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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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The Freezer might have been there since before The Saints learned about Witching Out. Maybe Kazumi or Niko or Satomi or somebody decided they needed a sorta prison for 'evil' Magical Girls. Given that she was trained by Mami, who herself is very territorial, Kazumi might have been trying to give the team a better option other than "drive away" any Magical Girl that is causing trouble.

Heck, Niko might have had it to store spare clones for shenanigans. It would explain why the Freezer itself doesn't seem to have a place to 'store' Soul Gems other than haphazardly strewn about on the giant pentagram.

Also, fun fact, The Saint's Offical Research Uniforms are big black cloaks and Witch hats... cause they are doing SCIENCE! MAGIC!
 
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Always Happening said:
From a meta perspective, yes. There's no future past Walpurgisnacht until the final loop, and Michiru doesn't witch out in a post-Madoka world. :V
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I think that this is the case, but I'm not sure if it's ever clearly stated whether timelines keep going when Homura loops back. The fact that karma of multiple Madokas is getting linked together tends me to think that they don't. In which case, yes, anything that happens in PMKM would have to happen pre-Walpurgis Night. The universe has never gotten to reach May 1st, 2011, because Homura won't let it.
 
Always Happening said:
From a meta perspective, yes. There's no future past Walpurgisnacht until the final loop, and Michiru doesn't witch out in a post-Madoka world. :V
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On the other hand, if Kazumi Magica does end after Walpurgisnacht, it might imply there's a fair bit of extrapolation involved in Sabrina knowing about it. Which could help a bit in explaining why Sabrina's knowledge of it is so off. (Which doesn't gel as well with earlier changes like Kazumi being a student of Mami, but might apply more to changes to later weirdness.)
 
The Phoenixian said:
On the other hand, if Kazumi Magica does end after Walpurgisnacht, it might imply there's a fair bit of extrapolation involved in Sabrina knowing about it. Which could help a bit in explaining why Sabrina's knowledge of it is so off. (Which doesn't gel as well with earlier changes like Kazumi being a student of Mami, but might apply more to changes to later weirdness.)
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Usually we assume our memories being off is ... however we got our memories, it came from a world that looked like canon, but now Madokami's wish moved events around that no longer match our memories, but it at least gives as a chance to fix them. Like not letting Nagisa go Meguca, not having Michiru witch out months ago, etc.
 
Redshirt Army said:
In the interests of stimulating discussion, have a vote alternative.
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Finally, thank you. Not having a sanity check was driving me crazy.
Omniatrix said:
Most of the current votes basically stop if she continues to be uncooperative
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If she fails to cooperate on the memory device at that point in my vote, she'd be doing so after we promised to protect her against exactly the scenario she's afraid of that's driving her to keep the memory device active. At that point we've gotten something very wrong, and there's a convenient hypothesis right there to test - the "Break for vote" is so we can plan a course of action to establish whether she's been telling the truth or if she's a more canonical evil mastermind that's been playing all of us and using Yuuri as a fall guy.
Redshirt Army said:
-[x] Move discussion away from emotional overreactions to logical reasoning on an appropriate and rational punishment/response to Hijiri's actions.
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Hm. I'd definitely swap out "punishment". Also, I'm not sure that we want to have much discussion in the first place - Kazumi explicitly asked for this situation to be tabled until Yuuri's dealt with and I think that I agree with her. We could try to kick her into a rational mode of thought, but just giving her and Niko time to cool off should be just as effective. The only reason this matters in the first place is because we're trying to get Hijiri to cooperate; I'm actually entirely on board with deferring major discussion involving the Pleiades until they've had time to cool down.
Redshirt Army said:
-[x] Literary quote: "No practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based."
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I think that, without context, this quote kind of falls flat. It's a very complex message and it requires information from the end of the book. What're the chances they've read it? Published in English in 2004, no Japanese translation IRL but I could see one being made in crazy PMMM-land, authorguca might've read it if she's in the right genre but the rest of them are only 14 and I doubt spend that much time reading literature especially now that they've dropped out. That and, uh, I'm not sure I like the implications in this context - where's our equivalent of the door to open air? And would Hijiri understand it as intended?

Trying a rewrite to generalize and clarify even further:

[] Talk to Hijiri.
-[] Affirm her personhood and agency. Phrase everything in terms of choices and the meaningful consequences thereof.
-[] Explain that the Pleiades not letting her go is one such consequence.
-[] Explain that she'll have more choices coming up and she can choose to try to undo that.
-[] Promise to protect her from Niko and "Human experimentation". Justify this by expressing your desire to help everyone.
-[] Ask her to drop the memory thing and help you deal with Yuuri.
 
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Vebyast said:
Finally, thank you. Not having a sanity check was driving me crazy.
If she fails to cooperate on the memory device at that point in my vote, she'd be doing so after we promised to protect her against exactly the scenario she's afraid of that's driving her to keep the memory device active. At that point we've gotten something very wrong, and there's a convenient hypothesis right there to test - the "Break for vote" is so we can plan a course of action to establish whether she's been telling the truth or if she's a more canonical evil mastermind that's been playing all of us and using Yuuri as a fall guy.

Hm. I'd definitely swap out "punishment". Also, I'm not sure that we want to have much discussion in the first place - Kazumi explicitly asked for this situation to be tabled until Yuuri's dealt with and I think that I agree with her. We could try to kick her into a rational mode of thought, but just giving her and Niko time to cool off should be just as effective. The only reason this matters in the first place is because we're trying to get Hijiri to cooperate; I'm actually entirely on board with deferring major discussion involving the Pleiades until they've had time to cool down.
I think that, without context, this quote kind of falls flat. It's a very complex message and it requires information from the end of the book. What're the chances they've read it? Published in English in 2004, no Japanese translation IRL but I could see one being made in crazy PMMM-land, authorguca might've read it if she's in the right genre but the rest of them are only 14 and I doubt spend that much time reading literature especially now that they've dropped out. That and, uh, I'm not sure I like the implications in this context - where's our equivalent of the door to open air? And would Hijiri understand it as intended?

Trying a rewrite to generalize and clarify even further:

[] Talk to Hijiri.
-[] Affirm her personhood and agency. Phrase everything in terms of choices and the meaningful consequences thereof.
-[] Explain that the Pleiades not letting her go is one such consequence.
-[] Explain that she'll have more choices coming up and she can choose to try to undo that.
-[] Promise to protect her from Niko and "Human experimentation". Justify this by expressing your desire to help everyone.
-[] Ask her to drop the memory thing and help you deal with Yuuri.
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I'd like to move to add in:
[] Start dropping hints that Hijiri isn't alone in being wishborn.
[Or state it explicitly, whichever works.]

Because we're seeing that Hijiri very much envies Niko's connection to Kazumi, Mirai, and the other Saints. Giving her the idea that she might not be alone to hold onto seems like something that could be very helpful here, regardless of Hijiri's current intentions.
 
Vebyast said:
That and, uh, I'm not sure I like the implications in this context - where's our equivalent of the door to open air?
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You're getting two different parts of the book confused, I think.

The scene I was thinking of when I first brought up that line is when it's used near the end of the book, when the corrupt businessmen who run the Grand Trunk--and made so much noise about how they should have the "freedom" to run their business as greedily as they wished--are arrested for their crimes. They had the freedom to choose, they chose to do something illegal and harmful, and now there are consequences for that choice: criminal charges and imprisonment.

Similarly, Hijiri has free will and chose to do something unwise and harmful. Now there are consequences for that choice, but because Sabrina is who she is, they will be quite mild: she just has do something helpful to make amends and undo the harm she's done.

I don't think the line requires the context of knowing the plot of the book to make the meaning clear: she can't just walk away like nothing happened after stealing things and attacking people. It's basically just a fancier way of saying, "Freedom means you can make choices, but choices have consequences."
 
Hello everyone its been awhile since I found the time to catch up and post, anyway...

Vebyast said:
Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka and discuss showing up for her parents and for school. Fly a clone home? Commit hard to upcoming reveal of magic to parents?
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I see we are worrying about Sayaka's parents right now, but that made me think, aren't Hijiri's parents also going to notice she is missing, On that note could part of the reason Nico made the wish she did be so that her parents would not miss her.

Also why are we voting to "commit hard" to the magic reveal right now, It seems like this might be a bad time to be too forceful about something like that.

Onmur said:
Later, in Vol. 3:
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Onmur said:
We could check if there's a 'missing girls' case going on?
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Since we are thinking about bringing adults in on the existence of magic, we might want to consider trying to get the detective as a ally at some point. I'm sure she would appreciate the information we have since if IRC she knew a magical girl when she was young much like Hitomi's mom did.
 
4Dname said:
Also why are we voting to "commit hard" to the magic reveal right now, It seems like this might be a bad time to be too forceful about something like that.
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Sayaka calls home and says "I'm out early this morning, I'll explain later". Her parents will demand an explanation and we will have to give them one, meaning that that approach strongly commits us to explaining magic to them at some later date. If it was "explain magic right now" the vote would say "explain magic right now".
4Dname said:
Since we are thinking about bringing adults in on the existence of magic, we might want to consider trying to get the detective as a ally at some point. I'm sure she would appreciate the information we have since if IRC she knew a magical girl when she was young much like Hitomi's mom did.
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Agree. In fact, now that we have Hitomi's mom in on this we can start building out an entire network of relevant professionals. Therapists would be so damn useful. Having a CPS type on our payroll would almost certainly help. Get a good police officer to train Sayaka on procedure and peaceful-resolution techniques.
 
I'm not convinced lecturing Hijiri over the consequences of her actions is helpful right now. She needs to ease up and be willing to listen to us first. Otherwise she'll just stone wall us.
 
Vebyast said:
Agree. In fact, now that we have Hitomi's mom in on this we can start building out an entire network of relevant professionals. Therapists would be so damn useful. Having a CPS type on our payroll would almost certainly help. Get a good police officer to train Sayaka on procedure and peaceful-resolution techniques.
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Yeah. A Therapist, a Business Mogul, a Police Officer... A Lawyer to help write laws, a Politician to shush up any murmurs about our clandestine operations, a Soldier to teach Homura squad-level tactics, a Yakuza to silence anyone who knows too much, a Little Girl to provide the brain, a Supervillain to teach us how to run the world, a Superhero to teach us how to be awesome, a Goddess to stop girls from witching out, an Oracle to tell us the future, a Priest to keep our souls secure, a Doctor to provide healthcare, Obama to pay for the healthcare, a Martyr to die when we need him to, a King to tell us what to do, a Revolutionary to topple the king when he grows fat and lazy, a Mole to hide in our enemies ranks, an Emperor to take control of the galactic senate, a Survivor to win one million dollars, a Princess to get mind controlled, a Knight to cry at her bedside when she dies, a Hero to fight the Vertex, a Evangelion to initiate the next Impact, a Dinosaur to die to a meteor, a Creationist to deny the dinosaurs existence, an Athiest to be an annoyingly smug prick towards the creationist, a Love Potion to be number nine, a Kid next door to be Numbah Three, a Johnny to Bravo, a Rockstar to bring his hunks of burning love, a Robot to get lodged in some kids forehead, a Drill to pierce the heavens, a Brit to explain the parliamentary system of government to all the Americans, a Swede to open the borders, a North Korean to shut them down, a Wall to keep the bad Hombres out, some Bad Hombres to build the wall, a Bunny to snuggle, a Hawk to devour the bunny and traumatize Nagisa, a Witch to consume Mami, a Loli to teach us how to do calligraphy again, a Robot and her Professor to show us how fun life can be, a School to send the robot to, a Yandere and her Yukki, a Yangire and her "OYASHIROSAMA", a Tsundere to teach us magecraft, a Daft Idiot to teach us how to refer to high-born swordswomen, his fake-Imoutou, her Shadow, his Sword, a Chipper girl looking for Espers, Sliders, Aliens, and Time Travelers, her Boyfriend, Statler and Waldorf, a furry red monster with a squeaky voice, a Spongeman, a Dwarf to build us a fortress, and Mami.

Mostly Mami.
 
Muramasa said:
I'm not convinced lecturing Hijiri over the consequences of her actions is helpful right now. She needs to ease up and be willing to listen to us first. Otherwise she'll just stone wall us.
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Lecturing in general is pointless here. Stick with facilitating real communication, otherwise wpour ine would be better spent going after Airi.

[X] Muramasa
 
Hijiri won't consider it to be a lecture. The audience is a critical factor in "real communication". Recall what Hijiri wants and what her issues are; my vote is constructed purely to build up her self-confidence and dispel her sense of lost agency. Additionally, to avoid the Pleiades taking issue, I wrote it so that someone that doesn't know about Hijiri's issues would hear it as a lecture. I suppose that I've succeeded?

This is additionally exactly the wrong time to try to push harder on establishing communication between Hijiri and the Pleiades. Kazumi has already requested a recess so that everyone can cool off. Hijiri will resist being pushed in that direction if we try it ourselves. We can go for building relationships later. For now, just lay foundation.
 
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Vebyast said:
You're not Hijiri. Of course you perceive it as a lecture. You were meant to.
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Hijiri will perceive it as a lecture. She will percieve everything you say in a bad light because she trusts no one here and has little reason to. This is basically the Megane problem all over again. How do you get someone with a temperament similar to Megane, to really listen to what you have to say?

Lecture's certainly didn't work so what else can we do here?
 
Muramasa said:
Hijiri will perceive it as a lecture. She will percieve everything you say in a bad light because she trusts no one here and has little reason to. This is basically the Megane problem all over again. How do you get someone with a temperament similar to Megane, to really listen to what you have to say?

Lecture's certainly didn't work so what else can we do here?
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We get her to listen by giving her validation, treating her rights with respect, and asking for her cooperation of her own free will. The trick is to do all of that without the Pleiades deciding that we're betraying them by failing to seek the "justice" that their angry-feels are demanding. Re-contextualizing Kazumi's dictate as a meaningful, if negative, result of Hijiri's choices will give her back the control over herself that she is desperately seeking. Taking care to note the negatives alongside the positives permits us to do so without threatening the Pleiades. It is only a lecture if you do not understand what Hijiri needs as a person right now.

edit: Hijiri does not care anymore if her choices have negative results. She was so desperate for control that she ran away from home, shot Niko in the back and stole her stuff, and then shot at us again instead of hiding. That's how deeply she needs this sense of agency. So long as she does not perceive us as coercive or controlling - as taking away her agency again - she will latch on to what we're giving her like she's drowning and we just threw her a rope.
 
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This is not remotely okay. Stop now.
Muramasa said:
Hijiri will perceive it as a lecture. She will percieve everything you say in a bad light because she trusts no one here and has little reason to. This is basically the Megane problem all over again. How do you get someone with a temperament similar to Megane, to really listen to what you have to say?

Lecture's certainly didn't work so what else can we do here?
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Speak bluntly and be prepared to fail.

Edit: vote green today!

[Q] Alright Hijiri drop the memory device so we can start interacting at closer levels than "BITCH I OVER HERE"
-[Q] No seriously drop the fucking device
-[Q] I aint playin wit you stupid, drop that shit like your mixtape or I'll fuck you up
-[Q] GURL I FIXIN' GON DROP-KICK YOUR FACE SO HARD INTO THIS CONCRET YOU GON BE PICKING BEDROCK OUTTA YOUR ASSHOLE FOR THE WHOLE DECADE AFTER WE MANAGE TO UNSTICK MY BOOT FROM YOUR ASS!
-[Q] NO JOKE I ABOUT TO TOSS YOUR ASS LIKE PAYTON MANNING TOSSING CHILD SUPPORT OUTTA HIS HOUSE
-[Q] I FITTIN' TO GO SO GHETTO ON YOUR ASS RHIANNA GON GET SCURRED AND GO BACK TO CHRIS BROWN FOR PROTECTION
-[Q] STRAIGHT UP KNOCK A BITCH SO FAR INTO NEXT TUESDAY THEY WAKE UP ON WEDNESDAY
-[Q] BOUT TO GO SO HAM ON YO ASS YO FACE GON BE USED FOR HORROR MOVIES IN ISREAL
[Q] when she drops the device, give her a hug
 
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