Well, that's one thing, but I'm just... baffled by the notion that having a known endpoint means that the choices made up to and during that point aren't impactful.
Yeah, I can agree there and see little reason to reserve our ambitions. We're playing a person with the desire to fix everything, so why plan to stop at the end of week five?
Especially as a longer term view of things can be the difference in my mind between a tone of "you beat Walpurgisnacht but you took shortcuts you perhaps should not have and the one day, not far distant, that bill will come due," something more neutral and hollow due to just not having plans, and "This is naught but the end of the beginning, and the seeds you have planted here shows every sign of growing into something truly beautiful."
Oh come on, have more faith in me than that, why don't you?
I mean, it's an end point. I know the general shape of it, because I've got an outline of PMAS that I laid out. That... doesn't mean that you don't have agency to further shape that ending.
Well, that's one thing, but I'm just... baffled by the notion that having a known endpoint means that the choices made up to and during that point aren't impactful.
Kind of the opposite, actually? Using Sayaka Quest as an example, it was always going to end with us boarding Walpurgisnacht, then fighting in the city, then keeping it from crashing. Who we had or hadn't befriended before that really only affected who was involved in the fight and how we befriended them didn't matter at all.
It's not that it renders the previous choices irrelevant in general, but it can mean I can check out of the climax and come back for the epilogue without missing anything I care about. Though, unlike Sayaka Quest, I might not here because Mami and Sabrina combo attacks are cute.
Also, my memory is unreliable and I thought it was Mister Bad Guy.
This is final. I swear to god I'm not altering another word of this unless Aura, Godwinson, or Firn himself tell me to. I can't.
And to everyone who is saying that we can't possibly help Homura...
Racoras is right. So you... you're wrong.
It's not wrong to hope.
[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
[X] You don't agree with that.
-[X] Motion for her to hold on. You need to ask her a couple more questions to help you make sure you understand why she feels that way, and then, if you're right about their answers, you'll have an explanation for her.
--[X] Does she feel that she doesn't deserve happiness because of her actions in the loops?
---[X] If no, break. If yes, does she feel that her actions in the loops have hurt Madoka?
----[X] If no, break. If yes, proceed to next line.
[X] Ask her if she is aware that Madoka dreams about her before they meet each loop.
-[X] Give her a small amount of time to react and break to voting.
AND THAT LAST EDIT WAS BECAUSE I HAD MEANT TO ADD THAT LINE THE FIRST TIME
and if you're one of those people here to tell me to change something do it over PM by discord please I'm so totally not looking at this thread again tonight otherwise
At this point, I'll take a bit of a risk. Somewhere in February, my fandom suddenly included the goal to have "route ending" cut scenes to accompany PMAS at its conclusion. Not listening if there is a slight mismatch, due to comedy! This is my first mention of them. One of the "incomplete" "good" route ends in my queue would be a CMV. And it would perfectly tie in with the sort of dialog that might be upcoming IC. But only if someone doesn't mind crossovers, because, me!
Few things because apparently I physically cannot stop myself from thinking about this.
We could abort after this vote by voting in a "Madoka some transmission through time -> could have given up but didn't -> never hurt Madoka" and leaving it at that
Onmur us right this is a theory and we will say so
Few things because apparently I physically cannot stop myself from thinking about this.
We could abort after this vote by voting in a "Madoka some transmission through time -> could have given up but didn't -> never hurt Madoka" and leaving it at that
Onmur us right this is a theory and we will say so
Let's ask Homura to give us time to SCIENCE! and crossover into Meow Quest, then ask Homura to cat Homura.
I believe this will solve all our problems.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 21, 2018 at 1:23 AM, finished with 175 posts and 15 votes.
[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
-[X] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura time to compose herself.
-[X] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka, break -- that is indicative that the intended point has been made.
-[X] Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make.
[X] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura goes back in time. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares. (Main point: Madoka endorses Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead)
-[X] Provide evidence for the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
-[X] If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: explanation at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
--[X] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura. (Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
[x] Goal: Homura needs a new viewpoint:
-[x] That implies her success
-[x] That permits Madoka to have made a Wish
-[x] That doesn't imply she's been causing suffering for Madoka
-[x] That promises a good outcome
[X] Approach:
-[x] Show empathy - physical /emotional support, check her understanding as you go, give her time to compose herself when necessary, etc.
-[x] Softly lead Homura to the goal; don't dictate or push. Take care to keep her open and listening, so she doesn't close off.
--[x] You don't need to get it all done on the spot. She just needs to be stable enough that you can keep working on it with her.
-[x] Provide supporting evidence when prompted or appropriate.
-[X] Cleanse as needed.
[X] Observation: Madoka thinks that Homura is helping.
-[x] Madoka's dreams only give her instincts and impressions, but those instincts and impressions tell her to trust Homura. In her dreams, Homura is the hero fighting to protect her.
-[x] Madoka would stay away if she felt that Homura was hurting her or causing problems. She believes that she's best off with Homura there for her. [x] Gently, without pushing: -[x] It's only because of Homura that things can be saved. If Homura had given up, at any point... everything would be gone. Madoka, Mami, Sayaka, the very world itself. And if she hadn't been so very, very, unimaginably strong, Sabrina wouldn't exist. -[x] Homura is, and was, protecting Madoka. You owe everything to her. Without her labour, none of this would be the slightest bit possible. -[x] Madoka wasn't tricked. And now, in this time, Madoka doesn't need to make a wish. You think this is what Madoka wanted when she asked Homura for her promise.
-[x] Reiterate that everything will be okay.
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
[x] Long-term goal: Help Homura believe that the loops weren't failures. In particular:
-[x] Progress was being made on "not being tricked" with every loop, and her Wish last loop was sufficiently well informed.
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura wasn't perfectly successful immediately.
[x] Start with your conclusions to help get Homura back on an even keel:
-[x] Madoka's dreams tell her to trust Homura. This means that she thinks Homura has been doing the right thing and that she's working with Homura.
-[x] Madoka was learning with every loop. Homura's perseverance and protection are how she could make a Wish without being tricked.
[x] Supporting evidence, use as appropriate:
-[x] Examples demonstrating Madoka's dreams. You're pretty sure she's asked if they've met before, for example.
-[x] Madoka's trust in Homura isn't her usual general niceness. You think you've seen her unconsciously turning to Homura the same way she does to you.
-[x] If Madoka was being hurt by her memories she'd be behaving completely differently. She's not as strong as Homura is, she'd have given up or worse.
-[x] Madoka could have bad-ended the loops if she'd been tricked into a particularly bad Wish.
-[X] Break to voting if any point needs more detail, or if Homura seems troubled. Don't be pushy.
-[X] Relax. Comment:
--[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
[X] O&K.
-[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
-[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
[X] Everyone.
-[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
-[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
[X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic...
--[X] On Grief.
--[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
[x] Goal: refute Homura's negative self-image and help her feel better about herself.
[X] Approach:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; take care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[x] Show empathy - physical and emotional support, checking her understanding as you go, give Homura time to compose herself, etc.
-[x] Provide supporting evidence as prompted.
-[X] Cleanse as needed.
[X] It's not a bad thing like Homura is thinking. Madoka's dreams aren't scaring or upsetting her.
-[x] In Madoka's dreams, Homura is protecting her. She's the hero fighting on her behalf.
-[x] It's how Madoka knows that Homura is really a good person, even when she's not getting along with her other friends like Sayaka and Mami.
-[x] Madoka knows deep down that Homura is helping her, and has never thought that Homura was hurting her.
[x] We know what sort of hell Homura has put herself through for Madoka's sake, and we also know that Homura's a good person.
Thinking too small Onmur. The surprise Good End early on was probably the optimal one for PMMM, the Cutebey Ending. Just imagine how happy Mami would be if suddenly everything she believed about Kyubey being a cute cuddly little sidekick-pet that helps girls get magic was actually true (through the magic of cat-stereotypes) ?
Of course, we have already seen that one, so I suppose the narrow option to just flavor our unique route is reasonable (But maybe we just need to have Niko incorporate Meowmura elements when she tries to make Jyuubey?)
While you all differ a bit in the details, you all have the same general intent: make Homura feel better about herself. If you could all actually get behind the same vote, you would have a plurality.
I have no confidence in the plan that the others are pursuing. It seems almost certain to make Homura feel worse by reminding her of what she sees as her failures. It doesn't listen to what Homura has actually been telling us over the last two updates about her lack of confidence and self-worth.
I know you all have your own individual ideas about what to say, but what's ultimately more important? That your particular wording gets used, or that we follow the general course of action that you believe in?
WORK TOGETHER. It's the only way that you'll succeed.
Real life is exceedingly busy right now, so this is probably the last thing I'll be able to say here for a day or so. I've given one of you my vote. Use it as you will, so long as you use it together.
While you all differ a bit in the details, you all have the same general intent: make Homura feel better about herself. If you could all actually get behind the same vote, you would have a plurality.
I have no confidence in the plan that the others are pursuing. It seems almost certain to make Homura feel worse by reminding her of what she sees as her failures. It doesn't listen to what Homura has actually been telling us over the last two updates about her lack of confidence and self-worth.
I know you all have your own individual ideas about what to say, but what's ultimately more important? That your particular wording gets used, or that we follow the general course of action that you believe in?
WORK TOGETHER. It's the only way that you'll succeed.
Real life is exceedingly busy right now, so this is probably the last thing I'll be able to say here for a day or so. I've given one of you my vote. Use it as you will, so long as you use it together.
In terms of ambitions and fixing everything, I've always assumed that Sabrina's planning to live for centuries- eons, even; to build an intergalactic, pan-species empire that makes the Culture look like the DPRK; to become the benevolent goddess of despair without wiping herself from existence; to completely dismantle the Incubators, and keep them from pulling something like Rebellion; and generally do what we've always done- run around fixing everything we can fix.
At least, that's what I think when I think "fix everything".
This seems to be an argument I keep hearing in here, along with desires to let Brinapilot handle too much and going with ultra short "vague intent" votes that are only really enough for an update if you've been keeping up with multiple pages of discussion...... "We surely can't fix Homura within the quest , so lets just dabble at it rather than really focus on it" , "We can't achieve de-witching within the quest, so lets just share the idea a bit and not kidnap Niko and others for a dedicated science session like our barrier days" , "We can't do anything to help Kyubey's entropy problem so lets not worry beyond random inspirations like Tarski paradox" .....
What exactly do you see as the focus of the Quest? Beyond a boss battle with Walpurgisnacht, what /is/ the goal or goals we're meant to bother attempting because we can fix it during the quest (that is, what achievement or failure will result in Quest Complete) ?? Madoka did a damned good try of it in 13 episodes, and didn't have a deity explicitly empowering her towards "you CAN fix EVERYTHING actually" for fucks sake. What do you even think happens post-Walpurgisnacht if we haven't gotten at least as far in "Fixing" Homura as we have with Mami?
To "break the system", as it were? Whether that actually means fixing everything, or just undoing the Incubators' little energy farm on Earth, is another thing. As far as I'm concerned, at least, Walpy and Feathers are just here to give us a sense of urgency and an external threat, like Oriko at the start of the quest. Even if we beat them, I don't expect it to magically solve every problem of ours, just like beating Oriko didn't. I'd find it much more satisfying for this quest to end with us metaphorically and literally booting QB out of the solar system, personally.
With that said, I don't think dewitching and at least helping with the energy generation problem are impossible to achieve within our deadline. On the other hand, helping a traumatized person get better is something that takes months or years, and is definitely impossible in two weeks. The best we can really do, is set them on a path to recovery, and this would be the optimal outcome of our conversation with Homura here. We've done the same for Mami - she's not well by any measure, but she's slowly getting better (although she still needs a proper therapist, replacing her original issues with an overdependence on Sabrina is not healthy long-term either).
This is why I think our objective here should be to give Homura a different perspective on herself, something to counter her regular, unhealthy thought patterns. If we just reassure her without any substance behind it, it'll be the proverbial bandaid on an open wound; she'll feel better in the moment, but promptly backslide once left to her own devices.
A while back we had someone say he felt like he couldn't participate in voting anymore because he knew how the quest ended. Since then I've been working under the impression that this is basically Mass Effect 3 and we should prolong the non-ending part as long as possible and try to enjoy the journey for its own sake, because once we get to the end we're just deciding which color Feathers explodes into.
[] Hug Everyone [] Become the Madocifer [] Witch out for Powers [] Microwave Tea
Or something?
Honestly, I don't see any problems with knowing how the story ends. Look at the Belgariad Cycle. You can guess correctly how the story ends by the end of the Book 2. Doesn't mean you don't get to enjoy the story, or the ending.
Besides, we can always screw up horribly and have the thread burnt down to the ground, the ashes scattered by the moderators who'd henceforth swear to never speak of it again. Only... let's not do this.
Anyway.
For now, the vote I agree with the most is
[X] Godwinson
Hmm. Would be interesting to see Homu's reaction to Kai's vote, though.
[Q] Tell Homura that Madoka keeps having dreams about her.
-[Q] ... And her magnificent hair.
So before falling asleep yesternight I had a thought.
I tried to put myself in Sabrina's and Homura's places and just had this sudden thought that was like wow, isn't this fucking obvious?
What if we... who are holding someone that's feeling bad, and opening up, and being vulnerable... give reassurances... and wait just a damn bit.
I'm not saying to break to voting, and I'm not saying Firn will 100% not have us do this, but I'm saying every vote could use a '[] Give Homura a moment' before going into theory talk. You know, let her compose herself so we're not trying to chuck this toolfix right into her heart the moment she chose to open up.
[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse. [X] Disagree as any friend should. Reassure Homura, tell her you have something to say; ask if she needs a moment.
-[X] Motion for her to hold on. You need to ask her a couple more questions to help you make sure you understand why she feels that way, and then, if you're right about their answers, you'll have an explanation for her.
--[X] Does she feel that she doesn't deserve happiness because of her actions in the loops?
---[X] If no, break. If yes, does she feel that her actions in the loops have hurt Madoka?
----[X] If no, break. If yes, proceed to next line.
[X] Ask her if she is aware that Madoka dreams about her before they meet each loop.
-[X] Give her a small amount of time to react and break to voting.
Second thoughts. You have them aplenty, cavorting and consorting with the ever-present doubts. But your first thoughts...
Well, no. Your first thought is just a touch of panic-tinged terror that you're not equipped to give advice to Homura. You know her story. Of course you do. But you haven't been through anything like it before, and for all you know, you're not really qualified to give advice for it.
But-
"I don't agree with that," you say, touching her shoulder gently. "I'd never agree with that, Homura."
She nearly flinches away from you, but doesn't fully retreat.
"May I hug you?" you murmur.
She nods jerkily, and you wrap your arm around her. She doesn't relax, but she doesn't pull away, either. She's tense and stiff, corded tension running like a live wire through her body.
"I can't possibly agree with that," you murmur slowly. "I... may I ask you a few more questions, Homura? I'd... I think I know how you feel, but I'd like to be sure of my thoughts, then I can explain. Do you need a moment?"
She nods, minutely. You smile at her, and wait.
Homura's willing to accept that victory is possible... No. She's always believed that victory was possible. She had to. It's the only thing that kept her moving forward, day after day, loop after loop. She had to believe it, or she would have despaired long ago.
And once upon a never, that was what did cause her to despair. The revelation that she couldn't win, that she was inextricably making things worse by increasing Madoka's potential every loop. That revelation broke her, and it's what Oriko warned you of.
The thing is, believing in victory doesn't mean believing that she could win this time. Victory had always been some far off, unattainable dream, snatched away every single time no matter how hard she sought it. But now...
Now, you think she might, just might, be willing to hope. Just a little.
But she's been hurt so much. She's caused so much pain, and even if only she remembers, she still bears the brands upon her soul.
You grimace to yourself, breathing out slowly. You look at Mami, frozen in the timestop, and even with the faint worry on her face, even with the churning dismay in your gut, you manage to calm yourself a little more. You check Homura's Soul Gem, just to be sure. Clean enough. You'll get to it in a bit, but for now, you'll give Homura the peace she needs to work through this as much as she can.
Seeming to feel your attention, Homura nods, the barest twitch of her head.
"I..." you start slowly. "Homura, I'm your friend. You know that, right?"
She nods again.
"And I'm not trying to hurt you. I wouldn't try to hurt you intentionally. But," you say, licking your lips. "I... would like to know, if you're willing to answer me."
Another tiny bob of her head, and she seems to hunch in upon herself.
"Do... do you feel that you don't deserve happiness because of your actions in the loops?" you murmur gently.
"I-" Homura jerks under your arm, eyes twitching up to stare at you. "You- you know what I've done."
"I know," you say, bowing your head and closing your eyes. "I know, Homura. But I... I had to be sure. I... trust me? I'm going somewhere with this."
Homura's mouth opens, but her voice seems to fail her. She shuts it, and slumps.
"OK," you murmur. "And... do you think what you've done in the loops has hurt Madoka?"
She doesn't even raise her head this time, curling up smaller in your hug. "Yes," she whispers.
"OK," you murmur, nodding. "I- that's the last of the... the personal questions, Homura. I'm sorry. Do you need a moment?"
She doesn't respond, but you can feel her shaking, just a bit. Gently, you draw the Grief away from her Soul Gem, letting it wick away into the frozen air. You pull Homura into a proper hug. She collapses against you, trembling and stiff.
You stroke her back in careful, rhythmic circles. You wonder, vaguely, how long it's been since Homura allowed herself human contact, until you elbowed your way into her life. Everyone's different, but... from what you remember, Homura wasn't one to deny herself the contact, the comfort. Not until she'd been forced to kill Madoka, all those loops ago.
Homura gathers herself, her trembling slowly stilling. You pull back and smile at her.
"Alright," you murmur. "Then... Homura, this is something I don't think you know, but I could be wrong. Please tell me, if I am, OK?"
You take a breath, meeting her eyes. "Madoka dreams about you at the start of each loop, before you meet," you say.
Apocalyptic visions of Walpurgisnacht, of Homura.
Homura, whose eyes go wide. "W-what?" she whispers, searching your face. "No, she- I don't want her to-"
She falls silent, squeezing her eyes shut.
[] Write-in
-[X] Break to voting if any point needs more detail, or if Homura seems troubled. Don't be pushy.
-[X] Relax. Comment:
--[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
[X] O&K.
-[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
-[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
[X] Everyone.
-[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
-[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
[X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic...
--[X] On Grief.
--[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
=====
Breaking to vote as requested.
Also, folks? I see a lot of anger and worry in the thread. Look, I love that you all care about PMAS so much, but take care of yourselves. All of you. OK? If you need time, tell me so. Take that time.
And don't forget - I'm as invested in telling this story as you guys are.
[] KEEP THE REASSURANCE TRAIN GOING OMG HOMU PLS HOW CAN WE MAKE YOU FEEL BETTER
EDIT2:
OK, so I know there's a plan.
But let's look at this anyway.
Homura just got told something she really doesn't to happen has been happening.
(We're planning to tell her more about this and I'm scared it might be too much all at once.)
(But if we don't reach some sort of conclussion before this convesation ends, Homu will probably break to smithereens ten relative minutes after she's out of our sight and hugging range.)
So Homu will necessarily need to come to accept the current state of affairs in some fashion. We can help with that.
Perhaps we should keep things slow and not throw the whole theory at Homu at once. Start with fact facts we know, that are not the product of any sort of conjecture, see how Homu reacts, help her deal with that, then go from there?
We're basically taking a blindfold off Homu's eyes, and now she must accept what we're showing her, because she can't deny it any longer.
