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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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FromTheFuture said:
... huh.
Apparently, Walpurgisnacht can use dead magical girls as familiars in the manga.
Like, any dead meguca in the area.
... We should make sure nobody dies in Mitakihara.
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Word of God is that her Familiars are the souls of dead Magical Girls she collects, yea. It is implied that they're just images and that the souls actually become part of Walpurgisnacht, since she can 'reuse' Familiar types.

But you know what that fucking reminds me of?

Rionna. :U
 
Nah I'm thinking that there is technically a chance, emphasis on chance, that if we stop Rionna's gem from Blackening Walpurgisnacht doesn't happen.

As far as I know Walpurgisnacht is an Epithet. Not a true witch name.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 8, 2018 at 9:18 PM, finished with 143308 posts and 32 votes.
  • [X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    -[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
    -[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
    -[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, cut to voting.
    -[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    -[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable (ideally following this ordering if possible). If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    [X] She doesn't want this fight, because it's a line she doesn't want to cross, isn't it? You haven't attacked her and nor does she think you deserve to die.
    -[X] If she argues this, point out it never had to come to a fight. She's been doing this for years - if she'd wanted to kill you, she easily could have by now.
    [X] Nor is it that you can't help her. It's because what she's trying to do is so important to her that the risk of trusting someone is too much for her.
    -[X] If she argues this, refute her. You are the only person she's ever found who can use the power she wants. She came over here on a rumour.
    [X] You're her best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe she's been betrayed before, but there are things she just can't do alone, no matter how determined she is. No matter how strong she is.
    [X] You don't like what she does, sure. Maybe there are even more horrible things you don't even know about. But there's almost always a reason, and it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve help.
    [X] "Please let me help you, Rionna mag Aoidhe."
    [x] Because the truth is... you need her help, too.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Explain Clear Seeds: the sheer quantity of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, how you've tried feeding this one hope magic and it seems to be accepting it.
    -[x] It might be possible to turn a witch back into a girl. This might be the first step.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
    [x] Why can't you help her?
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, or Rionna tries to leave, break to voting:
    -[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
    -[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, as long as they're willing to stop once it's not needed. It would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
    -[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, assure her that you're able and willing to keep secrets even from very close friends - (gesture at Mami).
    -[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    -[X] If at any point it's reasonable, or if she asks what our interest in cooperation is, mention that you're interested in dewitching.
    [X] Deliver points with force. Counter her negatives.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we need to make a soul gem. Her soul vision is important.
    [X] We are not fighting her. Punishment isn't our only response.
    [X] State that saving absolutely everybody is our goal. Helping is our strength. Even strangers.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Proof - We can visit Anri.
    [X] Body fabrication is possible. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly the evils Magical Girl life leads her to do, whatever they are. Nothing new to see here.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time to deal squarely with us. Her wish is right here.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable (ideally following this ordering if possible). If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    [X] She doesn't want this fight, because it's a line she doesn't want to cross, isn't it? You haven't attacked her and nor does she think you deserve to die.
    -[X] If she argues this, point out it never had to come to a fight. She's been doing this for years - if she'd wanted to kill you, she easily could have by now.
    [X] Nor is it that you can't help her. It's because what she's trying to do is so important to her that the risk of trusting someone is too much for her.
    -[X] If she argues this, refute her. You are the only person she's ever found who can use the power she wants. She came over here on a rumour.
    [X] You're her best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe she's been betrayed before, but there are things she just can't do alone, no matter how determined she is. No matter how strong she is.
    [X] You don't like what she does, sure. Maybe there are even more horrible things you don't even know about. But there's almost always a reason, and it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve help.
    [X] "Please let me help you, Rionna mag Aoidhe."
    -[X] Offer her the Clear Seed without the happiness magic in it.
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Conjured Blade said:
Nah I'm thinking that there is technically a chance, emphasis on chance, that if we stop Rionna's gem from Blackening Walpurgisnacht doesn't happen.

As far as I know Walpurgisnacht is an Epithet. Not a true witch name.
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The thing is, Walpurgisnacht has been around for a while. Like, a few centuries. Don't quote me on that, though. Forgot where exactly I heard it.
 
Conjured Blade said:
Nah I'm thinking that there is technically a chance, emphasis on chance, that if we stop Rionna's gem from Blackening Walpurgisnacht doesn't happen.

As far as I know Walpurgisnacht is an Epithet. Not a true witch name.
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IIRC, Walpurgisnacht is a blight upon the land several centuries in the making.
More to the point, every veteran Magical Girl so far knows about Walpurgisnacht.

The popular fan theory is that Walpurgisnacht originated in Europe, and her base is Tart, AKA Jeanne D'Arc. Sadly, we can't confirm or deny it, because Tart Magica ends on
her retroactively being saved by Madokami.

PM me if you want some Tarts for yourself. I've been given a mission by a certain goblin to spread Tarts far and wide across this fair land.

E: aaaand ninja'd.
 
Raiseth said:
The popular fan theory is that Walpurgisnacht originated in Europe, and her base is Tart, AKA Jeanne D'Arc. Sadly, we can't confirm or deny it, because Tart Magica ends on
her retroactively being saved by Madokami.
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Eh... the problem with that theory is that...
Tart's witch is stated to have been large enough that it would have consumed all of Europe, which is why she went to her execution voluntarily: it was an attempt to sacrifice herself to save Europe and, by extension, France. Walpurgisnacht is city-destroyer level, not continent-destroyer level.
 
obssesednuker said:
Eh... the problem with that theory is that...
Tart's witch is stated to have been large enough that it would have consumed all of Europe, which is why she went to her execution voluntarily: it was an attempt to sacrifice herself to save Europe and, by extension, France. Walpurgisnacht is city-destroyer level, not continent-destroyer level.
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Either way, we will never find out, because Madokami loves France and everything French apparently more than she respects narrative causality.

... I have never expected to be on this side of the argument.
 
Raiseth said:
Either way, we will never find out, because Madokami loves France and everything French apparently more than she respects narrative causality.

... I have never expected to be on this side of the argument.
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Really? I figured it was magical girls that Madokami loved more then narrative causality. Or at least, I bet that's what the English tell themselves. :V
 
FromTheFuture said:
... huh.
Apparently, Walpurgisnacht can use dead magical girls as familiars in the manga.
Like, any dead meguca in the area.
... We should make sure nobody dies in Mitakihara.
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AuraTwilight said:
Word of God is that her Familiars are the souls of dead Magical Girls she collects, yea. It is implied that they're just images and that the souls actually become part of Walpurgisnacht, since she can 'reuse' Familiar types.

But you know what that fucking reminds me of?

Rionna. :U
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Torgamous said:
Do you think she'd be able to harvest Walpurgisnacht's familiars for shades?
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Then it should be possible to engage in a battle of wills through the related applications of magic? Loading down the command and control system is a right thing to attempt.

Or the issue can be reduced somewhat by depriving her of resources.

HeroCycle said:
...

Also, speckled enchantment time, @Onmur ! I'm thinking that we need a provisional set of Proton Packs, sensors and containment gear? Who is going to clean out our city?
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It might a joke, but it isn't really just humor. If Rionna isn't a treaty partner, then we will need to check our city for shades soon. Perhaps we will need to experiment in the emancipation / capture of shades as well.

This might give us the knock-on effect of clearing out the dead who may be lingering in Mitakihara. The religious professionals will have a field day with us, perhaps? The souls we release will helpfully not be available to re-fit as weapons during the battle.

If we fubar Walpurgisnacht's access to chunky concrete debris, the familiars will become a key part of her assault. We will see them earlier, and without reservation.
 
A bit late to the relevant conversation, but implications seem to point towards Riona's soul-stealing magic being a touch attack that works on active opponents, kind of like a roided-up version of the Pleiades' Tocco del Male.
 
Firnagzen said:
"I can't tell you how to act," you say, and meet her eyes squarely. "But whatever it is you're dealing with back home in Edinburgh, I can help you with it."

Rionna blinks, something flickering across her face. That's a hit, and that's more information than you had before. Something new you didn't know before.

"My magic can do far more than just move Grief around," you say, gesturing at the privacy field around you. "And what I can't do, I've got people for - or I can find people for. Unlimited cleansing is kind of the ultimate bargaining chip."

She looks away, and coughs roughly into the back of her hand.

Madoka would try.

And if you're wrong, if she's hostile, well.

Your magic can do far more than just move Grief around. What you can't do, you have your friends for.

"You can't help me," Rionna says, shaking her head. "Go back to your girl, go back to your friends. Y' don't want this fight, neither do I."
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So... randomly googling, I find references towards this:

She looks away, and coughs roughly into the back of her hand.
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... Possibly being a gesture of lying:

Coughing is one of the giveaway signs for when someone is lying, according to Darren.
But he revealed: "Nine in 10 people don't recognise coughing as a sign of lying.

"There is a process called detection apprehension, which means the more a person wants to keep a lie in, the more signals the body gives off.
"When you tell a lie, you are in a state of heightened anxiety, which causes the body's saliva to dry up, producing a dry throat - and this makes you cough."
So how else can you tell if a person is lying to you? Darren Stanton gives his top seven tips.
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Body Language - When We Are Judging Or Trying To Deceive (can't highlight this one)
The Mouth Cover

This is an instinctive gesture that first appears in early childhood. A lier covers his mouth with his hand, as if he or she is trying to prevent the deceitful words from being said. It could be just a few fingers covering the lips, or the whole palm — the meaning doesn't change.

Some people try to disguise the mouth cover gesture by giving a fake cough.

If the person who is using this gesture of covering the mouth is the one who is speaking, it means she might be lying. However, if she is a listener, it might mean that she feels that you are not being totally honest and sincere with her.
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  • The mouth guard is one of the few adult gestures that is as obvious as a child's. The hand covers the mouth and the thumb is pressed against the cheek as the brain sub-consciously instructs it to try and suppress the deceitful words that are being said. Sometimes this gesture may only be several fingers over the mouth or even a closed fist, but its meaning remains the same.
  • Many people try to disguise the mouth guard gesture by giving a fake cough.If the person who is speaking uses this gesture, it indicates that he is telling a lie. If, however, he covers his mouth while you are speaking, it indicates that he feels you are lying!
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I know the first quote calls "Nine in 10 people don't recognise coughing as a sign of lying", no need to point it out, but I'm not sure I'd put much stock in this...

Feels like a movieland thing to me; IRL I see people lie with a straight face most of the time... though I do see this gesture is used as a joke that one is being insincere.

Anyway, random googling. Maybe it means something? Riona afraid to accept offer for help? Hiding her own grief cleansing? Something something?
 
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Onmur said:
Maybe it means something? Riona afraid to accept offer for help? Hiding her own grief cleansing? Something something?
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Nice!

The idea that she just lost her most important conversational goal just crossed her mind. She could be thinking we are lying, but that doesn't seem like the choice with the most real evidence behind it. The cough is a broader symptom, we must try to find a context for it. Basically, safest general fact is her stress is jumping off the scale. Could we make a more specific claim?

We HAVE real evidence of magic she hasn't seen in our conversation. Can't doubt the spell she is sitting in. She might dis-believe in friendship and trust, but I don't think she could be doubting we could act with a group. She must have seen that.

If she just gave away her secret, we need to put her on the correct side of things before she makes another wrong guess. Thus, I wanted to be able to offer her a visit with Anri, to prove we don't kill for justice. The vulnerability she is feeling over her secret might be intense. She needs information that she doesn't understand how to ask for, and didn't prepare herself for going in.

Much as we got very incomplete information about her. Somehow. Keep that one in mind for later.
 
Onmur said:
So... randomly googling, I find references towards this:

... Possibly being a gesture of lying
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Could also mean that she was so shocked that some of her hooch went down the wrong pipe.


I feel like "cut to voting" if Riona worries about confidentiality guarantees us a short update, because she certainly will. Could we at least try a reassurance that what's said in the privacy bubble stays in the privacy bubble?
 
We can...

Please criticize in detail.

[ecks] Deliver points with force. Counter her negatives.
-[ecks] We don't spread secrets - gesture to Privacy
[ecks] We are not fighting her. Punishment isn't our only response.
[ecks] Tell Rionna that we need to make a soul gem. Her soul vision is important.
[ecks] Saving absolutely everybody is our goal. Helping is our strength. Even strangers.
[ecks] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
[ecks] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
[ecks] Proof - We can visit Anri.
[ecks] Body fabrication is already possible, and required.
[ecks] Explain we understand perfectly the evils Magical Girl life leads her to do, whatever they are. Nothing new to see here.
[ecks] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time to deal squarely with us. Her wish is right here.
[ecks] We can almost communicate with witches.
 
Onmur said:
I'm pretty sure she loves the chairs the most.
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It's the only reasonable explanation for why there are so many of these fucking things throughout the series!

How else would would you explain it if not for Madokami retroactively filling the space-time continuum full of sitting apparatuses?

How?!
I don't hear you, smart guy! There, mystery solved.
 
Raiseth said:
It's the only reasonable explanation for why there are so many of these fucking things throughout the series!

How else would would you explain it if not for Madokami retroactively filling the space-time continuum full of sitting apparatuses?

How?!
I don't hear you, smart guy! There, mystery solved.
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The truth, dear Raiseth, is that the universe of PMMM is, at its core, a chair, and all chairs that appear in the series are but pale imitations of this fundamental truth, ascended entities attempting to become the whole they know they are part of, somewhere deep within.

Madoka seemed to be a totally normal girl, whose ascent came to be thanks to Homura's efforts, but while dear Sabrina's mother's actions and sacrifice were an essential part of the process, it was thanks to Madoka's most profound and sage wisdom that she could really ascend, and become a Kami.

For Madoka Kaname had always, intuitively recognized the sheer eminence of chairs, even if she, by herself, could not yet appreciate the true chair.

Finally, thanks to Homura's accidental potential shenanigans, Madoka managed to fully comprehend the chairness of the universe and, it is said, she even rested her own magnificient self on the universe's even more magnificiently comfortable upholstery for a brief moment.

Thus did Madoka accept her place in the universe.
 
Raiseth said:
About that.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but according to my calculations, she needs one Grief Seed every 40-50 hours, if her Gem size is comparable to ours.
Requires a vigorous regimen of hunting, but not unmanageable.
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The previous calculations for how quickly Rionna would need to hunt are different now, yes -- the actual strain on her soul gem is much lower than was estimated based on the previously given numbers.
 
DB_Explorer said:
Mami: Sabrina! get out of the vents!
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*Crawling*

"Out of what?!"

"The vents!"

"Which vents?!"

"The vents you're in, Sabrina!"

"No!"

"Sabrina, you get out of there right now!"

"I'm getting out whenever I want to get out!"

"You get out of there or you're getting no cake tonight!"

"You wouldn't do that!"

"I would!"

"What's going on?"

"Sabrina won't get out of the vents again."

"Did you threaten to hold back the cake?"

"Of course I did!"

"And to hold back the hugs?"

"Let's not get crazy."
 
Godwinson said:
The previous calculations for how quickly Rionna would need to hunt are different now, yes -- the actual strain on her soul gem is much lower than was estimated based on the previously given numbers.
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This would make her collected Shades similar to an Enchantment, we should deduce? Each has to be charged, and the continuous cost might be the linkage. Or she has no linkage costs, but since she is in battle readiness, one or more stolen powers are active?
It only tangentially concerns me, given the current environment. If we became her benefactor, the numbers would matter. In an attrition fight they would matter more. Veterans probably don't get into attrition conflicts,right?
Onmur said:
The truth, dear Raiseth, is that the universe of PMMM is, at its core, a chair, and all chairs that appear in the series are but pale imitations of this fundamental truth, ascended entities attempting to become the whole they know they are part of, somewhere deep within.

Madoka seemed to be a totally normal girl, whose ascent came to be thanks to Homura's efforts, but while dear Sabrina's mother's actions and sacrifice were an essential part of the process, it was thanks to Madoka's most profound and sage wisdom that she could really ascend, and become a Kami.

For Madoka Kaname had always, intuitively recognized the sheer eminence of chairs, even if she, by herself, could not yet appreciate the true chair.

Finally, thanks to Homura's accidental potential shenanigans, Madoka managed to fully comprehend the chairness of the universe and, it is said, she even rested her own magnificient self on the universe's even more magnificiently comfortable upholstery for a brief moment.

Thus did Madoka accept her place in the universe.
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PMMM redefined by incorporating a Chair-thropic principle, similar to TTGL? Everything shaped like a chair is more powerful?

Onmur said:
*Crawling*

"Out of what?!"

"The vents!"
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Ooohh. I think an AU version of Sabrina from such a crossover would have much less trouble using Intimidate? But a great difficulty in reciprocal hugs?

Probably due to the teeth.
 
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