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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kaizuki said:
I think it's hard to take those that way coming directly after us outright disagree with her saying that she doesn't deserve happiness. But... How about this?

[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
[X] You don't agree with that.
-[X] Motion for her to hold on. You need to ask her a couple more questions to help you make sure you understand why she feels that way, and then, if you're right about their answers, you'll have an explanation for her.
--[X] Does she feel that she doesn't deserve happiness because of her actions in the loops?
---[X] If no, break. If yes, does she feel that her actions in the loops have hurt Madoka?
----[X] If no, break. If yes, proceed to next line.



As for this, I'm inclined to agree with it, just... There is a thought that if we can tie her being helped to ensuring that she'll win, then she will listen. We could -- and probably should -- just let her trust us, though... Yeah, I think I'm gonna take that argument.

The stuff about this being a theory... I'd really prefer to stick with "story." "Theory" implies we feel that it could be wrong. But the fact of the matter is that the core points of it -- that Madoka wouldn't have accepted the results of any of the loops, that Madoka would have chosen to keep going, that Madoka is invested in having Homura stay safe, and most importantly that Homura never hurt Madoka because Madoka wanted Homura to keep trying -- these things are factual. We know these things. The details might vary, but the truths they carry do not.

[X] You have a story to tell her, based on information that she is currently missing, which is going to completely upend her perspective on the loops. In its entirety, it will help her -- and she needs that help.
-[X] Thing is, the individual pieces of that story? They're going to hurt her, you think. Maybe a lot. Maybe right up until the last one slots in.
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A word, please?

It appears that what @The Narrator might be saying, is: "produce a condensed linear version of what Brinapilot will insert when you say story." Your variable isn't scoped properly ;)

I read your approach in the past, and understand it. But your vote text is not a perfect reflection of it without 'the story.' Append the story text directly to the vote block?

OTOH, I think the concept of slowing down the proceedings is very agreeable. Thank you.

Disagreement comes from not providing substantial avenues for the immediate future. The issue can only be weakly patched, if one were not trying to undermine Homura's agency to do it. Therefore, we will be patching frequently until we get help to stabilize her in the best manner. Teaching Sabrina more about this process is a valuable sub-goal I don't see in this vote.
 
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Kaizuki said:
[X] You have a story to tell her, based on information that she is currently missing, which is going to completely upend her perspective on the loops. In its entirety, it will help her -- and she needs that help.
-[X] Thing is, the individual pieces of that story? They're going to hurt her, you think. Maybe a lot. Maybe right up until the last one slots in.
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It's possible I'm just bad at social votes (in fact, I know I am, I usually try to stay far away from them). But to me, this comes across as supremely arrogant and condescending. Please reconsider the wording?
 
Kaizuki said:
[X] You have a story to tell her, based on information that she is currently missing, which is going to completely upend her perspective on the loops. In its entirety, it will help her -- and she needs that help.
-[X] Thing is, the individual pieces of that story? They're going to hurt her, you think. Maybe a lot. Maybe right up until the last one slots in.
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I don't really like this line at the end. Part of it is that it just echoes the way we tried to go into the potentialbomb talk, but in general I think this is a kind of approach better suited to Mami than Homura.

Needing encouragement to learn something horrible while noting that things will get better after is Mami's thing. Homura has the opposite need: She strikes me as the sort to jump into headfirst to learn something horrid even if it would hurt her terribly to do so and leave her weaker for it.
 
The real issue, for me, is that I directly question the truth value of the statement [Madoka was fighting alongside Homura all along]. Yes, Madoka has some vague memory bleed and half-remembered quasi-prophetic dreams, but her behaviour in canon PMMM does not incline me to think she carries over enough information for that statement to be valid.

"Fighting Alongside", for me, carries connotations of informed volition that is absent from Madoka (prior to her becoming Madokami and getting a full timeline data dump, anyway).

Furthermore, while the theory is unfalsifiable, that's a double edged sword - it's also unprovable. In my personal experience, when someone feels they're irredeemable, they don't jump at chances to discard that train of thought - rather, they actively reject attempts to convince them otherwise. Homura's behaviour in Rebellion seems to match my observations.

In that context, there seems to be a solid chance that Homura will reject the rationale behind this argument entirely. "Silver Bullets" really aren't all they're touted as in this context - psychological issues are not a logic puzzle, and treating this situation as one because "this is a quest, there must be a single solution that resolves the issue" is misguided.
 
If we want some pithy answer, it's probably something like "learning to see yourself as a human being again, instead of a machine". Don't have to go into the creepy part about how she's been an excellent piece and so we think she deserves no less.
 
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Conjured Blade said:
Now the question is what kind of perspective without seeming exploitive/ creepy/manipulative.

For example: "If you can't see yourself as a human being right now that's fine. I'll be here for you until you can because as the piece I use to protect Madoka, as a force multiplier of this aspiring Shadow Government, you have performed well. You deserve no less."

It's a perspective. If Homura can only see herself as a tool then she's a very good one and that's why we'll be there for her to help her learn to see herself as a human being again.( Edit:It gives her an outlet/source of self-worth until she can realize for herself her life has value.)

The problem is it's creepy as hell and I have no idea how to make it less creepy or how to put it in a non-creepy way right now.
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I'll try to summarize.

The situation is as follows:
  1. Homura Wished to be the one to protect Madoka.
  2. Homura is working off a demand by Madoka to "not let her be tricked into Wishing again".
  3. Madoka needs to Help.
  4. Madoka Wished for everything to be fixed.
Homura's problems are basically as follows:
  • Conflict between 1 and 4: Homura needs to be the one to protect Madoka, but everything we're doing right now is only possible because Madokami made a Wish for everything to be fixed, necessarily including that Madoka needs to come out safe. This leaves Homura feeling like she wasn't the one to protect Madoka. I will note that I am being extremely careful with "needs" and "feeling like"/"believes": Homura's Wish means that she needs to be the one to protect Madoka, but she believes that she hasn't done so.
  • Conflict between 2 and 4: Homura believes that any Wish by Madoka is necessarily bad, but everything we're doing is only made possible by Madoka's Wish to Fix Everything.
  • Conflict between 1 and 3: Homura needs to be the one to protect Madoka, but (thanks to nearly zero self-worth) will credit success in this endeavor to anyone other than herself, including Madoka, who will by 3 almost certainly be doing something. Seriously, if Homura jumped in front of a bullet for Madoka and Madoka went over afterward to slap a band-aid over the hole, Homura would decide she's failed because Madoka had to help her survive it.
  • Conflict between 2 and 3: Homura believes that any Wish by Madoka is bad, but Madoka (thanks to low self-worth) has trouble seeing anything she can do to help that doesn't involve Wishing.
  • Conflict between 3 and 4, though this is less relevant to Homura: Madoka already helped, pretty much as much as she possibly could, but she doesn't have any memory of doing so and needs a way to continue to help.
The key to solving these will be wherever I say "believes" or "feeling", simply because those are the only degrees of freedom that we have to work with. To that end:
  • We need to change what Homura believes about the meaning of "Being the one to protect Madoka" so that Madoka's Wish to Fix Everything hasn't protected Madoka.
  • We need to change Homura's belief about Madowishes being inherently bad.
  • We need to change Homura's belief about her actions during the loops so she thinks she was successfully protecting Madoka, or we have to give her an opportunity to protect Madoka that will satisfy her once and for all.
  • We need to change either change Madoka's feelings about helping, so that she's not continuously fighting Homura, or we have to give her an opportunity to help that will satisfy her once and for all.
Redshirt Army said:
In that context, there seems to be a solid chance that Homura will reject the rationale behind this argument entirely. "Silver Bullets" really aren't all they're touted as in this context - psychological issues are not a logic puzzle, and treating this situation as one because "this is a quest, there must be a single solution that resolves the issue" is misguided.
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Unfortunately, since the quest format is fundamentally incapable of putting forth sustained effort, it's silver bullet or nothing.

We succeeded with Mami because she demanded exactly what she needed, did so loudly and obviously at every opportunity, could be helped with a single-word vote that never varied and never depended on context or circumstances, and needed something that was exactly in line with what the voters naturally wanted to do. And we still only barely succeeded - I'm sure you remember how often we had to fight down people that wanted to witchbomb her for her own safety, and how often we hurt her by balking at the wrong time because we were afraid of controlling her.

Homura will need something complicated that will have to be carefully adjusted based on the situation. She won't tell us what she needs or when she needs it. We'll have to remember to go out of our way to help her. And we'll be fighting the thread the entire time.

The last time we had that set of requirements, it was Sayaka feeling like she was not contributing to the team, and we ended up ignoring her long enough that she went and Wished to be helpful. In other words, complete and utter failure.

There is zero chance we'll be able to handle the complications that'd be posed by a "conventional" sustained-support approach to Homura. If we can't fix her in the span of three or four votes, or at least get her far enough along that what's left is just a formality, we can't fix her at all.
 
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Vebyast said:
We either fix her in the span of three or four votes, or at least get her far enough along that what's left is just a formality, or we don't fix her at all.
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It's the second one. "Fixing" Homura is a process that will take years longer than the span of the quest. I don't doubt it's possible, but as you say, we're not in a position to provide the help she needs - and moreover, with Walpurgisnacht and Feathers still ahead, the challenge will be increased even further.

The best I'm hoping for right now is a bandaid, and in that context overturning Homura's perception of Madoka in the loops is a very risky proposition.
 
Redshirt Army said:
It's the second one. "Fixing" Homura is a process that will take years longer than the span of the quest. I don't doubt it's possible, but as you say, we're not in a position to provide the help she needs - and moreover, with Walpurgisnacht and Feathers still ahead, the challenge will be increased even further.

The best I'm hoping for right now is a bandaid, and in that context overturning Homura's perception of Madoka in the loops is a very risky proposition.
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Unfortunately, every good explanation we have of Feathers is that she's Homura's Witch. So we fix Homura, to the point where witching out is no longer in her future, or Feathers kills us.
 
[x]Easier said then done I suspect, but learning to see yourself as a human being again instead of a machine. You're the reason a sizable chunk of what we built is even possible. My time is finite. I can't be everywhere at once. Catching Oriko, the gold to take in refugees and fund Sayaka's tutoring, saving Sayaka from Feathers in the first place and being an amazing force multiplier in general. For that, I think you deserve no less. And if Sayaka or Mami knew what I knew, I don't doubt they'd agree with me.
-[x]If you hadn't been here I probably would have needed to gamble the apocalypse on Madoka being able to replicate my wish due to not being able to be everywhere at once. So make no mistake, you are still protecting her. You're just doing it with infrastructure at your back as one of the four territory lords of Mitakihara here.
 
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Vebyast said:
Unfortunately, every good explanation we have of Feathers is that she's Homura's Witch. So we fix Homura, to the point where witching out is no longer in her future, or Feathers kills us.
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I honestly think defeating Feathers directly is going to be easier then getting Homura to be mentally stable in the ~2.5 weeks we have left before Walpurgisnacht.
 
Vebyast said:
I guess we should really get working on time travel, instant griefhax, conceptual fix-everything fields, and barrier research, then?
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I'd like all that shit, sure, but you're missing the point. Saying that we need to fix Homura in "the span of three or four votes" is treating her as a point-and-click adventure puzzle and not as a person. The narrative deadline of Feathers doesn't change that.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'd like all that shit, sure, but you're missing the point. Saying that we need to fix Homura in "the span of three or four votes" is treating her as a point-and-click adventure puzzle and not as a person. The narrative deadline of Feathers doesn't change that.
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If the thread was a person, we could sit down to help people with their problems for more than ten minutes at a time. If I thought we could vote to listen and respond to Homura for thirty or fifty votes in a row I'd be all for doing it. But we aren't a person, it's a major achievement for us to maintain focus for three votes in a row, and I don't think that we can sit down to help people with their problems for more than ten minutes at a time. So we work with what we have.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I honestly think defeating Feathers directly is going to be easier then getting Homura to be mentally stable in the ~2.5 weeks we have left before Walpurgisnacht.
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To be fair Homura doesn't need to be stable for Walpurgisnacht in order to prevent Homucifer*, she only needs to be stable enough to not go Homucifer by that time.

Fixing Homura's issues should come with time, but that's outside the time scope of the quest. It's part of the reason I want to make the promise of eventually showing Homura she's a person worthy of happiness, you know.


* if she's really the source of the feathers

Vebyast said:
2. Madoka Wished for everything to be fixed.
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Not exactly. Madoka wished everything could be fixed, meaing things still need fixing, and that's where Homura enters.

Good luck convincing Homura of that without triggering her other issues, however.
 
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Refining my second part a bit.

[x]Easier said then done I suspect, but learning to see yourself as a human being again instead of a machine. You're the reason a sizable chunk of what we built is even possible. My time is finite. I can't be everywhere at once. Catching Oriko, the gold to take in refugees and fund Sayaka's tutoring, saving Sayaka from Feathers in the first place and being an amazing force multiplier in general. For that, I think you deserve no less. And if Sayaka or Mami knew what I knew, I don't doubt they'd agree with me.
-[x]Without the resources you provided me, the most protection I could provide would be ensuring Madoka knew to try replicating my wish. I'm a mysterious amnesiac. I can't follow her into places like school without causing a stir. I am as subtle as a truck. So make no mistake, you are still protecting her. You're just doing it as one of the four territory lords of Mitakihara, with infrastructure at your back.
 
Kaizuki said:
You mean metabomb?
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Nah, the aborted potentialbomb talk:

First went like this before Firn spoke up the first time
-[] One more thing:
-[] Make an analogy: Homura knows how the Lich/Witchbombs affect some meguca more than others, and how Kyuubey uses those bombs to make girls despair.
-[] Kyuubey's got one such bomb for Homura.
-[] Promise Homura the same you promised Mami. We'll tell her the truth, if she wants. And it's not as bad as it might seem.
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Then went like this for a while before Firn spoke up the second time: (though I forget the actual tally and final form of the vote)

[] A final warning: Kyubey has an infohazard on her, which could be harmful to her if he tricks her into drawing the conclusions that he wants her to draw. She knows how Kyubey lies by omission.
-[] You some ideas. You can implore her not to listen to Kyubey. You can try to prevent Kyubey from communicating with her. Or you can try to "defuse" the infohazard.
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Your vote is giving me the same vibes as the second iteration there.

(On another note, I'm quite interested in Firn's old words that he left hints as to what the consequences of telling Homura could be. I should... proooobably devote a reading to collating that evidence on various theories. Current thoughts are trending towards Echoes being tied to our metaknowledge (as opposed to past timelines), and Homura having a case of them.)
 
[x] Main goals, in no particular order:
-[x] Encourage Homura to believe in her own value, and in a good future.
-[x] Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
-[x] Explain, as best and clearly as possible, everything Homura indicates she wants or needs to know.
-[x] Encourage Homura to say what she's feeling, and listen to what she says... and doesn't say.
[x] Overall tone and subtext:
-[x] Optimistic and certain this loop will succeed.
-[x] Comforting and encouraging.
--[x] Don't make Homura feel like our sidekick. Make her feel like she's the hero... like she's our hero.
-[x] Don't steamroll over Homura with speeches, let her express herself.
-[x] Don't continue to push a particular topic if it's upsetting her.
[x] Reaffirm that Homura can do this and deserves a happy ending.
-[x] She's spent more than a decade putting herself through a Sisyphean purgatory to save someone she loves. If anyone deserves a happy ending, it's her.
-[x] Homura is our friend, the closest thing we have to family, and we care about her. We want her to be happy.
--[x] Not just Sabrina, but everyone. Mami, Sayaka, Hitomi and most of all Madoka. Even if they don't know what she's been through, they all care about her and want her to be happy.
-[x] Even after Walpurgisnacht is beaten, we're never going to give up on Homura. We'll do everything we can to help her be happy.
[x] Homura will save Madoka, and all of us will do everything we can to help her.
-[x] Meanwhile, Sabrina is going to save everyone, and wouldn't mind having Homura's help.
-[x] Homura is not alone anymore. She has someone else who knows the truth and wants to help her.
-[x] If Homura is feeling that she is not fulfilling her wish, that she is useless because she is not able to be the one protecting Madoka or other feelings of inadequacy, then remind her of how much good she's done.
--[x] Without her, it all would have been over in the first timeline. It's only because of her that we got this far.
--[x] Sabrina can only do so much. It's only because of Homura that we even had a chance.
---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
---[x] Holding down the fort while Sabrina rushes off to deal with out-of-town crises
---[x] Timestop as an epic force multiplier, or letting us get there in the nick of time.
---[x] Tracking down Oriko
---[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
---[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
---[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
--[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that Sabrina is just here to help her.

@Torgamous may want to change their proxy, as Narrator dropped their plan due to predicted busyness keeping them from updating it.

Really really starting to dislike proxy-voting...I get the idea of "constantly updating as discussion continutes", but having votes go from a detailed approach with specific issues.... and getting dumped into two-lines focused on entirely different strategies like several past votes have gone.... it gives the impression that if you can't devote all your time to the quest then you shouldn't bother as a prolific few will run everything.

Kaizuki said:
It's only the only thing I've been talking about for the last ten pages, the only thing half the rest of the thread has been talking about for the last ten pages, and the subject of that gargantuan essay I wrote during this voting cycle. mCooperative literally sigged it and you didn't notice it? And you just, I don't know, assumed that I never talked about it instead of looking to see if I had and running into the gargantuan essay or the exclamatory commentary surrounding it? You could not have missed it if you had just looked. Not with comments like "I'm +1ing Kaizuki's entire post" and "I would like to give you All The Ratings. Also: Could I have permission put a link to your entire post in my signature?"
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Firnagzen said:
I'm incredibly busy these days, and I frequently only have time to skim the thread. This means that I may miss context and important points.

So what I'm saying is that if adhering to the wordcount means you lose clarity, then forget that wordcount.

Speaking of which, I've removed said wordcount for this vote. :V
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Considering the Firnquote, specifically that he doesn't always have time to read ten pages of discussion (and whether its the first time after update, the last ten before he starts writing, or some random sampling I don't really know) , you may want to expand a bit past two lines to include your desired story, or at least include a direct link to the essay in your vote or something?

EDIT: I thought I'd seen a post where you just had the last two lines of your vote, and the rest of it wasn't X'd earlier in the post. Seems like all of it is when i go back to look, but it still feels a relevant rebuttal to your reaction to Narrator's question.

Redshirt Army said:
It's the second one. "Fixing" Homura is a process that will take years longer than the span of the quest. I don't doubt it's possible, but as you say, we're not in a position to provide the help she needs - and moreover, with Walpurgisnacht and Feathers still ahead, the challenge will be increased even further.
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This seems to be an argument I keep hearing in here, along with desires to let Brinapilot handle too much and going with ultra short "vague intent" votes that are only really enough for an update if you've been keeping up with multiple pages of discussion...... "We surely can't fix Homura within the quest , so lets just dabble at it rather than really focus on it" , "We can't achieve de-witching within the quest, so lets just share the idea a bit and not kidnap Niko and others for a dedicated science session like our barrier days" , "We can't do anything to help Kyubey's entropy problem so lets not worry beyond random inspirations like Tarski paradox" .....

What exactly do you see as the focus of the Quest? Beyond a boss battle with Walpurgisnacht, what /is/ the goal or goals we're meant to bother attempting because we can fix it during the quest (that is, what achievement or failure will result in Quest Complete) ?? Madoka did a damned good try of it in 13 episodes, and didn't have a deity explicitly empowering her towards "you CAN fix EVERYTHING actually" for fucks sake. What do you even think happens post-Walpurgisnacht if we haven't gotten at least as far in "Fixing" Homura as we have with Mami?
 
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Racoras said:
What exactly do you see as the focus of the Quest? Beyond a boss battle with Walpurgisnacht, what /is/ the goal or goals we're meant to bother attempting because we can fix it during the quest (that is, what achievement or failure will result in Quest Complete) ??
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Another boss encounter with Feathers.

A while back we had someone say he felt like he couldn't participate in voting anymore because he knew how the quest ended. Since then I've been working under the impression that this is basically Mass Effect 3 and we should prolong the non-ending part as long as possible and try to enjoy the journey for its own sake, because once we get to the end we're just deciding which color Feathers explodes into.
 
This is final. I swear to god I'm not altering another word of this unless Aura, Godwinson, or Firn himself tell me to. I can't.

And to everyone who is saying that we can't possibly help Homura...

Racoras is right. So you... you're wrong.

It's not wrong to hope.

[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
[X] You don't agree with that.
-[X] Motion for her to hold on. You need to ask her a couple more questions to help you make sure you understand why she feels that way, and then, if you're right about their answers, you'll have an explanation for her.
--[X] Does she feel that she doesn't deserve happiness because of her actions in the loops?
---[X] If no, break. If yes, does she feel that her actions in the loops have hurt Madoka?
----[X] If no, break. If yes, proceed to next line.
[X] Ask her if she is aware that Madoka dreams about her before they meet each loop.
-[X] Give her a small amount of time to react and break to voting.

AND THAT LAST EDIT WAS BECAUSE I HAD MEANT TO ADD THAT LINE THE FIRST TIME

and if you're one of those people here to tell me to change something do it over PM by discord please I'm so totally not looking at this thread again tonight otherwise
 
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Torgamous said:
Another boss encounter with Feathers.

A while back we had someone say he felt like he couldn't participate in voting anymore because he knew how the quest ended. Since then I've been working under the impression that this is basically Mass Effect 3 and we should prolong the non-ending part as long as possible and try to enjoy the journey for its own sake, because once we get to the end we're just deciding which color Feathers explodes into.
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Oh come on, have more faith in me than that, why don't you?

I mean, it's an end point. I know the general shape of it, because I've got an outline of PMAS that I laid out. That... doesn't mean that you don't have agency to further shape that ending.
 
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