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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
If this means what I think it means, it's just being blunt and straight to the point, and not burden Riona with politeness?
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I'm mostly meaning, handling the Witchbomb with care, because even if Riona 99.9% likely knows, it's in our favor to keep the exact same sort of security and careful address about it as normal, even if a bit more blunt or brief. Going back to the whole "if we discard security just because we're pretty sure it's fine, we're only as secure as our own judgement" thing. If there's one item to remain irritatingly careful about, I believe it's this one. Also, it may send the wrong message about how careful we are with the information, if we're not careful.

Onmur said:
As for confirming Riona's Witchbombed status, I think it should be simple enough. We're pointing out Mami's not privy to certain 'facts that terrify many Magical Girls', and I think Riona should understand what that means. Then we can hint/ask in a variety of ways (Does Riona know the true purpose of Magical Girls? / We know all about the system, she should feel free to tell us anything, does she know what we're talking about? / Does Riona know where Witches come from? / How many Soul Gems does it take to change a galactic light bulb? / etc.).
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Simple, yes, but we're not actually providing guidance about it in the present vote, and that means it's not guaranteed to be any of these nice, reasonable ways to broach the subject. I trust Firn, but also, that's really not a lot of guidance in the vote to leave him with.

Onmur said:
(Do we need to include a '[] do not mention info about X, Y, and Homu'?)
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I think we can just change some of the wording to make it more clear, e.g.

-[] Share hypothesis about being created by magic.
--[] Whole-cloth.
--[] As part of a larger purpose.
---[] Share how many times you coincidentally were able to help someone in the nick of time.

Whole-cloth counts as one word, and doesn't accidentally imply "tell everything". A larger purpose implies the same things as before and doesn't potentially seem like it's referencing Concepts, i.e. Madokami, and being a part of something on that level.

While a "keep infosec" would be good to have, if we don't have room then I think the slight clarification and Brinapilot should probably do fine here.
 
Onmur said:
[X] If her motives make sense and she seems good and honest:
-[X] Share hypothesis about being created by magic.
--[X] Wholly.
--[X] As part of a larger concept.
---[X] Share how many times you coincidentally were able to help someone in the nick of time.
--[X] By de-Witching.
---[X] Explain Witch names, Witch runes, the name in your Ring.
-[X] Else, break to voting.
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I'm still not super comfortable with sharing this much in our first conversation. Is "created by magic" just another way of saying "wished into existence"?

HeroCycle said:
She is not defending herself at all, to a blatant degree. Is it overconfidence? Is it justified confidence? Risk taking? Or does she have an advantage over us, a non-combat advantage?
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If I had to guess, her power probably lets her OHKO meguca just as easily as ours does, and she's probably confident in her ability to take us out if we try anything, just as we are in our ability to do the same.
 
mCooperative said:
While a "keep infosec" would be good to have, if we don't have room then I think the slight clarification and Brinapilot should probably do fine here.
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If it's choice between wordcount and clarity, I'd rather go with clarity. Firn can't always follow the thread closely enough to glean context: only what's in the actual tallied vote counts when it comes to determining Sabrina's actions.
 
The Narrator said:
If it's choice between wordcount and clarity, I'd rather go with clarity. Firn can't always follow the thread closely enough to glean context: only what's in the actual tallied vote counts when it comes to determining Sabrina's actions.
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I'd rather as well, yes, as I mentioned about the Witchbomb handling issue. Alls I mean is that the suggested edits should be safe by topic regarding our origins; the guard rail would be good, though. This might be case we willfully go a touch over wordcount, though not go wild with it or anything. But we're losing a lot of context at present.
 
So, to conclude my train of thought.
We control Grief
Our real name is a Witch Name
We can create a Barrier
We probably would be able to create familiars if we tried, and in their absence, we can make ChibiBrinas
Sooo the only thing separating us from a Witch is that our Grief Seed is kinda round and curvy instead of sharp and edgy?
Welp
 
Raiseth said:
So, to conclude my train of thought.
We control Grief
We can create a Barrier
We probably would be able to create familiars if we tried, and in their absence, we can make ChibiBrinas
Sooo the only thing separating us from a Witch is that our Grief Seed is kinda round and curvy instead of sharp and edgy?
Welp
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I think the fundamental difference between a Witch and a Magical Girl isn't a question of what you can do, but a question of what you are and how you do it. We might control Grief, but our magic still fundamentally comes from a place of Hope. Griefbending doesn't make us a Witch any more than a wish to "control fire" would make another Magical Girl into a fire elemental.

We might turn out to be a Witch in some sense after all (our true name is the name of our Witch, etc); but I would be extremely surprised if that was because of our wish magic in particular, as opposed to our magical origins and history.
 
Onmur said:
As for confirming Riona's Witchbombed status, I think it should be simple enough. We're pointing out Mami's not privy to certain 'facts that terrify many Magical Girls', and I think Riona should understand what that means. Then we can hint/ask in a variety of ways (Does Riona know the true purpose of Magical Girls? / We know all about the system, she should feel free to tell us anything, does she know what we're talking about? / Does Riona know where Witches come from? / How many Soul Gems does it take to change a galactic light bulb? / etc.).
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We can be direct too:

- What happens to a soul gen when it fills with grief? It becomes a grief seed*

- Why? Because soul gems are the magical girl's souls

If Rionn*a says something of the lines of "a magical girl losing her magic" we can just rise an eyebrow to her so she understands she's the one making lose our time.

I'm pretty sure we should be able to imply (if not outright tell) we already know the answer and we just wanted to confirm she knows it too.
 
How does this look?

@mCooperative @Filraen

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh and there's this reason why I just wanted to let Brinapilot handle it. Woooooooords. :p

@The Narrator

To start with, I wanted to keep hypothesis sharing as a thought for next update, which is why right now I got it locked behind 'If her motives make sense and she seems good and honest'. I would be more comfortable giving us ourselves an update to think it through after hearing Riona's motives. >_>

possible changes said:
[] Keep in contact with Mami, with Grief.
-[] (Comfort and precautionary measure).

[] Be efficient.
-[] Shrug off rudeness, prioritize business over politeness, be blunt.

[] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of facts that terrify many Magical Girls.
-[] Check Riona's Witch's name.
-[] Confirm Riona's bombed status.
--[] Potential actions:
---[] Assure you know everything about the system.
---[] Ask:
----[] What horrible secrets does she know.
----[] After the true purpose of Magical Girls.
----[] What happens when a Soul Gem fills completely, and why.

[] Information sharing:
-[] Waking up half-dead; amnesia; knowledge, random and about the system.
-[] KB's comment about karma level and experiences.
--[] Check Riona's opinion of KB.

[] Figure how far to trust Riona.
-[] Ask after her motives.
--[] Mental note: She did fly halfway across the world based on rumours.
-[] Ask what she sees in you (with her powers).

[] Cut to voting.
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EDIT: Mind, I kind of expect Riona to preempt us before we really get into asking her to confirm which bombs she knows, and also that her opinion of KB might become clear while talking that point.
 
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Onmur said:
What horrible secrets does she know
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it's missing about meguca or about the meguca system.

Onmur said:
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh and there's this reason why I just wanted to let Brinapilot handle it. Woooooooords. :p
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I think Brinapilot should be ok for that, as long as we give her a good direction con constraints.

How about this? /Eggman

[] Witchbomb/Lichbomb
-[] Confirm Riona's bombed status; consider the possibility or Riona not knowing in spite of her soul magic.
--[] If she doesn't know either/both bombs, break for voting.
-[] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of witchbomb.
-[] Check Riona's Witch's name

The Break for voting is because the rest of the vote generally presumes Rion+a being bombed already.

Order may change but I think it's important for Brinapilot to be explicit on considering the possibility or Riona not knowing some bomb in spite of her powers.
 
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Filraen said:
consider the possibility or Riona not knowing in spite of her soul magic.
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Okay. I considered it, and found it really fricking implausible.

How about this, as a Brinapilot directive?

[ ] Check Riona's bombed status.
-[ ] As a formality, to maintain good habits. Be brief and direct, don't insult her with attributed ignorance.
-[ ] If she somehow doesn't know the bombs, break to voting.
 
Filraen said:
it's missing about meguca or about the meguca system.

I think Brinapilot should be ok for that, as long as we give her a good direction con constraints.

How about this? /Eggman

[] Witchbomb/Lichbomb
-[] Confirm Riona's bombed status; consider the possibility or Riona not knowing in spite of her soul magic.
--[] If she doesn't know either/both bombs, break for voting.
-[] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of witchbomb.
-[] Check Riona's Witch's name

The Break for voting is because the rest of the vote generally presumes Rion+a being bombed already.

Order may change but I think it's important for Brinapilot to be explicit on considering the possibility or Riona not knowing some bomb in spite of her powers.
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Redshirt Army said:
Okay. I considered it, and found it really fricking implausible.

How about this, as a Brinapilot directive?

[ ] Check Riona's bombed status.
-[ ] As a formality, to maintain good habits. Be brief and direct, don't insult her with attributed ignorance.
-[ ] If she somehow doesn't know the bombs, break to voting.
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Opinions on saving hypothesis sharing for next round?
 
Onmur said:
Opinions on saving hypothesis sharing for next round?
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Well, I would certainly prefer not to do it in this update. Maybe put forth the amnesia and weird karma thing and see if she puts forward any hypotheses of her own?

-[] Waking up half-dead; amnesia; knowledge, random and about the system.
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Err... admitting to already knowing about the magical girl system is fine, but I sure hope "random" knowledge doesn't mean our possession of metaknowledge. That's one of our most closely-guarded secrets.
 
[X] Keep in contact with Mami, with Grief.
-[X] (Comfort and precautionary measure).

[X] Be efficient.
-[X] Shrug off rudeness, prioritize business over politeness, be blunt.

[X] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of facts that terrify many Magical Girls.
-[X] Check Riona's Witch's name.
-[X] Check Riona's bombed status.
--[X] As a formality, to maintain good habits. Be brief and direct, don't insult her with attributed ignorance.
--[X] If she somehow doesn't know the bombs, break to voting.

[X] Information sharing:
-[X] Waking up half-dead; amnesia; knowledge: random (languages, skills) and about the system.
-[X] KB's comment about karma level and experiences.
--[X] Check Riona's opinion of KB.

[X] Figure how far to trust Riona.
-[X] Ask after her motives.
--[X] (Mental note: She flew halfway across the world based on rumours?)
-[X] Ask what she sees in you (with her powers).

[X] Cut to voting.
 
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mCooperative said:
Going back to the whole "if we discard security just because we're pretty sure it's fine, we're only as secure as our own judgement" thing.
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...I saw this argument the other day and it bothered me and I wasn't sure why. I think I've figured it out.

It's not actually possible to be 100% sure, but it's also impossible to be sure that our fishing questions are interpreted correctly, or for them to be sure they interpreted correctly when answering. We could end up in a real epistemic rabbit hole with "are we sure they knew we knew they knew we're asking about the witchbomb?" since it's no safer to ask directly than to assume someone knows, and even letting people know that there is a Dark Secret Of Meguca Existence is risky. Maybe even more risky than telling them directly, since they might figure it out later when we're no longer available to intervene. Especially if they have soul magic.

(I do still think asking is the right call here, since all we have to go on is our own imagined assumptions of how "soul magic" works and what exactly it covers, which is nowhere near enough confidence to go "100% sure that she knows")
 
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Random832 said:
...I saw this argument the other day and it bothered me and I wasn't sure why. I think I've figured it out.

It's not actually possible to be 100% sure, but it's also impossible to be sure that our fishing questions are interpreted correctly, or for them to be sure they interpreted correctly when answering. We could end up in a real epistemic rabbit hole with "are we sure they knew we knew they knew we're asking about the witchbomb?" since it's no safer to ask directly than to assume someone knows, and even letting people know that there is a Dark Secret Of Meguca Existence is risky. Maybe even more risky than telling them directly, since they might figure it out later when we're no longer available to intervene. Especially if they have soul magic.

(I do still think asking is the right call here, since all we have to go on is our own imagined assumptions of how "soul magic" works and what exactly it covers, which is nowhere near enough confidence to go "100% sure that she knows")
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I've had similar thoughts...
Onmur said:
I really don't want to actually hint at any information a meguca could theoretically follow up on and witchbomb themselves, in case they weren't witchbombed. The fact Riona's 99.99% witchbombed for sure helps a lot, but short of some zany word game some japanese fiction are so fond of, I can't think of a way to do this.

"Mami chose to not know the real purpose of Magical Girls" - "THERE'S A REAL PURPOSE?!"

"... the secret/truth about Soul Gems" - "BUT KB SAID IT WAS MY TRANSFORMATION GADGET!"

Etc., etc...
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In the end, I don't think we can hint at the Witchbomb without... hinting at the Witchbomb... I guess we could put it that way. :p

For right now, there's kind of an option. "Mami chose to not know certain terrifying things, do you know what those certain terrifying things are? Hint?"

(I think this relies on the fact Rionnnnnna is 99,99% witchbombed and thus works.)

But for anybody else... we've had to 'hint' with phrases such as 'the origins of witches'. Which isn't a thing we want a non-Witchbombed guca to ever hear. :/
 
Random832 said:
...I saw this argument the other day and it bothered me and I wasn't sure why. I think I've figured it out.

It's not actually possible to be 100% sure, but it's also impossible to be sure that our fishing questions are interpreted correctly, or for them to be sure they interpreted correctly when answering. We could end up in a real epistemic rabbit hole with "are we sure they knew we knew they knew we're asking about the witchbomb?" since it's no safer to ask directly than to assume someone knows, and even letting people know that there is a Dark Secret Of Meguca Existence is risky. Maybe even more risky than telling them directly, since they might figure it out later when we're no longer available to intervene. Especially if they have soul magic.

(I do still think asking is the right call here, since all we have to go on is our own imagined assumptions of how "soul magic" works and what exactly it covers, which is nowhere near enough confidence to go "100% sure that she knows")
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I mean, we do have to use our own judgement somewhere in the process, yeah, particularly as we don't have a good codified and tested way of handling this anyway. It's mostly "get to the point you're both talking about a big secret, that you've verbally confirmed you both think is probably the same secret, and then ask directly, because if you're talking about two different big secrets, then, well, now's the time to handle that". Like. In my mind it's mostly a question of "are we sure enough of x meguca's Witchbombed status to just ask straight out 'do you know where Witches come from', or do we want to ask some subtle questions leading into asking if they know there's a secret at all first", and I think that the first one isn't a good idea unless we're about to walk unavoidably into a situation where it's the topic of discussion and the other person needs to be warned in the little time we have left. And that's like- already going to be a hell situation.

Onmur said:
In the end, I don't think we can hint at the Witchbomb without... hinting at the Witchbomb... I guess we could put it that way. :p

For right now, there's kind of an option. "Mami chose to not know certain terrifying things, do you know what those certain terrifying things are? Hint?"

(I think this relies on the fact Rionnnnnna is 99,99% witchbombed and thus works.)

But for anybody else... we've had to 'hint' with phrases such as 'the origins of witches'. Which isn't a thing we want a non-Witchbombed guca to ever hear. :/
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I think starting with "you know what happens when your soul gem isn't cleaned properly" is actually a perfectly fine way to lead in (sometimes, not necessarily specifically now), because, well, who was it, Ono? was someone we had to throw that sort of sentence at completely unrelated to considering 'bombing her. It sounds more like making sure you've got the job description down and didn't forget a detail, than "we've got a terrifying secret"- unless you already know.

(edit: brb mock interview things)
 
Man, I am waaaay late to this.
25 hours of wakedness does things to you....
Even if it's pointless at this point,
[X] Kaizuki
 
Uhm.

Okay, somebody help: did we ever tell Mami about our theory that we're the creation of a wish?

I actually can't finish the next chapter of MQ without a definite answer to this >_>
 
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mCooperative said:
I think starting with "you know what happens when your soul gem isn't cleaned properly"
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That's still a dangerous hint. "Wait, doesn't everyone? Or are you saying there's something beyond the basic information Kyubey gives everyone about it?"

We could fall back on saying they'll just die, but that risks Kyubey contradicting us, which could be a problem if it's someone who believes that Kyubey never directly lies.

And even that skips over the lichbomb. Which there's not a chance in hell Rionna doesn't know, but it's something to keep in mind in general.
 
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