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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Vebyast said:
There is no possible way her power is less ethically problematic than ours. That was made completely clear to us in the first paragraph of her explanation. And the way Riona is behaving, she'd probably be happily committing atrocities is she had the power to multiply loaves of bread.
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Again, you are basing this on the fact thst she was smiling when she described her powers

There are several possible explanations for her expression outside of "she's a psychopath who enjoys killing"
 
Vebyast said:
And the way Riona is behaving, she'd probably be happily committing atrocities is she had the power to multiply loaves of bread.
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That's extraordinarily unlikely. C'mon, you know human psychology better then this. Rionna's current approach to her power would obviously have been shaped by what she was forced to do with it initially to survive. In the first few months, she has to become okay with using her power, or she'll die.

Moreover, I generally respect Firn enough to assume that he's writing three dimensional characters, not cardboard cutouts with "evil" written on them. He went well out of his way to make the PMKM cast make more sense.
 
kinigget said:
My entire argument is that we don't actually have grounds to condemn her because we have so little information about what she has actually done and why

Right now she's feeding us the worst possible interpretation because she's edgy like that

No, I'm not going to fault her for using the tools she has available to her to try to carve a little safety into the world, but i will ask that she stop when we have a non-lethal solution

Death is the one punishment you can't take back after all
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"I mean, this person is bragging about having assaulted and killed a girl, but maybe they're just being edgy."

Conjured Blade said:
Interesting Contradiction in her dialogue there. Ever wonder what's up with that?
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Godwinson already did this multiple times. Riona has a public image as someone who goes around inflicting justice on Bad gucas. She wants our power and would love to take it by force. She has every reason to think we are some sort of fraud like every other Grief Controller.

She's trying to goad us into taking the first move so she can kill us with the moral high ground and protect her reputation.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Godwinson already did this multiple times. Riona has a public image as someone who goes around inflicting justice on Bad gucas. She wants our power and would love to take it by force. She has every reason to think we are some sort of fraud like every other Grief Controller.

She's trying to goad us into taking the first move so she can kill us with the moral high ground and protect her reputation.
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I don't really buy that explanation, to be honest. Rionna is many things, but I don't think "manipulative" is one of them. She seems blunt to a fault.
 
AuraTwilight said:
"I mean, this person is bragging about having assaulted and killed a girl, but maybe they're just being edgy."



Godwinson already did this multiple times. Riona has a public image as someone who goes around inflicting justice on Bad gucas. She wants our power and would love to take it by force. She has every reason to think we are some sort of fraud like every other Grief Controller.

She's trying to goad us into taking the first move so she can kill us with the moral high ground and protect her reputation.
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That and Guilt-free acquisition of it depending on how charitable you are.

If we're going to socially win here I think we need a risky scheme, using our power as bait.
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 2, 2018 at 3:38 PM, finished with 142699 posts and 25 votes.
  • [X] Reaction: Disappointment.
    -[X] Calm down.
    -[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
    [X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
    -[X] Put your cards on the table. Your goals are:
    --[X] To free Magical Girls from the need for Seeds and territory; to allow them to have normal lives.
    --[X] To reverse Witchification.
    -[X] Nadia thinks we're crazy for wanting this, but both she and Kyuubey confirmed our power works. We cando this.
    [X] Ask Riona:
    -[X] Whether she can help with any of that.
    -[X] What does she want?
    [x] Keep Rionna talking.
    -[x] Flat out tell her that you want her help with dewitching, and that you're offering her the cleansing she wants. Why is she so willing to leave?
    [x] ABSOLUTELY DO NOT LET RIONNA NOTICE THIS, KEEP YOUR EMOTIONAL REACTION TO THIS MUTED:
    -[x] Calmly message Mami with grief, requesting that she not react and contact Homura for timestop, please.
    --[x] You need to discuss what Rionna has said with Mami, Homura, and Sayaka to decide what to do. You won't commit to any action without that discussion first.
    ---[x] Keep calm, do not commit to hostile action against Rionna in your mind.
    [x] You flew half way around the world to find a real Grief cleanser, and you're just going to leave? No. You came here looking for something. Well, so am I. Let's deal.
    [x] I'm trying to figure out how to turn a witch back into a person. The Clear Seed is the first step. They have thousands of times the capacity of regular Grief Seeds. One of these can keep a magical girl clean for centuries. And eventually we hope to enchant something that will do the job without needing souls at all. No more witchouts. No more used Seeds going into Kyubey's back for him to do god-knows-what to. No more need for girls to put themselves through this hell of hunting and fighting to survive. We can all just live like real people.
    [x] When we no longer need Seeds to survive, we can start helping them, too. We've already gotten some small results from injecting positive emotions into the Clear Seed. Your soul powers might be the key to making this back into a Soul Gem.
    [x] You came here looking for a charlatan, a dragon to slay, but I'm not your enemy. I want to help people. Ask Nadia Bennouna, she'll confirm that I'm for real.
    [x] You fought the false Grief Cleansers because they were witching girls out. We don't want anyone to witchout either. We can make a world where no one does, ever again.
    [x] Please. Help us.
    [X] Sigh, relax your visible tension, maybe slump a little bit.
    -[X] "You're not very easy to work with."
    [X] Explain and demonstrate your power
    -[X] Pull grief from your soul gem, float it around, make a few shapes. Perhaps a flute that starts softly playing music?
    -[X] Pull a little bit of grief from a grief seed, just to prove its possible
    --[X] Explain that floating grief is easy to manage, especially given use of a 4th dimension of space. If the cloud ever gets to be a bit too much you can just shove it down Kyubey's backhole. We can demonstrate this afterwards if she'd like.
    [X] After power explanation, move on to explaining your goals.
    -[X] Emphasize your desire for magical girls around the world to be able to live normal lives
    --[X] Ultimately, you want to break Kyubey's wretched system of grief and suffering, and replace it with something better
    ---[X] Some enchanted artefact that can absorb grief, or the proliferation of clear seeds or something that'll ensure magical girls can live long and peaceful lives, witches can be slowly but surely removed as a threat, and maybe Kyubey can even still accumulate grief for his anti-entropy efforts.
    [X] Now Riona knows what you can do and what your goals are. What's her place going to be in things?
    -[X] She can choose to help Sabrina with her powers, with her experience and very different perspective
    -[X] She can choose to go home in peace and deal with her own shit for however long it takes for Sabrina to fix things and bring infinite cleansings all the way to Ireland
    -[X] She can, for whatever reason, oppose this. Preferably with logical argument rather than sudden hostilities. Maaaybe don't mention this? Let it go unsaid unless she comments.
    --[X] Whatever her immediate choices, know that enslaved and possibly suffering shades of the dead won't be tolerated forever. That kind of shit belongs in Kyubey's system, not ours.
    [X] Discretely call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting with her, Homura and Sayaka
    -[X] Get them up to date with the meering with Riona.
    -[X] Discuss the next course of action
    [X] You don't care, do you?
    [X] Gem her if the answer is no.
    [x] Why?
    [X]You want my power that badly? Do you have any power copiers you can try to get mine? The ones I've met can't do it. I could use an insurance policy.
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Redshirt Army said:
I don't really buy that explanation, to be honest. Rionna is many things, but I don't think "manipulative" is one of them. She seems blunt to a fault.
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And if she was, why not just lie about it afterwards?
AuraTwilight said:
If she's not trying to manipulate us, then she's exactly what she appears to be: A complete and total psychopath bragging about her crimes.
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There are numerous other explanations.
 
AuraTwilight said:
If she's not trying to manipulate us, then she's exactly what she appears to be: A complete and total psychopath bragging about her crimes.
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Yeah, like how Kyouko bragged to Sayaka about familiar farming and advised her to break Kyousuke's arm.

I'm not claiming that the actions described are equivalent, but Kyouko was neither trying to manipulate Sayaka nor was she as much of a psycho as she acted as. False dichotomy.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Yes, it is bad. Not everyone she turns into a ghost-slave is a grief controller or a bad person. She literally just threw that some of them are muggles or possibly good people in our face.
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You got a point there. And if I consider this,
Redshirt Army said:
She's met morally righteous crusader gucas before (probably naive newbies, given how guca demographics sort out) and doesn't want to get into the same kind of argument with us, probably.
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Then, I'm now thinking that "maybe good people" are probably mostly reasonable people who are disgusted by her actions and try to kill her.

Grumble. I don't like the whole situation.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Yeah, like how Kyouko bragged to Sayaka about familiar farming and advised her to break Kyousuke's arm.

I'm not claiming that the actions described are equivalent, but Kyouko was neither trying to manipulate Sayaka nor was she as much of a psycho as she acted as. False dichotomy.
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... Are you fucking kidding? Yes she was, Kyouko was deliberately trying to goad Sayaka into a fight both times.
 
AuraTwilight said:
If she's not trying to manipulate us, then she's exactly what she appears to be: A complete and total psychopath bragging about her crimes.
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To me she looks like a surly drunk who tries to goad her drinking buddy into punching her by telling she goes around kicking puppies so that she could have a fistfight in the end of a shitty day month year.

Not to say that she's drunk.
 
Skelm said:
And if she was, why not just lie about it afterwards?

There are numerous other explanations.
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Name one, because...

Raiseth said:
To me she looks like a surly drunk who tries to goad her drinking buddy into punching her by telling she goes around kicking puppies so that she could have a fistfight in the end of a shitty day month year.

Not to say that she's drunk.
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...Trying to goad someone into punching you is still manipulation.
 
AuraTwilight said:
... Are you fucking kidding? Yes she was, Kyouko was deliberately trying to goad Sayaka into a fight both times.
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Depends on what you mean by "manipulate". I think it's a bit of a stretch to jump straight to "Rionna wants to goad us into a fight so that she can tell Nadia and other infogucas that we started it after she kills us, and probably is in fact a willing agent of QB".
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Depends on what you mean by "manipulate". I think it's a bit of a stretch to jump straight to "Rionna wants to goad us into a fight so that she can tell Nadia and other infogucas that we started it after she kills us, and probably is in fact a willing agent of QB".
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We don't have any credible reason to take it off the table, either, but I'm using 'manipulative' to mean "Riona is lying or exaggerating her actions and is trying to make us throw the first punch." The deeper reasoning is academic.
 
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