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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Though it is, nevertheless, an angle. That said, I might suspect the effects of isolation in the loops from other people may, potentially, manifest separately than the PTSD from the everyone-dying and constant fighting for Madoka's life sorts of things. Possibly, anyway. It really all depends on how Homura has taken both- and from there we're back to- well, the metaphor is draw blood from stone, but, back to divining the secrets of one, anyway. Huh. The secrets of a soul. Not so far off, actually.

Part of me is trying to add to the rock-puns by adding literary references, but that would be so abstruse as to be even more unhelpful than my use of the word.
 
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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 5453 longer notes in link for now.

The best session is when we make her refute her own reasons for unhappiness. It isn't going to happen by itself, but that is the way we do it. Heavy thinking and deep empathy are required, as well as super patience. My proposal so far - have our conversation in many short bites IC. I propose being in full support and treatment mode.

[X] AWARENESS - Homura is deeply emotional, and in trauma. Minimize hard logic. Emphasize relationships and feelings.
[X] AWARENESS Homura started with a Romantic / Fantasy world view when not in trauma. (e.g. "Magia" lyrics) Observe for this in her thoughts.
-[X] Allow for this when we engage her issues with our dialog.
[X] AWARENESS Look out for Polarized Thinking. Don't say no, try to make her re-state things as ratios other than 1 or zero.
[X] AWARENESS Emotions may be hard to identify or separate for her right now. Assist if it happens.
[X] AWARENESS Homura may lose track of current location, context, temporal relations if she gets worse. Be her landmark, keep her situated and grounded.
[X] Let her speak using her own native idioms. Adopt and adapt to her choices.
[X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
-[X] Use empathy. Repeat much but not every word she says. Fall in physical sync - breathing, posture, timing, etc. Sub-vocalize when she hurts herself verbally, so she knows Sabrina feels it too.
-[X] Do Not speechify yet. Listen, repeat, ask, learn.
--[X] Who told Homura that something like "not deserving" is right? Invite reply.
--[X] Sabrina knows Homura, Only four people have any idea what Homura's life is like. (Keep moving past this unless she latches on to the 'four.')
---[X] {IF QUERIED Homura, Sabrina, Oriko, Madoka}
----[X] Oriko will create dissonance, better to add Madoka after.
----[X] In fact, Oriko may have a few percent of Homura's actions viewable in precog. Only things that kill Oriko, but knowledge beyond most people.
---[X] Who makes that decision? Wait, elicit response.
-[X] Trying to open any doubt about the "I don't deserve" line
----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Tell Homura about Madoka's dreams.
----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Madoka is always with you - lead Homura into her information not being perfect. Perspective correction.
-----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Her native enchantment - first time tonight! But always there. Possibilities exist for hope Homura doesn't see right now
------[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Madoka as a partner in travel due to Homura's wish. "How does your wish work?" challenge.
------[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Not painful to Madoka. Subconscious awareness of Homura, always. These are not full narrative memories.
[X] Ask to do pain conversation first. We see her pain. Want to connect Sabrina to that first, please. It might get a little easier if she shares.
-[X] Try not to trigger her more, must understand her pain right now, before sharing answers.
-[X] We ask questions to get her feelings visible, in a less challenging way.
-[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements. If they are sentence fragments, help her to express.
--[X] Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that.
---[X] 'Verbal autocomplete', confirm or multiple choice. Don't advance without her.
--[X] Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
-[X] If her pain is not covered in the topics of the vote, break to vote.
[X] Caution her regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts. If she denies, break to vote.
[X] Promise, and give honest answers.
-[X] Have her generate context examples, "for instances."
--[X] Be careful not to lecture at this point.
--[X] Understanding is what we want to see in her.
-[X] Slowly, and add context conversation, so she doesn't use the facts to hurt herself.
--[X] Expect her to try and mis-understand in self-destructive ways. Be prepared.
-[X] Very small steps
[X] When a trouble spot is sensed, break for vote.

Trying to be correct. Here is my best offering to Homura. I worked too hard, so I must have missed the best way. You are welcome to fix! Discussion in link above. Sorry for size everyone, my intent is to simulate a skill set for Sabrina.

Homura was forced to live in a world of "pure utility" by the Incubator System. Under their rules, she could never make the third choice, because there were only two choices. Assert that she should begin living free now. Don't confuse her actions with her intent, because she wasn't free before. Her real measure is, now that she can ask the question, her choices suddenly Do Matter.
 
Hm... If we're asking for more time, we kind of need to use it. :V

Otherwise it only delays things, and that's not good.

To expand a little my thoughts from yesternight... this has to do with knowing we're not gonna solve Homura's issues in one or two or many conversations, just like we won't solve Mami's issues just like that, either.

Mami and Homura might grow, and their issues might become less intense, and they might learn to deal with them with time, but the same issues they have today might accompany them for the rest of their lives, they might be the reason of their future problems in their adult lives.

We can't 'fix' this. Even if Madoka wished everything could be fixed, this isn't a 'fixable' thing.

If I had to throw out everything else, I'd just offer Homura reassurance and support.

The Phoenixian said:
On another note... Honestly, even with Firn's note that Homura doesn't really get cooperative action, a lot of Conjured Blade's expanded path still rings out to me as worth saying. Even if it doesn't really get through to Homura, laying out how she's responsible for what's been accomplished now, in concrete detail, might be something for her to chew on and analyze.
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I could see pointing out a few things Homu has done, that matter a lot to us, personally, and then that Homura still is vital to protect Madoka day to day.

(Even if she thinks she's unworthy, there's none more qualified than her, non who would walk through hell for Madoka. And if that makes her doubt whether Madoka can be saved, that's what we're here for.)
 
Onmur said:
Hm... If we're asking for more time, we kind of need to use it. :V

Otherwise it only delays things, and that's not good.

To expand a little my thoughts from yesternight... this has to do with knowing we're not gonna solve Homura's issues in one or two or many conversations, just like we won't solve Mami's issues just like that, either.

Mami and Homura might grow, and their issues might become less intense, and they might learn to deal with them with time, but the same issues they have today might accompany them for the rest of their lives, they might be the reason of their future problems in their adult lives.

We can't 'fix' this. Even if Madoka wished everything could be fixed, this isn't a 'fixable' thing.

If I had to throw out everything else, I'd just offer Homura reassurance and support.


I could see pointing out a few things Homu has done, that matter a lot to us, personally, and then that Homura still is vital to protect Madoka day to day.

(Even if she thinks she's unworthy, there's none more qualified than her, non who would walk through hell for Madoka. And if that makes her doubt whether Madoka can be saved, that's what we're here for.)
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Coherent, if executed in character such that some of it is taken in by Homura. Please, go on to account for a delivery mechanism? Which type of arguments, and which facts are the ones to use for your plan?

Please, tear my vote down until errors are exposed?
 
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HeroCycle said:
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 5453 longer notes in link for now.

The best session is when we make her refute her own reasons for unhappiness. It isn't going to happen by itself, but that is the way we do it. Heavy thinking and deep empathy are required, as well as super patience. My proposal so far - have our conversation in many short bites IC. I propose being in full support and treatment mode.

[X] AWARENESS - Homura is deeply emotional, and in trauma. Minimize hard logic. Emphasize relationships and feelings.
[X] AWARENESS Homura started with a Romantic / Fantasy world view when not in trauma. (e.g. "Magia" lyrics) Observe for this in her thoughts.
-[X] Allow for this when we engage her issues with our dialog.
[X] AWARENESS Look out for Polarized Thinking. Don't say no, try to make her re-state things as ratios other than 1 or zero.
[X] AWARENESS Emotions may be hard to identify or separate for her right now. Assist if it happens.
[X] AWARENESS Homura may lose track of current location, context, temporal relations if she gets worse. Be her landmark, keep her situated and grounded.
[X] Let her speak using her own native idioms. Adopt and adapt to her choices.
[X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
-[X] Use empathy. Repeat much but not every word she says. Fall in physical sync - breathing, posture, timing, etc. Sub-vocalize when she hurts herself verbally, so she knows Sabrina feels it too.
-[X] Do Not speechify yet. Listen, repeat, ask, learn.
--[X] Who told Homura that something like "not deserving" is right? Invite reply.
--[X] Sabrina knows Homura, Only four people have any idea what Homura's life is like. (Keep moving past this unless she latches on to the 'four.')
---[X] {IF QUERIED Homura, Sabrina, Oriko, Madoka}
----[X] Oriko will create dissonance, better to add Madoka after.
----[X] In fact, Oriko may have a few percent of Homura's actions viewable in precog. Only things that kill Oriko, but knowledge beyond most people.
---[X] Who makes that decision? Wait, elicit response.
-[X] Trying to open any doubt about the "I don't deserve" line
----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Tell Homura about Madoka's dreams.
----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Madoka is always with you - lead Homura into her information not being perfect. Perspective correction.
-----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Her native enchantment - first time tonight! But always there. Possibilities exist for hope Homura doesn't see right now
------[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Madoka as a partner in travel due to Homura's wish. "How does your wish work?" challenge.
------[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Not painful to Madoka. Subconscious awareness of Homura, always. These are not full narrative memories.
[X] Ask to do pain conversation first. We see her pain. Want to connect Sabrina to that first, please. It might get a little easier if she shares.
-[X] Try not to trigger her more, must understand her pain right now, before sharing answers.
-[X] We ask questions to get her feelings visible, in a less challenging way.
-[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements. If they are sentence fragments, help her to express.
--[X] Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that.
---[X] 'Verbal autocomplete', confirm or multiple choice. Don't advance without her.
--[X] Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
-[X] If her pain is not covered in the topics of the vote, break to vote.
[X] Caution her regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts. If she denies, break to vote.
[X] Promise, and give honest answers.
-[X] Have her generate context examples, "for instances."
--[X] Be careful not to lecture at this point.
--[X] Understanding is what we want to see in her.
-[X] Slowly, and add context conversation, so she doesn't use the facts to hurt herself.
--[X] Expect her to try and mis-understand in self-destructive ways. Be prepared.
-[X] Very small steps
[X] When a trouble spot is sensed, break for vote.

Trying to be correct. Here is my best offering to Homura. I worked too hard, so I must have missed the best way. You are welcome to fix! Discussion in link above. Sorry for size everyone, my intent is to simulate a skill set for Sabrina.

Homura was forced to live in a world of "pure utility" by the Incubator System. Under their rules, she could never make the third choice, because there were only two choices. Assert that she should begin living free now. Don't confuse her actions with her intent, because she wasn't free before. Her real measure is, now that she can ask the question, her choices suddenly Do Matter.
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Ah- I might should not have forgotten to mention, I asked @Firnagzen for slightly more explicit word about the wordcount and contingencies issue, because of my problem with being unable to interpret unspoken guidelines, and was given permission to cite:

Firnagzen said:
Generally... keep the vote to a single thread. Don't try and hammer through a dozen contingencies, minor ones are OK, but don't try and branch the entire vote like a CYOA game in and of itself.
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mCooperative said:
Alright, cool. Just wanted to make sure. So, don't do the detailed contingencies thing, instead have notes about "break to vote if we realize this isn't the right path". Is there a soft upper word limit for a single train of thought in a vote?
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Firnagzen said:
Hm... Soft limit around five hundred words or so, I guess?
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Just for everyone's reference, but @HeroCycle your vote reminded me that I hadn't actually mentioned I'd asked. Apologies for not really replying to and engaging with your vote right now, I still can't really... I'll probably be out for the rest of this conversation's set of votes. Also I've been awake for three days and probably not a good editor at the moment.

Also, re: the somewhat older conversation about dialogue piloting (and my first question making sure my 7500 word essay was alright), in case it eventually comes back up, although I expect it's not exactly a present concern:

mCooperative said:
I haven't really been able to find a threadmark or anything where it's set out explicitly, but do you have a general policy about how long (in wordcount, I guess) on-topic post content should be allowed to get before I should put it in a spoiler tag to avoid cluttering the place? [...] Also, just to clarify the recent issue while I'm asking in general, when writing up votes, are we allowed to suggest dialogue-pilot style-votes, or are those flat-out barred?
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Firnagzen said:
Oh no, long posts are perfectly welcome!

As to your other question, I'll answer with a bit of history: long, dialogue-specified votes used to be everyvote, to the point where it was dragging on the writing. I instituted a word count limit, to cut down on that, but for something as important as the current vote - I've deliberately left the wordcount limit.
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mCooperative said:
Oh, alright then. Cool.

So, dialogue-specified isn't banned per se, but keeping it short enough to fit the wordcount generally contraindicates too much dialogue-piloting because of how giving general direction is usually much shorter? And the wordcount is generally an "in emergency, break glass for firehose" sort of thing, where we ought to stay within it in the majority of the cases, but when there's something super important, we can go beyond it, or you can specifically tell us there's not a wordcount limit, and in those cases, we should just do as we find best?
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Firnagzen said:
Pretty much so, yep. No hard rules, just a request for good faith from both sides.
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Also someone please tell me if there's an actual correct way to cite PM's you've been given permission to cite, because I have no idea what I'm doing.
 
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Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Onmur on Apr 17, 2018 at 11:03 AM, finished with 136514 posts and 14 votes.
  • [x] Main goals, in no particular order:
    -[x] Encourage Homura to believe in her own value, and in a good future.
    -[x] Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
    -[x] Explain, as best and clearly as possible, everything Homura indicates she wants or needs to know.
    -[x] Encourage Homura to say what she's feeling, and listen to what she says... and doesn't say.
    [x] Overall tone and subtext:
    -[x] Optimistic and certain this loop will succeed.
    -[x] Comforting and encouraging.
    --[x] Don't make Homura feel like our sidekick. Make her feel like she's the hero and we're her sidekick.
    -[x] Don't steamroll over Homura with speeches, let her express herself.
    [x] Reaffirm that Homura can do this and deserves a happy ending.
    -[x] She's spent more than a decade putting herself through a Sisyphean purgatory to save someone she loves. If anyone deserves a happy ending, it's her.
    -[x] Homura is our friend, the closest thing we have to family, and we care about her. We want her to be happy.
    --[x] Not just Sabrina, but everyone. Mami, Sayaka, Hitomi and most of all Madoka. Even if they don't know what she's been through, they all care about her and want her to be happy.
    ---[x] As crazy as it sounds, even Oriko is rooting for her to win, because Homura winning means that the world is saved.
    -[x] Even after Walpurgisnacht is beaten, we're never going to give up on Homura. We'll do everything we can to help her be happy.
    [x] Homura will save Madoka, and all of us will do everything we can to help her.
    -[x] Meanwhile, Sabrina is going to save everyone, and wouldn't mind having Homura's help.
    -[x] If Homura is feeling that she is not fulfilling her wish, that she is useless because she is not able to be the one protecting Madoka or other feelings of inadequacy, then remind her of how much good she's done.
    --[x] Remind her: Without her, it all would have been over in the first timeline. It's only because of her that we got this far.
    ---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
    ---[x] Holding down the fort while Sabrina rushes off to deal with out-of-town crises
    ---[x] Timestop as an epic force multiplier, or letting us get there in the nick of time.
    ---[x] Tracking down Oriko
    ---[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
    ---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
    ---[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
    ---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
    ---[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
    --[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that Sabrina is just here to help her.
    [X] Standing: Try to lead Homura with questions where possible. Continuous cleanse.
    [X] Tone: empathetic; care to not drive Homu to close herself off.
    [X] Why does she think that?
    -[X] You firmly believe she deserves to be happy. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
    --[X] Await response, then break.
    [X] Tone: Caring, empathetic, supportive.
    [X] You firmly believe she deserves to be happy. Your friends would agree, Madoka would agree.
    [x] Madoka wouldn't settle for a world where Homura didn't deserve happiness.
    [x] In fact, you're pretty sure she hasn't been settling.
    [X] Tell Homura about Madoka's dreams.
    [x] Lead Homura to your theory that Madoka's been working side-by-side with Homura the entire time. She won't stop until Homura succeeds, just like Homura won't succeed until Madoka is safe.
    [X] "Okay, let me back up. I didn't properly address your concerns before, so I'll do that first."
    [X] "Firstly, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would."
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "You know hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything. Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    [x]Really? For being as much a cause of this fledgling shadow governments accomplishments as me, for enduring the much undeserved ravages of fate, I think you deserve no less. The only reason I had the gold to fund Sayaka's tutoring, host refugees in the first place was you. The reason I can perform operations outside Mitakihara without worrying about a sudden apocalypse? You. The reason I was able to get any use out of Oriko and Kirika in the first place instead of still fighting them or being forced to kill them? You. My time is finite. I cannot be everywhere at once. You make that significantly less of a problem.
    [X] Continuous cleanse
    [X] Of course she deserves happiness. That's what we think, that's what the others would think, that's what Madoka would think.
    -[X] Await response, then break.
    [X] AWARENESS - Homura is deeply emotional, and in trauma. Minimize hard logic. Emphasize relationships and feelings.
    [X] AWARENESS Homura started with a Romantic / Fantasy world view when not in trauma. (e.g. "Magia" lyrics) Observe for this in her thoughts.
    -[X] Allow for this when we engage her issues with our dialog.
    [X] AWARENESS Look out for Polarized Thinking. Don't say no, try to make her re-state things as ratios other than 1 or zero.
    [X] AWARENESS Emotions may be hard to identify or separate for her right now. Assist if it happens.
    [X] AWARENESS Homura may lose track of current location, context, temporal relations if she gets worse. Be her landmark, keep her situated and grounded.
    [X] Let her speak using her own native idioms. Adopt and adapt to her choices.
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    -[X] Use empathy. Repeat much but not every word she says. Fall in physical sync - breathing, posture, timing, etc. Sub-vocalize when she hurts herself verbally, so she knows Sabrina feels it too.
    -[X] Do Not speechify yet. Listen, repeat, ask, learn.
    --[X] Who told Homura that something like "not deserving" is right? Invite reply.
    --[X] Sabrina knows Homura, Only four people have any idea what Homura's life is like. (Keep moving past this unless she latches on to the 'four.')
    ---[X] {IF QUERIED Homura, Sabrina, Oriko, Madoka}
    ----[X] Oriko will create dissonance, better to add Madoka after.
    ----[X] In fact, Oriko may have a few percent of Homura's actions viewable in precog. Only things that kill Oriko, but knowledge beyond most people.
    ---[X] Who makes that decision? Wait, elicit response.
    -[X] Trying to open any doubt about the "I don't deserve" line
    ----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Tell Homura about Madoka's dreams.
    ----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Madoka is always with you - lead Homura into her information not being perfect. Perspective correction.
    -----[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Her native enchantment - first time tonight! But always there. Possibilities exist for hope Homura doesn't see right now
    ------[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Madoka as a partner in travel due to Homura's wish. "How does your wish work?" challenge.
    ------[X] ONLY IF REQUIRED Not painful to Madoka. Subconscious awareness of Homura, always. These are not full narrative memories.
    [X] Ask to do pain conversation first. We see her pain. Want to connect Sabrina to that first, please. It might get a little easier if she shares.
    -[X] Try not to trigger her more, must understand her pain right now, before sharing answers.
    -[X] We ask questions to get her feelings visible, in a less challenging way.
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements. If they are sentence fragments, help her to express.
    --[X] Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that.
    ---[X] 'Verbal autocomplete', confirm or multiple choice. Don't advance without her.
    --[X] Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
    -[X] If her pain is not covered in the topics of the vote, break to vote.
    [X] Caution her regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts. If she denies, break to vote.
    [X] Promise, and give honest answers.
    -[X] Have her generate context examples, "for instances."
    --[X] Be careful not to lecture at this point.
    --[X] Understanding is what we want to see in her.
    -[X] Slowly, and add context conversation, so she doesn't use the facts to hurt herself.
    --[X] Expect her to try and mis-understand in self-destructive ways. Be prepared.
    -[X] Very small steps
    [X] When a trouble spot is sensed, break for vote.
Click to expand...
 
That's... quite a bread typos what are you doing broad spread of opinions. And ties.
 
A few more little minor adjustments. Added a reminder to not keep doing a thing if it's upsetting Homura, and borrowed a little from @Conjured Blade about how important Homura has been to us.

Wordcount doesn't work on mobile, but it's ~500 words.


[x] Main goals, in no particular order:
-[x] Encourage Homura to believe in her own value, and in a good future.
-[x] Prevent her from feeling that her wish isn't being fulfilled because she isn't the one saving Madoka.
-[x] Explain, as best and clearly as possible, everything Homura indicates she wants or needs to know.
-[x] Encourage Homura to say what she's feeling, and listen to what she says... and doesn't say.

[x] Overall tone and subtext:
-[x] Optimistic and certain this loop will succeed.
-[x] Comforting and encouraging.
--[x] Don't make Homura feel like our sidekick. Make her feel like she's the hero... like she's our hero.
-[x] Don't steamroll over Homura with speeches, let her express herself.
-[x] Don't continue to push a particular topic if it's upsetting her.

[x] Reaffirm that Homura can do this and deserves a happy ending.
-[x] She's spent more than a decade putting herself through a Sisyphean purgatory to save someone she loves. If anyone deserves a happy ending, it's her.
-[x] Homura is our friend, the closest thing we have to family, and we care about her. We want her to be happy.
--[x] Not just Sabrina, but everyone. Mami, Sayaka, Hitomi and most of all Madoka. Even if they don't know what she's been through, they all care about her and want her to be happy.
-[x] Even after Walpurgisnacht is beaten, we're never going to give up on Homura. We'll do everything we can to help her be happy.

[x] Homura will save Madoka, and all of us will do everything we can to help her.
-[x] Meanwhile, Sabrina is going to save everyone, and wouldn't mind having Homura's help.
-[x] Homura is not alone anymore. She has someone else who knows the truth and wants to help her.

-[x] If Homura is feeling that she is not fulfilling her wish, that she is useless because she is not able to be the one protecting Madoka or other feelings of inadequacy, then remind her of how much good she's done.
--[x] Without her, it all would have been over in the first timeline. It's only because of her that we got this far.
--[x] Sabrina can only do so much. It's only because of Homura that we even had a chance.
---[x] She's been the one keeping Madoka safe this whole time.
---[x] Holding down the fort while Sabrina rushes off to deal with out-of-town crises.
---[x] Timestop as an epic force multiplier, or letting us get there in the nick of time.
---[x] Tracking down Oriko.
---[x] Saving Sayaka from the witch.
---[x] Watching over Sayaka when she stormed off and ran straight into Kyouko.
---[x] Giving us the knowledge needed to make the right choices, both from metaknowledge and just her advice.
---[x] Even just giving us this safe space to talk without Kyubey listening.
---[x] The only reason any of this is possible is because of Homura's strength, because Homura fought and persevered all alone for years to carve out a chance at victory.
--[x] Make sure that Homura knows that she is incredible and the hero of this story, that she is the one who will save Madoka, and that Sabrina is just here to help her.
 
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In this round of votes, my hope would be to have a more "show your scratch paper" approach. By demonstrating the path that Sabrina could take through the conversation, we allow her to use our intent much more directly.

Making a series of data points is fine only if Homura responds exactly as we predict.

If Our prediction is not certain, how do we get Sabrina to support as we intend her too? No one is intending bad things, BTW. Some actions are more likely to succeed at that, others are not.

The object in my mind here is "teach Sabrina with your own experience." "Send her a technique and conditionals."

So, let's say Sabrina should social a doggy friend, but has no experience.

[Q] Pet Dog
-[Q] Do it nicely
-[Q] Say "good dog!"

How well does Brinapilot parse your intent? The words are straightforward, right?
...Unless Brinapilot does not have declared routines or downloaded files that allow Sabrina to understand the words as you want her to.

Are we in that situation right now?

The explicit full form of communication would be more like:

[Q] Try to Pet Dog
-[Q] Where to stand
-[Q] Posture
--[Q] How to present hand
--[Q] State the Dog is watching certain facial and social cues.
-[Q] Do not our show teeth
-[Q] Watch tail, check for wag
-[Q] Listen for growl
-[Q] Break to vote if ears suddenly go down
[Q] Pet dog

It seems that we need more of the "teaching" component to get Sabrina to deliver what we need her to do here?

Once we demonstrate a correct action, Sabrina seems to be capable of common sense in the future. We can vote for her to 'hug,' but she can do this appropriately to a large extent now without that?
 
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@Kaizuki
I'm slightly changing the wording. Tell me what you think?


[X] Main point: Keep reassuring Homura. Emotional support.

[X] Tone: Empathetic.
-[X] Be careful to not drive Homura to close herself off.

[X] Firm: Disagree. You believe Homura deserves to be happy, and to fulfill her Wish.
-[X] Why does Homura feel this way? Ask her to talk with you.
 
HeroCycle said:
[Q] Try to Pet Dog
-[X] Where to stand
-[X] Posture
--[X] How to present hand
--[X] State the Dog is watching certain facial and social cues.
-[X] Do not our show teeth
-[X] Watch tail, check for wag
-[X] Listen for growl
-[X] Break to vote if ears suddenly go down
[X] Pet dog
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You realize that by putting X's in those brackets, that's now your official vote, right? :p

HeroCycle said:
We can vote for her to 'hug,' but she can do this appropriately to a large extent now without that?
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That's pretty much why I'm not explicitly voting to hug Homura. Hugging is not always the appropriate response, and people are not always comfortable with being hugged. I'd rather vote to be supportive and comforting and let Sabrina determine if Homura is indicating that she wants to be hugged rather than try to force it.
 
"What I'm saying is that you can be happy, Homura." You sigh, and smile. "You're not alone. In more than one way. I'm here, yes, but I'm here to help. Madoka's Wish means that we can do this."

"How?" Homura whispers, her voice raw and agonized. "I don't deserv- I can't."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[X] Main point: Keep reassuring Homura. Emotional support.

[X] Tone: Empathetic.
-[X] Be careful to not drive Homura to close herself off.

[x] Firmly: She does deserve it. Nobody else could have done what she's done, to save Madoka.
-[x] Certainly not you. Without unlimited magic... You wouldn't have lasted a single loop. She's the strongest, most reliable of any of us. That's not her magic, that's her.

[x] Why does she feel she doesn't? Ask her to talk to us.
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

[X] Redshirt Army

I'm not gonna stop feeling unsure about this vote. I think this looks... good addition?
 
The Narrator said:
You realize that by putting X's in those brackets, that's now your official vote, right? :p


That's pretty much why I'm not explicitly voting to hug Homura. Hugging is not always the appropriate response, and people are not always comfortable with being hugged. I'd rather vote to be supportive and comforting and let Sabrina determine if Homura is indicating that she wants to be hugged rather than try to force it.
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Click to shrink...


You.. Are an upstanding sort of person. Thanks, buddy. I am also happy to amuse you! Fixed. Sleepy accident.

Not that that either will change the course of events in Quest, if I'm being honest. I get the feeling of "not being fully engaged in a debate" when I evaluate the responses carefully.

I appreciate that you have not chosen to ignore what I write.

@Onmur @Redshirt Army I would like to specifically invite your review? The 'fun' post prior is my comment to others ATM, so I took my turn first.
 
The Narrator said:
---[x] As crazy as it sounds, even Oriko is rooting for her to win, because Homura winning means that the world is saved.
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If nobody has actually gotten around to pointing it out in the thread proper yet- given the conversation we just got out of, bringing Oriko anywhere near a positive statement (or Homura, or in this case, both) seems like a very dangerous idea, regardless of the direction the rest of the conversation takes. While I still can't- I still cannot look at the direction of any of this conversation and have any hope left over yet to evaluate whose vote proposal is least likely to fail, most likely to succeed, or anything like that, this specific line is a point of some concern, and I believe may be so to others?

Well, maybe anyway. That's. All I really got.
 
mCooperative said:
this specific line is a point of some concern, and I believe may be so to others?
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Well, no one's commented on it thus far, but I freely admit that might be pushing the envelope. It was just something that occurred to (and amused) me: even one of Homura's greatest enemies just wants her to succeed and be fucking happy already. The only ones who don't are Kyubey and herself.

Still, I'll edit it out, because we're not really having the Oriko conversation right now, so it would probably be best not to say anything to remind her of it.
 
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