we shouldn't throw away everything we've gained for a tiny chance of a relatively minor reward. I think that there's little-to-no value in pursuing them further, I think that there's little-to-no chance that we'll get value out of it, I think that there are multiple indications in and out of story that we won't get it, I think that the constant costs outweigh the benefits all on their own, and I think that the expected cost is so much higher that I'd seriously evaluate it up near "Sayaka witches out".

Oh, more reasons we can't possibly recover Riona's shades: Firnagzen would have to write and flesh out two hundred new meguca and populate our nation-state with them. Noooot happening.
The whole reason we gave Sayaka the choice to get Wichbombed is because we've figured she can take it.

Sure, putting pressure on her is bad -I'd say it's the situation doing the pressuring, though- but it's not nearly as horrifyingly-suicidally-dangerous as I feel you're taking it.

We wouldn't have offered Sayaka the choice if we felt she couldn't take the Witchbomb. She can.


We keep seeds around because if we can even find a way to make them suffer less, it's better than them going to kyubey. These shades will go to the regular old afterlife, hardly a fate akin to that.
By that token, we could smash Grief Seeds and let them go to the afterlife. They're probably suffering more than the shades, given what Witches are.

At least we could Clear every Seed we come across, but we don't.

The shades are the same problem as the Seeds but in a much lower scale. We can try to keep them around, maybe suffering, and try to save them, something extremely difficult, just as it is with Grief Seeds.

There's lots of reasons to not do this:

It's not what we set out to do when we started.

It puts unfair pressure on Sayaka.

We have a lot on our plate, even if we tried to offload this responsibility to Niko, or someone else. Hell, Niko's also on the de-Witching train, so unless working with shades gives her insight into de-Witching, this is also overloading her plate of things to deal with.

It's a really long shot.


I think the main reasons to try are:

We've already figured Sayaka can take the Witchbomb. Yes, it's shitty to put pressure on her, but she's had some advance warning, and I think she would choose to try. Thus...

She would blame herself if she didn't try to save the shades. Mitigating points: We can try and shoulder the responsibility; we can honestly say there's an afterlife, even if we don't have proof, so the shades went somewhere...
 
The weirdest thing I'd say about Riona's reputation is that she did seemingly want to leave Mitakihara peacefully.

Which would lead to us telling Nadia everything, pretty much every time.

With this MO, Riona's murders definitely should come to light at some point. Are we really the first group she considered too strong to fight, from amongst her targets?
No, we know that she wanted to leave our privacy sphere, and wanted us to go away. That most emphatically does not mean that she wanted to leave peacefully -- it means that she wanted to access her shades.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on Sep 19, 2018 at 5:19 AM, finished with 145688 posts and 18 votes.

  • [X] Express gratitude to your friends.
    [X] Grab Rionna's personal effects and hammerspace them.
    -[X] Investigate the cider. Have Mami take a look at it.
    [X] Get an antimagic enchantment from the Kures.
    -[X] Solicit advice from your friends about secure places to keep Rionna's soul gem. Bring up your hammerspace as an option.
    [X] Vent to your friends, snuggle your girlfriend. Seriously, that encounter has you stressed out.
    [X] Grab Rionna's personal effects and hammerspace them.
    -[X] Investigate the cider. Have Mami take a look at it.
    [X] Get an antimagic enchantment from the Kures.
    -[X] Solicit advice from your friends about secure places to keep Rionna's soul gem. Bring up your hammerspace as an option.
    [X] Vent to your friends, snuggle your girlfriend. Seriously, that encounter has you stressed out.
    [X] Get an antimagic enchantment from the Kures.
    -[X] Solicit advice from your friends about secure places to keep Rionna's soul gem. Bring up your hammerspace as an option.
    [X] Vent to your friends, snuggle your girlfriend. Seriously, that encounter has you stressed out.
    [X] Get an antimagic enchantment from the Kures.
    [X] Plan WorldSlayer
    -[X] Poke through Riona's things and vent a bit.
    --[X] hammerspace her stuff
    -[X] Get Anti Magic Enchantments from Kirika and put them on Riona
    -[X] See if Sayaka is willing to be Witchbombed
    --[X] If yes then Sayaka will copy Riona's power and see what can be done about the shades.
    [X] Get Riona's things.
    [X] Get Anti Magic Enchantments for Riona and her Gem, from the Kures.
    [X] Vent to your friends. Not just Riona, but everything wrong in general. Get it all out.
    -[X] Cool down. With hugs. Thank your friends for being your friends.
    -[X] Ask Sayaka if she's thought about your talk from earlier. No pressure. Tell her it's fine if she refuses.
    [X] Continue all antimagic and gem disabling actions.
    [X] Ask your friends to wait for a few minutes for you to try something, 'just to be safe'
    - [X] Make the Soul tri-corder and scan everything in the room. Scan:
    -- [X] The flask
    -- [X] Her gem
    -- [X] Her body
    -- [X] Her suitcase
    -- [X] Her pockets
    -- [X] Every member of the team (just in case she stuck a shade on Sabrina or Mami at the airport)
    -- [X] Do a quick sweep of the room
    [X] Express gratitude to your friends.
    [X] Grab Rionna's personal effects and hammerspace them.
    -[X] Investigate the cider. Have Mami take a look at it.
    [X] Get an antimagic enchantment from the Kures.
    -[X] Solicit advice from your friends about secure places to keep Rionna's soul gem. Bring up your hammerspace as an option.
    [X] Vent to your friends, snuggle your girlfriend. Seriously, that encounter has you stressed out.
    - [X] Discuss what you can while scanning, if it will take longer than a minute
    [X] Try to get a Shade viewing enchantment running, or ask Sayaka to split and try her visual powers in passive mode.
    [X] Get a container to form the anti-magic box enchantment
    [X] Investigate Rionna's personal items, including cider. Read any documents. Store all for later.
    [X] Go to the Kures for box enchantment.
    [X] Brainstorm to determine security placed on Rionn'as Soul Gem.
    -[X] Measure the rate of Grief accumulation in the Gem.
    [X] Plans for travel to Yuki, and vent session after.
    [X] Plan suborbital flight to Edinburgh
 
Wut? Where'd that come from?
"I control their Souls as shades, allowing me to use their powers," she says, and smiles, razor sharp and satisfied. "Don't worry, I only do it to those who would deserve it. As for makin' examples... there's a shade or two here and there who're obliged to give warnings, now and always."
The whole reason we gave Sayaka the choice to get Wichbombed is because we've figured she can take it.

Sure, putting pressure on her is bad -I'd say it's the situation doing the pressuring, though- but it's not nearly as horrifyingly-suicidally-dangerous as I feel you're taking it.

We wouldn't have offered Sayaka the choice if we felt she couldn't take the Witchbomb. She can.
We think that she could take it if she's properly prepared, knows what she's in for, and is doing it at the best possible time with full support and no other stress.

You're proposing to witchbomb her:
  • Completely without warning
  • Under stress (i.e. just after asking her to hold on to the literal tortured souls of a hundred dead magical girls)
  • With no real choice (c.f. tortured souls)
  • Under more stress (i.e. IN TIME STOP, which literally everyone has told me is too stressful to have a vacation in, much less impromptu witchbomb therapy)
  • Away from her normal support network (unless we want to go find Madoka and Hitomi and pull them into timestop before continuing with this insane plan)
  • In a stressful environment (c.f. WE'RE IN TIME STOP, and every single time I propose doing anything with it I get shouted down because we need to stay out of time stop as much as possible because it's "too stressful" and "everyone hates it")
  • Away from a supportive environment (that is, not in her room where she can be comfy and isn't being stressed out about being in time stop)
  • UNDER EVEN MORE STRESS (because there's no fucking way she gets over it in a single session, so we'd actually just be doing enough therapy to get her minimally stable and then dumping all of Rionna's souls on her for her to deal with while she works her way through the rest of it over the next few days)
  • With no support there either (because you think Sayaka or Homura would let Madoka anywhere near the new collection of tortured souls?)
Nope. Not happening. Sayaka should be able to handle it under good conditions. These aren't anything even close to good conditions.
 
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No, we know that she wanted to leave our privacy sphere, and wanted us to go away. That most emphatically does not mean that she wanted to leave peacefully -- it means that she wanted to access her shades.

I'm going to second this, at this point. Remember that Rionna only entered the sphere in the first place before she became convinced we couldn't help her, and that she was surprised by the sphere's ability to block her shades.

Given that she's so far prevented the spread of information concerning her actions, but told us so much about them, I'm no longer prepared to dismiss as unrealistic the idea that she would have attacked some or all of our group on being released from the sphere.
 
Regardless, the shades are now Sabrina's responsibility. Sabtina and he voters decided to take Rionna down, so now they have to take responsibility for any consequences like the shades fading.

Or do people make it a habit to abandon 9 yr olds and teenage gitls to their doom nowadays?

Wssn't their a big argument about blabla bla slavery, blabla bla Rionna is a monster, blalbla bla she should not get away with her actions, and now theres talk about abandoning the shades to die.

Do you guys know what this means? Its the equicalent of capturing human traffickers, but not making the effort to find the victims before they die of starvation and dehydration or leaving them in a sinking ship that the so called 'hero' just sunk.

Or was all that self-righteous discussion about slavery, Rionna is evil just empty words of convenience in the end to voters and Sabrina to be in the moral highground? Talking about abandoning them just because its inconvenient or requires too much effort.

In the words of tv tropes,

What the hell SV?
 
"She's a monster," you say, rubbing your forehead. "I mean... yeah. It's so weird. It was such a weird encounter and kind of, I don't know... I don't really know what to think."

"Oh, for-" Sayaka rolls her eyes. "Mami, hug her."

Mami does exactly that, wrapping her arms around you, and a moment later, Sayaka joins the hug. "Oi, Homura, get over here."

Best girl(s)

Ha, and Homura is so terrible at comforting that it loops back into endearing.

*Sees recent posts and theories*

Ah, Rionna. I'm not sure who's the bigger idiot. You for not letting go, or me for ever thinking that there was any possibility of there being anything good or redeemable in you.:V
 
You're proposing to witchbomb her:
  • Completely without warning
  • Under stress (i.e. just after asking her to hold on to the literal tortured souls of a hundred dead magical girls)
  • With no real choice (c.f. tortured souls)
  • Under more stress (i.e. IN TIME STOP, which literally everyone has told me is too stressful to have a vacation in, much less impromptu witchbomb therapy)
  • With no support (c.f. WE'RE IN TIME STOP, and every single time I propose doing anything with it I get shouted down because we need to stay out of time stop as much as possible)
  • UNDER EVEN MORE STRESS (because there's no fucking way she gets over it in a single session, so we'd actually just be doing enough therapy to get her minimally stable and then dumping all of Rionna's souls on her for her to deal with while she works her way through the rest of it over the next few days)
  • With no support there either (because you think Sayaka or Homura would let Madoka anywhere near the new collection of tortured souls?)
Again, I acknowledge the reasons to not do this, but this sounds quite exaggerated to me.

In the end, it's moving up the time table due to pressing concerns. If I had a way to ask Sayaka whether she's made her decision without being obvious it's kind of urgent, I don't think it would even be any sort of dilemma. We could simply ask and get a yes or no.

Unfortunately, Sayaka is not a fool. :V

Given that she's so far prevented the spread of information concerning her actions,
This post from Firn's led me to believe she doesn't really do this:
Now, the thing about Nadia is that she's seen some shit. Rionna isn't a mass murderer, doesn't mass oppress magical girls. The University Group and the Sendai Group, for example, wouldn't even have been blips to Nadia. And Nadia isn't omniscient. She can only know of the big things - Rionna quietly wandering off to execute a magical girl or two here and there? That's not something Nadia might know about unless she hears about it from elsewhere. Keep in mind she doesn't really stay in any given location for long enough to find out about this kind of thing! However, I agree that the implications Nadia left weren't conducive to this current confrontation. That's one of my mistakes. I could have implied Nadia's unreliability in this kind of situation before.
"Keep in mind she doesn't really stay in any given location for long enough to find out about this kind of thing!"

I think that implies people know; Nadia doesn't because she's busy going around and Rionna's not all that impactful in the world of meguca, all in all. "Rionna isn't a mass murderer, doesn't mass oppress magical girls."
 
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"Keep in mind she doesn't really stay in any given location for long enough to find out about this kind of thing!"

I think that implies people know; Nadia doesn't because she's busy going around and Rionna's not all that impactful in the world of meguca, all in all. "Rionna isn't a mass murdered, doesn't mass oppress magical girls."

Silver linings, I guess. She isn't a mass murder. Just pretty much a serial killer.:V

Although, that does get me morbidly interested in what sort of horrible atrocities Nadia has seen.
 
In the end, it's moving up the time table due to pressing concerns. If I had a way to ask Sayaka whether she's made her decision without being obvious it's kind of urgent, I don't think it would even be any sort of dilemma. We could simply ask and get a yes or no.
If by "moving up" you mean "doing it under completely different circumstances with no plan, a third as many resources, a tenth as much time, in an inherently unsettling environment, and without giving her time to prepare herself", sure, it's "just" "moving up" our schedule.
Given that she's so far prevented the spread of information concerning her actions, but told us so much about them, I'm no longer prepared to dismiss as unrealistic the idea that she would have attacked some or all of our group on being released from the sphere.
Yeah, the stuff she told us, that's not the kind of thing that you just let people walk away from. Especially once she'd gotten to "I wished for the power to raise my sister's killer from the dead so I could torture her for the rest of eternity", that's... super not something she'd let get out. And yet, it didn't really take her all that long to get around to revealing that, did it? You'd think that someone would have talked to her long enough to get that detail, right?
 
@Onmur -
The clock is ticking slowly for our decision to try and copy Rionna's power. The Shades are still bound to Rionna, because we have not killed her. I think Sayaka could actually sleep on it.
Can we wait?

If, and only if, she makes the choice, a good reason will help. Let me give Sayaka a better reason to give up some of her positive outlook forever. The only part of this she might consider is worth the damage is the verbal compulsion power.

In the hands of a person committed to goodness, this will let her smother hostility with a power that prevents combat. Every power Rionna has been seen to use so far is slippery slope stuff. Much like firearms in our government, this is a final argument of kings. Becoming able to use the power of combat mind control and not fall to its evil would move us closer to global reach.

OTOH, if she feels that the soul power is too unclean, I would not be upset if Sayaka cast out that copy permanently.


It isn't a question of there being no way for her to be fixed. We may not be able to accomplish it. But from today, her journey to Madokami became a lot more distressing. Some girls gotta do it the hard way, and it looks like prison is her way. Our jobs are never gonna be done?
 
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Regardless, the shades are now Sabrina's responsibility. Sabtina and he voters decided to take Rionna down, so now they have to take responsibility for any consequences like the shades fading.

Or do people make it a habit to abandon 9 yr olds and teenage gitls to their doom nowadays?

Wssn't their a big argument about blabla bla slavery, blabla bla Rionna is a monster, blalbla bla she should not get away with her actions, and now theres talk about abandoning the shades to die.

Do you guys know what this means? Its the equicalent of capturing human traffickers, but not making the effort to find the victims before they die of starvation and dehydration or leaving them in a sinking ship that the so called 'hero' just sunk.

Or was all that self-righteous discussion about slavery, Rionna is evil just empty words of convenience in the end to voters and Sabrina to be in the moral highground? Talking about abandoning them just because its inconvenient or requires too much effort.

In the words of tv tropes,

What the hell SV?
I appreciate that you're trying to make a point. However, accusing the rest of the thread of being child-murderers is not acceptable behaviour. Consider yourself warned.
 
"Keep in mind she doesn't really stay in any given location for long enough to find out about this kind of thing!"

I think that implies people know; Nadia doesn't because she's busy going around and Rionna's not all that impactful in the world of meguca, all in all. "Rionna isn't a mass murdered, doesn't mass oppress magical girls."

More to this.
As I was saying before, "leaving no witnesses" policy would require murdering cities worth of Magical Girls.
There's not a snowball's chance in hell Nadia wouldn't have heard about mysterious disappearances of power structures of an entire fucking city.
What about Tokyo or a similarly large city? Excuse me, but my SoD is dissolving faster than a plate of pastries in front of Kyouko.

So instead, what was happening is probably this: Rionna finds Griefguca and assasinates her however she deems appropriate, then leaves town.
Unless someone's checking statistics on those things, no one would suspect a serial killer going after Griefbenders when the ones in the know have another readily available explanation: Witching Out.
 
It isn't a question of there being no way for her to be fixed. We may not be able to accomplish it. But from today, her journey to Madokami became a lot more distressing. Some girls gotta do it the hard way, and it looks like prison is her way. Our jobs are never gonna be done?

Redemption requires contrition, guilt, and all that good stuff as a starting point. So technically, she isn't really redeemable.:cool: *is being pedantic*

Actually being serious for a moment, that could possibly change in the future. In the far, far future. Redemption can't exactly be forced.
 
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