Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
- I disagree with the idea that we need more information right now.
- The things we want to say can be derived from nothing more than Canon, Madoka's Wish in PMAS, and the fact that Homura is unhappy.
- Nothing she's said in the last two updates has been a surprise, either in the intuitive sense or the sense that it ruled out any high-likelihood hypotheses and therefore carried significant information-theoretic weight. What she's been saying does not change what we are doing and I think it's unlikely that she'll say anything that does.
- I disagree with the idea that asking Homura to explain herself will work or be useful. She has historically been absolutely awful at explaining herself. We've tried it repeatedly and gotten nothing useful. She refuses to say anything unless we explicitly ask her about it and even then she can only get out a few words at a time. Getting information out of her is not something you can do with a simple "Encourage her to explain". You have to go digging, you have to choose a particular thing and point her down that path.
- I disagree with the idea that listening to her is a good way to make her feel supported and valued.
- Homura's feelings hurt her. There's a thing in programming called "rubber-duck debugging". The basic idea is that talking through your ideas out loud forces you to transcribe them for a different medium, making you go over all of your assumptions and reasoning again. In software, this is a great way to find inconsistencies. In Homura, forcing her to talk about things will also force her to solidify her position. She'll have to summarize her arguments for Sabrina, in the process creating explicit, pithy things that can echo around in her head and hurt her more.
- Right now we still have room to deflect. We can reassure her and support her without contradicting her. If she provides any real arguments, all of a sudden anything we say is going against her arguments. That's a really shitty way to help someone feel better about themselves.
- Homura's feelings hurt her. I fundamentally disagree that forcing her to keep talking will make her feel happier. She's trying. She's making an effort. But look at her! She can't keep going! She's digging as deep as she can to give us what we need and this is as far as she can go! Fucking do something for her!
- Homura's feelings hurt her. There's a thing in programming called "rubber-duck debugging". The basic idea is that talking through your ideas out loud forces you to transcribe them for a different medium, making you go over all of your assumptions and reasoning again. In software, this is a great way to find inconsistencies. In Homura, forcing her to talk about things will also force her to solidify her position. She'll have to summarize her arguments for Sabrina, in the process creating explicit, pithy things that can echo around in her head and hurt her more.
- I disagree with the idea that going forward on our current information is dangerous.
- Homura already believes it's the same Madoka every time. She has to, otherwise she'd have killed Madoka herself over and over and over. It's why she has so much trouble with Oriko; she believes that it's the same Oriko over and over and over. That's the only way she can possibly blame Oriko for past-Oriko's actions. So we're not telling her anything new, only expanding on what she knows.
- Homura learning that Madoka has been having dreams about her shouldn't have significant failure modes. So far I haven't seen an actual disagreement with the idea, only non-specific "we don't have enough information yet" claims.
- I disagree with the idea that we can help Homura just by letting her talk about her emotions.
- If she could have fixed herself by talking about her emotions she'd have done it by now. She needs way, way more than a supportive friend. She needs an entire new worldview, one with radical changes, and she can't do it herself. She needs us to do things to help her. That's why she's talking to us at all, because she thinks that we'll be able to change things.
- If nothing else, if we just encourage her to talk freely, her chances of giving us anything useful are nearly zero. She has so many issues that aren't close to the root causes that she could talk forever without getting close to anything that'd help her. We need to be providing guidance and direction for her.
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
- "Take the long view" does not mean "Do nothing significant". For example, the best way to deal with something is often to move decisively as soon as possible and then give the results time to percolate. It's the same as if you're trying to deflect an asteroid - if you catch it ten years out, you can deflect it just by tapping it on the side and letting the distance do the rest, but if you wait until the very last moment you have to do much more work.
- "Take the long view" does not mean "Don't push". It just means that we may have to push for a long time.
- "Won't solve over night" doesn't mean "Shouldn't try to make progress when opportunities arise". It just means that we should expect any single opportunity to provide some progress instead of solving the entire problem.
- "Won't solve over night" doesn't mean that all opportunities are the same. Sometimes you get a chance to say something that will make a much bigger difference.
- "Take the long view" doesn't mean "take no risks". We are, unfortunately, operating in a bayesian epistemic framework, so there are always risks. What we must do instead is avoid catastrophic risks, because we'll be taking a ton of them. This is not a catastrophic risk.
- "Over time" doesn't mean "Hands-off". It just means we have to keep at it.
Yeah, Homura won't be that easy. We'll probably need three or four of those in sequence, and probably a few more. But they exist. Homura's problems aren't something that she'll "just get over" if we help her "become more comfortable with herself" "gently and over time". That's like saying that you can drive a car to Antarctica "gently and over time". Homura needs a fundamental change of perspective, and our only hope is to find that new perspective for her.
Vebyast has convinced me that asking Homura to explain herself will do no good.
[X] Kaizuki
[X] Kaizuki
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
Did you typo your vote? Kai's current vote is pretty much all "ask her to explain herself":
OctarineShrike
Avatar of Mandos
Now the question is what kind of perspective without seeming exploitive/ creepy/manipulative.
For example: "If you can't see yourself as a human being right now that's fine. I'll be here for you until you can because as the piece I use to protect Madoka, as a force multiplier of this aspiring Shadow Government, you have performed well. You deserve no less."
It's a perspective. If Homura can only see herself as a tool then she's a very good one and that's why we'll be there for her to help her learn to see herself as a human being again.( Edit:It gives her an outlet/source of self-worth until she can realize for herself her life has value.)
The problem is it's creepy as hell and I have no idea how to make it less creepy or how to put it in a non-creepy way right now.
For example: "If you can't see yourself as a human being right now that's fine. I'll be here for you until you can because as the piece I use to protect Madoka, as a force multiplier of this aspiring Shadow Government, you have performed well. You deserve no less."
It's a perspective. If Homura can only see herself as a tool then she's a very good one and that's why we'll be there for her to help her learn to see herself as a human being again.( Edit:It gives her an outlet/source of self-worth until she can realize for herself her life has value.)
The problem is it's creepy as hell and I have no idea how to make it less creepy or how to put it in a non-creepy way right now.
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- Location
- Potato land
[X] Godwinson
@Vebyast has convinced me of the futility of the completely passive approach. I'm not entirely against asking Homura to elaborate, but I think the question needs to be a lot more specific, and come with a plan for how to proceed with the conversation from there. Someone earlier likened what we're doing to therapy, but it's impossible to do actual therapy in this format, and we'd very likely fail at it anyway. We can't just slowly talk around each of her issues until she's more comfortable being open about them; not unless we're willing to let Brinapilot do it with some general guidelines from us.
@Vebyast has convinced me of the futility of the completely passive approach. I'm not entirely against asking Homura to elaborate, but I think the question needs to be a lot more specific, and come with a plan for how to proceed with the conversation from there. Someone earlier likened what we're doing to therapy, but it's impossible to do actual therapy in this format, and we'd very likely fail at it anyway. We can't just slowly talk around each of her issues until she's more comfortable being open about them; not unless we're willing to let Brinapilot do it with some general guidelines from us.
[X] Godwinson
Aren't those points sort of counterproductive to each other?
Right now, I tihnk I prefer keeping eye contact to hugs. If physical contact is needed then Sabrina could hold Homura's hand
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- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
I'm comparing actively ATM.
My first comment to you is about a "Silver Bullet." We know what that is? We find out by interviewing Homura? We proceed without benefit of the "Silver Bullet?"
I tried to completely decompose both of our votes for comparison. Tell me if you accept this as a representation?
HeroCycle vote::
awareness notes
empathy skill how-to
Challenge "I don't deserve" Maybe by cognitive dissonance, maybe by Madowish. Choice according to context.
Define pain, more empathy. Let her direct. Use therapy style.
PTSD topic
Safely answer her further questions add context.
Vebyast vote::
Tone: Caring, empathetic, supportive.
Counter her statement, invoke Madoka.
Madowish topic
Repeat and encourage as above
Each vote goes after one basic issue. The Narrator has a fork for two issues.
Is the vote I propose passive, yes or no? Did I fail to allow for a long view, where further issues and reinforcement will happen?
My reading says that you wish to "deflect" her self-destructive thoughts. Do you have a step-by-step technique to get that result? Can Sabrina already do that for you? I submit your plan is weak on execution specifics. Deflect. How to stack the sentences together to get the message across is non-obvious.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I'm thinking there's no need to rush.
Homu is not a problem to be fixed.
Trying to fix her problems ASAP will hurt her. She's opened herself to us, something which costs her a lot. We should reassure, not just that she does deserve happiness, but that she can open herself to us and that we won't hurt her for it.
We don't need to make breakthroughs. If we can go through this conversation without making Homura regret leaving herself vulnerable to us, that's progress. That's trust that she can do this, that we won't take her moment of vulnerability as a chance, as a moment in which we'll try to shove 'fixes' down her throat.
Let's take our time. We can. We need to, in order to not betray Homura's trust.
Kaizuki, Aranfan, DB_Explorer, Briefvoice, Redshirt Army, Onmur, Omniatrix
Can we consolidate?
Red made the 'deserve' point less specific, and I think that'll work better, as it should address whichever fears Homura is thinking specifically. It's already in her mind. We can simply deny it. The additional details, basically praising Homura, I think could help.
Homu is not a problem to be fixed.
Trying to fix her problems ASAP will hurt her. She's opened herself to us, something which costs her a lot. We should reassure, not just that she does deserve happiness, but that she can open herself to us and that we won't hurt her for it.
We don't need to make breakthroughs. If we can go through this conversation without making Homura regret leaving herself vulnerable to us, that's progress. That's trust that she can do this, that we won't take her moment of vulnerability as a chance, as a moment in which we'll try to shove 'fixes' down her throat.
Let's take our time. We can. We need to, in order to not betray Homura's trust.
Kaizuki, Aranfan, DB_Explorer, Briefvoice, Redshirt Army, Onmur, Omniatrix
Can we consolidate?
Red made the 'deserve' point less specific, and I think that'll work better, as it should address whichever fears Homura is thinking specifically. It's already in her mind. We can simply deny it. The additional details, basically praising Homura, I think could help.
- Location
- Illinois
Godwinson is right and I... I know how to write this vote now.
Godwinson pointed out that Homura and repression are so tightly connected that we can't really rely on her to just tell us what's wrong. What we did last vote was to give her a statement to agree or disagree with instead of asking her to make the statement, and that needs to be standard practice for this sort of interaction with her
We could run a micro-vote this round, which would look like this:
[] Standing:
-[] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[] Continuous cleanse.
[] You don't agree with that.
-[] Motion for her to hold on. You need to ask her a couple more questions and then, if you're right about their answers, you'll have an explanation for her.
--[] Does she feel that she doesn't deserve happiness because of her actions in the loops?
---[] If no, break. If yes, does she feel that her actions in the loops have hurt Madoka?
And that would be viable.
I'd rather not. I'd rather do the following, in order to give Firn enough material to really write.
The Godwinson vote -- and the Vebyast vote before it -- are flawed due to missing some necessary detailwork, some prep, and a healthy serving of having spent 10+ hours looping Homura angsting while thinking about how to do this. There's a lot of opportunity in this to step on landmines much like we did when we metabombed Mami, and there's a lot of framing necessary to... I'm not going to say avoid them, I'm going to say that it's a matter of defusing and mitigating long enough to get an entire picture across.
[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
[X] You don't agree with that.
-[X] Motion for her to hold on. You need to ask her a couple more questions and then, if you're right about their answers, you'll have an explanation for her.
--[X] Does she feel that she doesn't deserve happiness because of her actions in the loops?
---[X] If no, break. If yes, does she feel that her actions in the loops have hurt Madoka?
----[X] If no, break. If yes, proceed to next line.
[X] You have a story to tell her, based on information that she is currently missing, which is going to completely upend her perspective on the loops. In its entirety, it will help her -- and she needs that help. She has never been so close to ultimate victory and she has never been so vulnerable as she currently is. If the Incubator were to find a way to break her now... You have no idea what you would do. Everything would go out the window.
-[X] Thing is, the individual pieces of that story? They're going to hurt her, you think. Maybe a lot. Maybe right up until the last one slots in.
The second to last line might stand a bit of editing. The general theme of "you need to let me get the entire picture across, even if the individual parts hurt" needs to stand. The reasoning involved in it ("She has never been so close to ultimate victory and she has never been so vulnerable as she currently is. If the Incubator were to find a way to break her now... You have no idea what you would do. Everything would go out the window.") I'm not so certain of the particulars of.
That vote should be enough to flesh out a full update. I'm processing a rewrite of the "abeyance" to improve on some stuff I felt was lacking in the last version, and I will post that when I'm done.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
It's not "prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled even though she isn't the one saving Madoka." It's "preventing her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled by refuting the idea that she isn't the one saving Madoka."
I suppose I could reword it to remove any ambiguities.
Given how taciturn Homura is, if the only thing we do is ask her to express herself, then I suspect that the next update would only be a couple of paragraphs.
I feel like Homura's given us some pretty clear indications (by Homura standards) of what's bothering her. At the end of the update previous, it was a sense of inadequacy. After the latest update, when she was reminded of Madoka's fate in the last timeline, it's also guilt. I don't think it's a bad idea to try to get her to be a little more forthcoming, but ultimately I think we should be trying to make her feel better. And I don't think that hammering on the open wound that is the end of the last loop is the way to do that.
Delving into that in depth might be necessary for therapy, but this isn't therapy; we're not qualified for therapy. We're not going to cure Homura in a single timestop session. I'm not sure that we can fix Homura at all; we're not psychiatrists. Certainly we're not going to be able to do so before the end of the month.
What we can do is comfort her, counter her self-loathing, encourage her self-worth, and try to make her not feel so miserable.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I think this could use some more reassuring - as she is right now, Homura could interpret these as accusations, or confirmation.
I mean, Brinapilot could handle it, but...
I feel we should consider explicitly presenting this as a theory.
Homu could be hurt by learning about it, as pointed out; it might be an easier pill for her to swallow if she can think of it as an hypothetical until she has all the facts.
Perhaps get rid of the current phrasing, and leave it to Brinapilot, to fit the moment in the update it gets brought up. Use third person, basically.
I think we should not tell her about the Incubators breaking her. I think it would scare Homura, but wouldn't really add anything?
- Location
- Illinois
I think it's hard to take those that way coming directly after us outright disagree with her saying that she doesn't deserve happiness. But... How about this?
[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
[X] You don't agree with that.
-[X] Motion for her to hold on. You need to ask her a couple more questions to help you make sure you understand why she feels that way, and then, if you're right about their answers, you'll have an explanation for her.
--[X] Does she feel that she doesn't deserve happiness because of her actions in the loops?
---[X] If no, break. If yes, does she feel that her actions in the loops have hurt Madoka?
----[X] If no, break. If yes, proceed to next line.
As for this, I'm inclined to agree with it, just... There is a thought that if we can tie her being helped to ensuring that she'll win, then she will listen. We could -- and probably should -- just let her trust us, though... Yeah, I think I'm gonna take that argument.
The stuff about this being a theory... I'd really prefer to stick with "story." "Theory" implies we feel that it could be wrong. But the fact of the matter is that the core points of it -- that Madoka wouldn't have accepted the results of any of the loops, that Madoka would have chosen to keep going, that Madoka is invested in having Homura stay safe, and most importantly that Homura never hurt Madoka because Madoka wanted Homura to keep trying -- these things are factual. We know these things. The details might vary, but the truths they carry do not.
[X] You have a story to tell her, based on information that she is currently missing, which is going to completely upend her perspective on the loops. In its entirety, it will help her -- and she needs that help.
-[X] Thing is, the individual pieces of that story? They're going to hurt her, you think. Maybe a lot. Maybe right up until the last one slots in.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Keep in mind that this isn't court-ordered therapy. Homura's participation is voluntary.
If the things we're talking about get too painful for her, it's entirely possible that she could drop us from timestop and walk away.
If the things we're talking about get too painful for her, it's entirely possible that she could drop us from timestop and walk away.
- Location
- Illinois
Why do you think I'm putting so much effort into -- why do you think I'm writing this???
Yeah, I'm aware of that.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I wasn't addressing you specifically. You just happened to ninja my post.
However, just because you tell someone that it's for their own good doesn't mean that they're going to listen when being told something painful. Otherwise, people wouldn't need to stage interventions.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
[X] Kaizuki
You hear that, @Firnagzen? If you dare have Brina be even slightly insensitive to her dear friend Homu, I will break through all the proxies needed in order to slap you. Even if I have to do mortal kombat with Firnbot in order to get at you.
I'll... trust Brinapilot to reassure Homu in her time of need.
You hear that, @Firnagzen? If you dare have Brina be even slightly insensitive to her dear friend Homu, I will break through all the proxies needed in order to slap you. Even if I have to do mortal kombat with Firnbot in order to get at you.
- Location
- Illinois
Same. Homura is... If Mami is Sabrina's SO, then Homura is her best friend. We're here with the goal of helping her, not hurting her.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Mami - Best.
Homura - Best Friend.
Kirika - Best Buddy (totally different).
Sayaka - Best Kouhai (yeah I know, only kouhai, still best one!)
Kyouko - Best Tsundere Friend.
Nagisa - Best Imouto.
Madoka - Best Deity.
Hitomi - Best Rich Friend.
Oriko - Best Prisoner?
Junko - Best Grandma.
Tomohisa - Best Grandpa.
Tatsuya - Best Uncle.
Noriko - Best Wisher.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Exactly what story are you planning to tell, here? You've never said.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
[x] Kaizuki
- Location
- Illinois
It's only the only thing I've been talking about for the last ten pages, the only thing half the rest of the thread has been talking about for the last ten pages, and the subject of that gargantuan essay I wrote during this voting cycle. mCooperative literally sigged it and you didn't notice it? And you just, I don't know, assumed that I never talked about it instead of looking to see if I had and running into the gargantuan essay or the exclamatory commentary surrounding it? You could not have missed it if you had just looked. Not with comments like "I'm +1ing Kaizuki's entire post" and "I would like to give you All The Ratings. Also: Could I have permission put a link to your entire post in my signature?"