I'm not sure of our maximum acceleration
Our Grief moves at whatever arbitrary speed we will it to.

We only have a maximum acceleration/speed insofar as we want to avoid collateral damage.

"Yep," you agree. "See you!" Ending the call, you bring your attention back to the monolithic lump of Grief in front of you.

You remember. You remember how the Witch Barrier looked. You remember how it looked. You bring your will to bear on the Grief.

My will be done.

You step forward into the shimmering slit in reality, your senses singing all around you.

Endless void.

And you, the only thing within.
Hmm, from this I can't really say how long it took to make the Barrier. I'd look for the quote of when we made the second Barrier, but my internet's not working right right now.
 
Hmm, from this I can't really say how long it took to make the Barrier. I'd look for the quote of when we made the second Barrier, but my internet's not working right right now.
I've got them:
You plunk back down into your spinny chair again, letting the momentum twirl you around before you bring your focus to bear on the hovering monolith of Grief. A Barrier. You saw how a Witch Barrier works, and you... you think you ca-

Mami's voice intrudes on your thoughts. "Sabrina?"

You smile, and release your concentration. Instead, you lean back in your chair, looking up at the cloudy sky. "Hey, Mami. How are you?"

"Ah, I'm doing alright," Mami replies. "How are you, Sabrina?"

This is the first attempt, from the same post as the one you quoted, notable in that we were interrupted before we could finish.

You oblige, hugging Mami tightly. She wraps her arms around you, burying her head against the crook of your neck and holding you tightly. "Will you show me?" she asks softly.

"Of course," you answer softly. You'd half decided that you would, in any case, so the decision's easy enough to make.

Mami nods, stepping back and smiling softly at you. You return the smile, drawing the Grief before you in a dense, deep purple blob - and you focus. You remember.

You remember how it felt. And you push at the Grief, shaping it by memory. It folds in on itself, deep purple Grief twisting away into a faint glow that sings in your senses. You turn to Mami, offering a hand and a smile.

There's a bit of trepidation in the motion and a touch of worry in her posture. But she accepts your hand, and together you step into the Barrier.

It's formless void, once more. Abyssal silence yawns all around you.

You float. Mami's fingers are bonecrushingly tight around yours as you will a reality into being - your reality.
And this is the second time we successfully made a barrier. (formation of the interior deliberately not included)
 
Okay, again: this is a spar, not a war. Seriously. A lot of this planning sounds like a level of threat response for if you're assuming she's going to be actively trying to kill us.
What do you think "get our measure" means? All our previous spars have been some combination of fun and practice, so winning quickly and efficiently was bad. This isn't like that. Why should anything that leaves gems intact be off the table?
 
I've got them:


This is the first attempt, from the same post as the one you quoted, notable in that we were interrupted before we could finish.


And this is the second time we successfully made a barrier. (formation of the interior deliberately not included)
When Mami called the fitst time, I got the feeling she interrupted before we could really get into it.

From the second description, we once more get Sabrina 'remembering' how the Barrier she had analyzed looked, and pushing the grief into that shape.

Thing is, after we actually noticed 'Concentration Trance' was a thing, Firn said he hadn't portrayed it quite right, or something to that effect.

Reading the description of Sabrina making the Barriers, there's really no accounting for time passed. The paragraph detailing how Brina worked her Grief could have lasted seconds or minutes.

Maybe Mami's 'trepidation and worry' had to do with Brina becoming irresponsive while Concentrating, and not just with the fact Sabrina was making a Barrier.

Though she was worried about that.
 
What do you think "get our measure" means? All our previous spars have been some combination of fun and practice, so winning quickly and efficiently was bad. This isn't like that. Why should anything that leaves gems intact be off the table?
The thing is, when I hear "a couple gigawatts of power" I hear "Your output is now half a ton of TNT per second."

I hear, "If the building or Yuki are less capable than we assume or, heaven forfend someone comes up to see what the fuss is, we could easily kill someone by accident."

And I hear "If we're even slightly wrong or if anything magical even so much as scratches our outer coat of grief to get through it in the confusion, (say, to get at the highly witchy thing that is now rocketing across the city) we are using a continuous bomb made of light that will blind and burn everyone and everything in the vicinity."

This is not winning quickly and efficiently. This is being exactly the kind of idiot what we yelled at them for being.
 
We wanna scar the building witch?

Grief termites and grief water damage, at the same time.
Probably throw in some grief molds etc.
 
The thing is, when I hear "a couple gigawatts of power" I hear "Your output is now half a ton of TNT per second."

I hear, "If the building or Yuki are less capable than we assume or, heaven forfend someone comes up to see what the fuss is, we could easily kill someone by accident."

And I hear "If we're even slightly wrong or if anything magical even so much as scratches our outer coat of grief to get through it in the confusion, (say, to get at the highly witchy thing that is now rocketing across the city) we are using a continuous bomb made of light that will blind and burn everyone and everything in the vicinity."

This is not winning quickly and efficiently. This is being exactly the kind of idiot what we yelled at them for being.

What do you think "get our measure" means? All our previous spars have been some combination of fun and practice, so winning quickly and efficiently was bad. This isn't like that. Why should anything that leaves gems intact be off the table?

Alrighty, let's back down a little.

How about instead of agreeing to Yuki's challenge right away, we stop and seriously discuss it with her?
Something like this
[] You appreciate the... spontaneity of her offer, but unfortunately, it wouldn't work with you well enough
-[] If you are surprised and careless during a fight, you can accidentally a few city blocks. If it's her place, then you will at least choose the time.
-[] Promise not to suckerpunch her.
-[:V] Immediately break your promise.
 
Okay, again: this is a spar, not a war. Seriously. A lot of this planning sounds like a level of threat response for if you're assuming she's going to be actively trying to kill us.
She's the leader of a combat-focused group with, if this building is any indication, a rather significant grief seed excess and a lot of experience. I bet she'll have spent a huge amount of time sparring. She's probably not on Mami's or Homura's level, but I'd expect her to do a pretty good job wrecking Kyouko. She knows that we trashed several members of her group with enough to spare that we could hold the high ground about collateral damage. On top of that, she's fully witchbombed and lichbombed and has likely been developing countermeasures for gemsnatching. And she wants to take our measure. I do actually expect her to want to make this "full contact", and given that she's a high-end Shaker and we'll be fighting on prepared ground, I do expect "full contact" to turn some little bit of Fukushima into hell on Earth.
This is not winning quickly and efficiently. This is being exactly the kind of idiot what we yelled at them for being.
Find a cleaner or more efficient way to win, then. The line you people are giving me is that we lose if she gets a half-second to think. So we have to distract a multi-year veteran magical girl with nerves of steel who's prepared for us to gemsnatch her, and we have to do for up to a few seconds. Then you're all saying that she has enough magic to blow through twelve inches of solid Grief, which means her defenses will be hard enough that we can't fuck around with love taps. Given those constraints, yes, I do think that blasting across the city at mach two in the middle of a flying fusion reactor is our fastest and most efficient victory. Of course, we really only need the flying fusion reactor for the first two seconds or so; once we exit the building we can pull a Maxwell's Demon and suppress the heat, pull the shell back, and use our utility fog to flatten out the shockwaves that're blowing off our core. But those first few seconds? If she's as badass as you're saying, I'm not sure even that will work.

Anyway, doesn't hurt to check.

[] Warn Mami.

[] Quickly ask Homura for threat intel.

[] Start armoring up, just in case she means here and now.

[] You're game for a spar, but discuss intensity and RoE.
-[] Not all-out. You don't want to have to level a chunk of her Territory, even with your ability to efficiently evacuate it first. Too expensive.
-[] Not past body-kill, either. You don't think you have time to construct the apparatus for subduing a disembodied gem that's still fighting.
-[] You assume she has a healer. How much needs to be left for her to finish repairs within the time limit?
 
How about instead of agreeing to Yuki's challenge right away, we stop and seriously discuss it with her?

The whole idea that she intends to start the fight immediately is an assumption, one that I personally think is unlikely.

E: That said, yes, I very much support clarifying the RoE before proceeding.

@Vebyast

I don't think that we necessarily have the reaction times needed to withstand an all-out assault from her in the heart of her territory, and your plan (Plan MAXIMUM ESCALATION) is one of the few ways I could see us eke out a win, yes.

I also think that it's very unlikely for this spar to consist of an all out assault from her, using up all the tricks and stored energy she's put into this stronghold - if nothing else, because she doesn't seem foolish enough to reveal all her trump cards to us for a simple spar.

I also also think that if she does escalate to the point that measures like that are needed, then winning the spar is not worth the potential collateral damage measures like that could cause. We'd be better served putting our money where our mouth is and backing off, like we told the Fukushima group they should have in Sendai.
 
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We're making this more complicated than it needs to be. The default votes are all about what we don't want Sabrina to do. This seems sensible, since there's a lot of ways for Sabrina to fight and arguing about them is already getting us lost in a bunch of assumptions about where and how the fight happens.

[] Spar
- [] Agree
-- [] Rules of nature engagement
--- [] Go all out (barring gem shots)
--- [] Barring fail-deadly techniques

This good?
 
Also, I think that I'm annoyed by the proposals about her power and speed and am reacting with reducto ad absurdum. You're hypothesizing power-levels that make Yuki a target as hard as Walpy or Scion. You don't find anything silly about that?

edit: That's also nowhere near maximum escalation. The words "electroweak unification" didn't appear once.
 
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I just cannot shake off the picture of Sabrina riding atop Mecha Gurren Zilla Lagann, spouting nonsense about "rule of the strong" while some poor Meguca tries to hack the Grief Mecha to pieces with a high-frequency magical blade.
Curse you, Firn!

Cue Sayaka listening to our Villain Monologue and going all:
"I was wrong about you. I thought you were greedy for Mami-hugs... but you're batshit insane!"
 
I just cannot shake off the picture of Sabrina riding atop Mecha Gurren Zilla Lagann, spouting nonsense about "rule of the strong" while some poor Meguca tries to hack the Grief Mecha to pieces with a high-frequency magical blade.
Curse you, Firn!

Cue Sayaka listening to our Villain Monologue and going all:
"I was wrong about you. I thought you were greedy for Mami-hugs... but you're batshit insane!"

Sayaka: "Why won't you DIE?!"
Sabrina: "Grief son!"

EDIT: Now the real question is who Jetstream Sam is in this analogy...
 
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EDIT: Now the real question is who Jetstream Sam is in this analogy...

Kyouko could be Sam, because Vitriolic Opponents, one of whom is edging towards disillusionment of their life goal while the other was broken by their circumstances after trying to assume a justice warrior persona and having been punished for it, and you know, because blue and red.

Kirika prolly.

And I'd give even odds that both she and Sayaka recognize the reference and their respective role in it in play along and ham it up.

Too bad it's still 2011 and the game isn't out yet for two years. ;)
 
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I mean, if it's the building then... who the fuck knows? She's had years to pour enchantment into this, especially since it seems to be intimately related to her wish magic. Fighting an opponent like her on home ground is where the 'befriend the site from orbit' meme comes up. Her bag of tricks is probably deeper than ours, just for time spent thinking about stuff to do, even if we have more raw power in the end.

I think the most important part of this probably is getting out of the building. Grief lance through a window and then exit at max speed will probably limit the amount of hurt she can put on us. As for all of this other stuff, well, I don't think we should be throwing around Fat Men and Little Boys as the opening salvo of this 'spar'.

There's also the question of what's the point of this? Is it just to see if we're a one trick pony, is it for some casual revenge/gem measuring by another powerhouse in her territory, or is it to see if we're gonna put our money where our mouth is in regards to collateral damage? All of these change what our goals for the fight should be, or what level of power we should use/expect to be used against us. Problem is we can't ask, which is why RoE are a necessity. Until we know the boundaries, we can't come up with a plan effectively without running a serious risk of coming off too strong or too weak in comparison to what Ms. Leader even wants.
 
I mean, we could definitely mention that if the location is like this building, given her control over it, we're likely to instantly lose. I find that a frank assessment, which is part of what she's looking for.
 
[x] Let Mami know you're sparring.
[x] Ask Homura+Mami for intel/advice.

Standard prelude.

[] Hit Kyouko up for intel/advice.

Any reason why not? :p

[x] Business
-[x] Ask for details.
--[x] What's her threat model?

I think that this is the question that everyone's asking.

What do you want to bet she's got a long-standing and bitter feud with some other mercenary company?

-[x] Group-call with everyone on your team. You do mean everyone - Madoka, Hitomi, O&K, Warehouse-kun, the works.
--[x] Start now so people can think, excuse yourself when the spar requires your full attention.

This is something that needs to be discussed with everyone.

[x] Spar: Sounds good.
-[x] Lower-intensity or different location? If she wanted to go at full power right now, you'd probably have to do something unacceptably messy to avoid being instantly, you don't know, trapped in a finite demiplane and delayed long enough to count as mission-killed.

No, we don't lose instantly. We'd just have to escalate way harder and way faster than we want to. And that's assuming she's anything like as powerful as is being hypothesized; she can't touch us with anything short of a quickened Maze or Stasis cast with Celerity during the surprise round. Spears are designed to pierce armor; they may even have a conceptual emphasis on that property. Walls do not have armor-piercing. Kyouko's magic focused to the tip of a spear is more than a whole Seed's worth of juice spread over the surface of a shield. She can probably try to crush us, but I doubt that she can focus the entire energy of the building down on us, and the wall next to us does not have enough juice to collapse a sphere with four Clear Seeds of Grief behind it. Certainly not instantly, and if she can't instagib us, we instagib her.

Saying that we lose instantly is also bad because it provides less-useful information. If you get a perfect score (or a zero) on a test, you're actually missing out on information - you don't know how far past that perfect score (or zero) the true measurement is. Saying that we'd lose instantly isn't useful. it's far better to provide the detail, which is that she'd probably be able to beat us to the draw and we expect her to have sufficient hax on tap that we'd have to be extremely impolite to deal with that.

Make our threat model explicit so she knows the level of hax we operate at - I do believe that being trapped in a demiplane with no exit would delay us more than anything.

-[x] Go all out (barring gem-shots)

This will involve fighting a disembodied soul gem, but I think we can still win, and I think it's worth demonstrating some of our more significant capabilities to her. She's currently weighing whether we'd be useful enough to her that it'd be worth committing to fight Walpy in return. We are at our strongest when we're able to exploit the unlimited power output of Grief and at our weakest when we depend on the skill and speed that characterize low-power contests.

Once we gem her, her interaction with the world will be by investing territory. If we deny her territory she won't be able to do anything. And we can fly. Snatch the gem and fly it into the upper atmosphere. Done. If that fails, we still have an hour; spending twenty minutes on a Griefhax slow-time field may not be polite but it'd fit into our schedule. And we may not even need to actually make with the hax; do we have any quick (<1m) constructions that we could use to demonstrate that we can make pretty much anything and argue that we've already won?

The biggest issue would be if she intends to set a ring-out rule or specify an asymmetric tactical situation ("defend the objective" or similar). Of course, that kind of thing on ground that she's prepared is just as problematic as going full blast right here and right now. Especially if she's currently trying to demonstrate that we're not so hot, in which case she wouldn't be able to get away with such an obvious handicap. So I suspect that her solution to orbital befriending is to keep us from opening the range rather than to choose rules that massively favor her.

106 words, 112 with proposed addition.
 
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Combat is rather high risk, even as sparring. We should ask her "what conditions and precautions do you intend?" I think this request is a bit... odd? In most cases, the kind of intense pain the match could lead to is usually a disincentive component to good client relations. Therefore, we are not doing client relations now? What are her motives, other than stated? Truly, it seems like Yuki has prepared a scenario in advance of the day Sabrina might visit.

-Does this feel more like a job interview? Because diplomacy is usually not a huge rush to gulp everything in at once.

-Does this play out a little like speed dating? Or is she just trying every button in order, to get what she wants?

-Is her win also a boost to her leadership position in Fukushima? Just having a match fight to demonstrate some physical power to her crew, over the one who broke their morale?

-Does Yuki like combat and risk-taking, and has expectations of grand entertainment? Perhaps due to her 'desk job' role, she has pent-up battle lust?

-Is our spar really more a penetration test of specific parts of her fortress? Is she expecting siege? More likely that she would have brand new defense enchantments, rather than a training room?

-The undisclosed Fukushima girl does items somehow - but is she also a precog of lesser grade? Or a long range sensor? Who is the healer? Think "balanced party" and fill in the gaps?



@Firnagzen - Oh, that is so precious that someone has to say the words. This is not the inversion of little red riding hood, is it? Let's understanding that dark "lamellar armor" would strongly associate with traditional samurai heavy armor. I also still cannot rule out overlap with certain western influences. Such as a very intelligent magic-user, very attached to one home territory. Always preparing. Comfortable with statecraft, lots of experience, broad horizons. Certainly might call other folks 'supervillains' if it suited her purpose, all irony aside. Wears a green cloak and dark metal armor in combat.
While Yuki in civilian outfit does connect easily to my concept of 'Furude Rika' of "Higurashi...", after she adopts her Mahou Shoujo outfit, All Will Know DOOM?

OG Magical Girl, indeed. - @The Phoenixian , I agree.
Since we should implicitly trust that Nadia tries hard not to exaggerate, this is definitely not the oldest Magical Girl. That might mean she is just under 40 years old? Or 25? Fukushima doesn't have many witches - i.e., all the low potential girls have been used up, and they eat the new ones quickly each year. The evidence before us of vast accumulation and efficiency of magic, coupled with her liberal body language cues, speak to her age, and Fukushima being a lair of one of the Old Ones. Her personality or lack of good luck with resources perhaps meant she did a very slow build-out, and I think her mercenary enterprise is a way of slowly exploring and collecting the strongest allies. She would like to make the volcano group, or just one of them, part of her crew? But could not, and wants to shut down a pending attack by buying a scary new watchdog? Or is the other group trying to regulate her? Sabrina is the Product, not the Customer.

We can get her a weighted string anti-magic weapon. For greater justice! Cable replaces string for a combat yo-yo. Truly classic - from when I think she was still mundane.

We should think to discuss the way Yuki has dealt with her girls learning the witchbomb. Experience, listen to it.

We have an interest in radar-like detection magic, miles in range and fast-reading. Don't we? The ribbon grid is two girls, and has a long casting time. Does she have better scanning? Or is her city enchanted laboriously, surface by surface?

@Redshirt Army - Give Homura the gift that says "we care." Surveillance drone network, web video access, and hired patrol staff. Of course she would still check sometimes. But other times, she might get some more sleep, if she enjoyed a force multiplier or two.

@Vebyast - Right On! We really would talk to Mami now, and so we should. Partners. Having a spar that is not a prelude to getting imprisoned and cloned is our own choice. But we communicate. Diplomacy must wait, IMHO. Risking a serious alliance is a time for us to Mitakihara! Assemble! Of course Yuki has another card - or several - face down. And asking her to tip them right now is good, as well as telling her we will all meet. In the end, she might feel funny about the not-a-vertical power structure we have. She can find out in person, if we meet at home for the anti-magic tuning. Do we want to have everyone out for Karaoke to get the neutral meeting ground? If we choose well, cake and tea are still possible? Don't be surprised if Homura takes a pass, because she is probably doing the right thing, as our hidden ace.

We need to consider what our goal is for the spar. I'm going with "demonstrate partner quality." Thus, first move was already put out, show intelligence. Talk out of the fight first, by noticing that on her terrain, it means anyone else is just a punching bag. But don't say "unfair!" There *is* no fair in her lexicon, maybe. Then, Yuki can still offer to have us accidentally collateral stuff if she wants, or she can make a set of rules for us to consider. We need to vote again before fighting. And tapping out is always an option, if that represents our wisdom, thank you for the cooler head, Redshirt Army.

Fight strategy is just like @BlackoutSampler says, give her what she wants first - except hide our best stuff. Use the attacks she knows about, from the Sendai battle. Shut her down as fast as we can. Add in some improvs. Keep the fog in reserve. Let her interact with visible Grief, so as to not immediately reveal our range, or that within it our control is absolute. She will expect to be able to dodge it, so make sure to pin her honestly. Laser remains off-menu. Instead, pick up some pebbles, and let her awesome defenses tank kinetic rounds moving so fast they can't be dodged, and the mere act of firing them creates vast shockwaves as the projectile burns into a beam of plasma.
 
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How about we find out what kind of duel this is before we immediately jump to "nuke it from orbit: it's the only way to be sure."

Personally, I'd like to request a short update in which we get more info on the duel, so we can formulate strategies from there.

My initial vote, for a short-ish info-gathering update:

[] Mutual defense pact
-[] Agree. However, the specifics will need to be ironed out at a later time.
[] Spar
-[] Agree, but ask about rules of engagement, tone, and location. Is this a friendly spar, or will this be serious?
-[] Upon answer, break for voting.
 
[X] Spar.
-[X] Tell Mami and Homura about it.
-[X] Agree.
--[X] Clarify rules.
---[X] Warn the walls won't stay standing if she throws them at you.
--[X] Go all out barring Gem targetting, dismemberment, and collateral damage (except for anything she uses to attack).
--[X] If it turns too complicated, gemsnatch, or even forfeit.

[X] Defense pact.
-[X] You like it, but you'll have to consult with everyone first.
-[X] Clarify you won't just beat back invaders. (Hint: their involvement in Sendai.)
-[X] You're out to help all Magical Girls. You'll want explanations, from both sides, and to solve problems, not just beat them back.
--[X] On that note: Offer help in making peace with other groups.
-[X] Ask for their terms.

[X] Agree to provide Anti Magic Enchantments.
[X] Vote in abeyance where it might be relevant.
 
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