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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I agree that we want Hijiri along for a couple of reasons - to befriend her; for on-the-ground intel; to give her a chance to redeem herself; to keep her out of trouble and harm's way without depleting resources elsewhere; and so that she sees Yuuri dealt with in a fair and as-humane-as-possible manner.
So, to build on what Kazumi just said in a constructive way, how about we start by saying we can't yet let her go, pointing out that Yuuri really doesn't have her best interests at heart, and was probably expecting her to get into a firefight with us that'd be seriously unhealthy for all involved? She's fucking crazy, none of us is really going to be safe until this is resolved.
Then, we move on to getting the Neuron Neutralizer dealt with, getting that telepathy session started, therapy, and all the rest of it.
For bonus points, we can telepathy Kazumi at the same time, saying that we want Hijiri along for intel purposes. Hijiri has reason to think we're looking out for her wellbeing; Kazumi thinks we're doing it for tactically sound purposes; meanwhile, we're that much closer to adopting another meguca. ^_^
 
Firnagzen said:
Visiting warehouse-kun.
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Is that the Cargo Ship I've heard so much about?
Wait, is Sabrina two-timing?:o
Muuuuuuuumi.....:cry:
Firnagzen said:
... more than sometimes.
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Ah, Sabrina. If only you knew.

Crazy Theory Time! "Dons his tinfoil hat".
Maybe Sabrina cannot sense what's wrong with a Grief Seed, because there is nothing wrong. Maybe the Soul is, in fact, your innermost desire manifested and given will to power. A magical girl centers this will around her Wish, and her Soul uses magic in a way, based on what Wish she had. When she despairs, the Wish is twisted around itself, power overcoming will, the Id of your Soul emerging from its Superego. In that case, the Witch Barrier would be the Witch imposing its domain on the world around it, or, as you may say, a verbal equivalent of "I don't know what I'm talking about, I just like the sound of my voice". Curious how Walpurgisnacht doesn't want ( need? ) a Barrier around itself. Something to do with the Old Bard? "The world is a stage, and we are actors", or somesuch. Bleh.
Sabrina wished to control Grief, in order to eliminate it. Dedolere supposedly controls Grief, and eliminates it.
Madoka, more often than not, wishes to help someone. Gretchen "helps" everyone, by creating Heaven, or as it may be, destroying the universe.
Homura wished to be able to protect Madoka, so that she would rely on her, instead of reverse. Homulily doesn't rely on anyone in order to mete her own punishment for her failure to protect Madoka. And that's not even starting on what Rebellion Homucifer did.
And so on.
Well, fuck. That would mean that the Witch's name is the True Name of a magical girl. Haha, well done, Raiseth, you create your own nightmare fuel. QB would be proud.
How does the Law of Cycle operate regarding Souls, anyway? Maybe we need to ask Madokami for a few pointers. *grumblemumblewhereisthatdropoutgoddesswannabewhenyouneedher*
"Tears his tinfoil hat apart. Finds more foil, makes another hat, carefully places it on his table".

Firnagzen said:
Let there be light.
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Haha, God complex much, Sabrina?

Firnagzen said:
Es werde licht.
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Ah, the long-honored tradition of speaking in Deutsch when Griefbending.

Firnagzen said:
... your fellow puella magi, yes. You're... you're still pretty sure you're not a Witch. You think.
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What is a Witch? What is a puella magi? Who am I? What am I doing here?

Actually, about being a Witch. A Witch cannot Witch out, right? So, if we are a Witch, then why don't we call ourselves Dedolare, instead of Sabrina? Why do we call ourselves Sabrina? Ah, the identity crisis, my old friend. Come, sit, have a frizzy drink.

Firnagzen said:
"So that you don't misunderstand," Kyuubey calls, remaining seated as you pull away amidst a cloud of dust raised by your wings. "I don't trick people into making contracts. You humans just fail to ask the right questions."
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This is what I'd never understand. Why do people demonize QB, anyway? He/it is incapable of malice, because it simply doesn't understand what malice is. All right, it may be lying. But I don't think it really has to. We humans do it for ourselves quite better than it would.
The way I see it, QB was tasked with a purpose: to collect energy, in a certain quota. And so it goes around it in the most direct, quick way possible. I don't think it has anything in its parameters about "long term gain" and "collateral damage", or it wouldn't contract Madoka after Homerun debacle in any way, shape or color. Madoka is an ontological threat. Her Wish can literally change the universe. Her Witch can probably destroy it. But QB doesn't care, because it can't. As it can't feel emotion. As it can't be remorseful. It says it quite often: "I don't understand". It's just a really sophisticated organic(?) computer. Maybe the whole race is like that, or the Incubator hive mind is just a proxy, that its race doesn't care to check on what it's doing, though I reaaally doubt it. So. I'll leave QB Dogma here, because the wall of Text is hidden under spoiler, and if you opened it, well, you can only blame your curiously for possible brain damage. :p( nah, I shouldn't write it in the first place, but I can't help myself. )
Dogma 1: Collect Energy. Avert Enthropy. Establish Contracts.
Dogma 2: Don't Kill Sentients. ( witching them for energy is alright-o ) Maintain the Masquerade.
Dogma 3: Answer the Questions. Speak Truth. Knowledge is Sacred. ( or so I would expect from a race of lawyers. Ugh. I would say that maybe QB-race thinks that if you can't ask the right question, then you don't deserve the right answer, but that would be optimistic of me. )
Dogma 4: Efficiency of Time, Labor and Energy. ( the reason why potential contractor quotient even exists, and why QB doesn't care if Gretchen destroys the universe, if he can collect as much energy as possible in process.)
Dogma 5: Dogma 1 is to be followed in all cases.
Goddamit, tinfoil hat, you did it again. How... when did you jump on my head?

Firnagzen said:
Maybe there's a story behind that?
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Meduka Mafia is in town. And you don't fuck with Meduka Mafia.

Firnagzen said:
You chuckle. "I think I'm going to see if they have any blueberry," you note.
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Ah, Sayaka. You will always be in our heart, even if it belongs to Mumi. And warehouse-kun, I guess.

Firnagzen said:
Maybe mom.
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I would call it a Freudian slip, but I'm not sure it's Freudian. Or a slip.

Firnagzen said:
She lets out a little whimper, throwing her arms around you.
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Mumi.:(
The fact that she tries at all, instead of staying inside her comfort zone, is a credit to her.

Finished "Our Benefactor". The Feathers thing is freaky.
It couldn't be Sabrina's "thing", right? Right?
Say, how ontological is an ontological threat? Does it reach across time and space? Parallel universes? Alternate dimensions? Maybe it's...
"Finds a tinfoil hat on his head, frowns, drops it and stomps on it".
 
Raiseth said:
This is what I'd never understand. Why do people demonize QB, anyway? He/it is incapable of malice, because it simply doesn't understand what malice is. All right, it may be lying. But I don't think it really has to. We humans do it for ourselves quite better than it would.
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This came up a couple weeks back, I think, but I consider Kyubey's "you didn't ask" excuse to be just that: an excuse. Deflecting blame back onto the victim. Because in fact, the girls did ask. In Episode 2 they asked where witches come from, and Kyubey gave a deceptive non-answer. So he does deliberately withhold information.



Vebyast said:
Making it an explicit condition will destroy the feeling that she has a choice. Doing that is no better than dictating it or taking it by force. Especially after we just got done talking up her ability to choose.
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I don't agree. It's still her choice. But we literally can't help her while she's hiding in that field: we can't get near her or check the grief levels in her gem. And people aren't going to trust her until she returns it.

If we're telling her this...
Vebyast said:
Choices have consequences, both good and bad.
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...then I don't think it's taking away her choice to explain what those consequences will be.
 
The Narrator said:
But we literally can't help her while she's hiding in that field: we can't get near her or check the grief levels in her gem.
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That's not the only way we have to help her. The issue is that we can't do much while Yuuri is running around the Pleiades are angry. The faster and better we get this over with the faster we can get to Hijiri.
The Narrator said:
...then I don't think it's taking away her choice to explain what those consequences will be.
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The problem isn't explaining the consequences. The problem is that you are creating a consequence of "Sabrina will not defend you if the Pleiades try to beat you up again". We call that kind of consequence "coercion". Or maybe "enhanced interrogation".
 
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Vebyast said:
The problem isn't explaining the consequences. The problem is that you are creating a consequence of "Sabrina will not defend you if the Pleiades try to beat you up again". We call that kind of consequence "coercion". Or maybe "enhanced interrogation".
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WTF? Nothing in there is intended to suggest that we won't prevent them from beating up on her again. Her rights as a person would be protected no matter what she chooses. We just can't help her sort this mess out until she lets go of the field. "I can't help you get a plea deal for leniency unless you cooperate" does not imply "confess or I'm going to let them beat you with a phone book."

Seriously, dude. Where are you getting this stuff? The first fucking line of my vote was to reaffirm Hijiri's rights as a person.
 
[jk] Make an angry chibi of self. Thrust it at whoever we are angry at the most. Mega mcgrumpy face. Make another and dual wield them for great justice. Make they wield a banhammer and bakasmiting fan thing to whack shittalkers.
 
I feel like we have a tendency, when confronted with these kinds of stubborn, bratty potential antagonists to focus solely on social and kind of give up when that fails (see: Sasa Yuuki). I feel like that's the wrong answer in this particular case. There's too much going on, too many dangerous powers, and too little time to allow a long series of social attempts where we perpetually teeter on the edge of using force until we find whatever particular social leverage is more unpleasant to her than actually attacking her (see: Oriko). Most of the current votes basically stop if she continues to be uncooperative, which seems silly. If she refuses to cooperate, there's no reason to break to a vote there. We clearly have the ability to take out the memory device, we can at least commit to doing so if she fails to respond to social pressure.

Also, the point made about the potential existence of the Freezer seems dangerous and very low risk to just ask about, yet it's in none of the major votes. We have the multitasking capability, there's no reason not to bring it up. So here's my suggested edit:

[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka and discuss showing up for her parents and for school. Fly a clone home? Commit hard to upcoming reveal of magic to parents?
-[x] After that: Telepathy Kazumi about the lack of meguca in the city. If necessary, bring up outside knowledge suggesting there should be more.
--[x] If she's evasive, namedrop the Freezer.
[x] Propose bringing Hijiri along. You're not done asking questions.
[x] Persuade Hijiri to connect you to Yuuri. Take the opportunity to affirm her personhood and agency.
-[x] Choices have consequences, both good and bad. Her past actions have damaged everyone's ability to trust her. She can fix that by making different choices going forward.
-[x] Reassure her by expressing your desire to help everyone, even after they make mistakes - if nothing else, people without problems don't cause problems for others.
-[x] Give her an opportunity to help you help her: Drop the memory thing and help you deal with Yuuri.
[x] Get information about Yuuri.
[x] Proceed.
-[x] If no cooperation: break the memory device
-[x] Otherwise: Ask the group to let you speak to Yuuri alone. She knows dangerous things and you don't want her having everyone's brainmail address.

199 words

(Also, sorry if this seems a little aggressive, I just finished a re-read and I kept wanting to argue with potential votes in chapters, only to realize that votes were closed years ago. Guess there's some pent up frustration.)
 
In the interests of stimulating discussion, have a vote alternative.

[x] Simultaneously: Telepathy Sayaka and discuss her morning plans. Fly a clone home? Commit to revealing magic to parents?

[x] Propose bringing Hijiri along. You're not done asking questions.
-[x] Move discussion away from emotional overreactions to logical reasoning on an appropriate and rational punishment/response to Hijiri's actions.

[x] Affirm Hiriji's personhood and agency.
-[x] Literary quote: "No practical definition of freedom would be complete without the freedom to take the consequences. Indeed, it is the freedom upon which all the others are based."
-[x] All choices have consequences. Hijiri's past actions have damaged everyone's ability to trust her. She can fix that by making different choices going forward.
-[x] Reassure her by expressing your desire to help everyone, even after they make mistakes - if nothing else, people without problems cause fewer problems for others.
-[x] Give her an opportunity to help you help her: Dropping the memory thing, and helping you deal with Yuuri.

[x] Ask for information about Yuuri. What is her power, what are her goals, what is she like as a person? ... Why trust her?
-[x] Ask for a telepathy link. Ask to speak alone due to infohazard. Regardless of result, break for voting.
 
The Narrator said:
This came up a couple weeks back, I think, but I consider Kyubey's "you didn't ask" excuse to be just that: an excuse. Deflecting blame back onto the victim. Because in fact, the girls did ask. In Episode 2 they asked where witches come from, and Kyubey gave a deceptive non-answer. So he does deliberately withhold information.
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Hey, probably. God knows I'm not trying to defend it.
I just think it's thought process was less:
"They asked me about Witches. Do I tell them? Of course not! That will make them easier to Witch out when need be! Muaahahahahahalolkek!1!"
and more:
"They asked me about Witches. Does answering them fully at this point of time increase the possible output of energy? No. It possibly decreases the said output. Can I answer truthfully without endangering the estimates of future output? Yes. Then I should do so."

Well, arguably, the second variant is even worse...
You know what, screw it. QB was just an invention. The true evil mastermind is known by many names, all of them driving terror in hearts of mortal men. But the one he loves the most is...
Urobuchi. ("a sharp accord in the background")
 
Raiseth said:
He/it is incapable of malice, because it simply doesn't understand what malice is.
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Kyuubey gives every appearance of obtaining a significant amount of satisfaction from Kyouko's death and his role in causing her death. I would say that his claims of not having emotion are just as phony as his claims of seeing no reason for lying, as that was certainly shadenfraude he was expressing.
 
Matou Sutegobana said:
Kyuubey gives every appearance of obtaining a significant amount of satisfaction from Kyouko's death and his role in causing her death. I would say that his claims of not having emotion are just as phony as his claims of seeing no reason for lying, as that was certainly shadenfraude he was expressing.
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I don't have nearly enough emotional investment to justify actions of an anime analog of an underage drug dealer( God, that came out wrong. Does anyone know how to correctly phrase "a person who sells drugs to underage clients"? That's what I was going for. Shutting up. ) , so allow me to retract my previous statement and come up with the next one:
"QB is an asshole."
 
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Could we check up on the Kure's too. Maybe ask Oriko if she recalls any visions about Yuuri or Hijiri?

And for later: Contact Bennouna about this incident? And put up a warning notice on Yuuri?
 
Faraway-R said:
That's like 65-67 of Soul Gems I see there... Can anyone confirm?
I counted the group on the left (which is either 3 or 4) as 4.
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I haven't gone over that one, but I did go over the overhead shot Onmur also posted, and it seems to match his estimation of ~90. I went with the close up shot for my analysis since I figured it to be more reliable than silhouette shots, but either way, that's a fucking lot of magical girls, and timeline flux can't simply make them not exist, even if a fair few of them never made a contract.

The disturbing thing is that the one thing we can confirm is that Michiru is definitely alive, because Mami wouldn't have been able to contact Kazumi by telepathy. If they have been putting other meguca on ice, they've been doing it with her implicit knowledge. Don't forget we aren't just here to deal with the obvious baddies, but to work on disentangling this whole mess that is Asunaro.
 
Always Happening said:
I haven't gone over that one, but I did go over the overhead shot Onmur also posted, and it seems to match his estimation of ~90. I went with the close up shot for my analysis since I figured it to be more reliable than silhouette shots, but either way, that's a fucking lot of magical girls, and timeline flux can't simply make them not exist, even if a fair few of them never made a contract.

The disturbing thing is that the one thing we can confirm is that Michiru is definitely alive, because Mami wouldn't have been able to contact Kazumi by telepathy. If they have been putting other meguca on ice, they've been doing it with her implicit knowledge. Don't forget we aren't just here to deal with the obvious baddies, but to work on disentangling this whole mess that is Asunaro.
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...Wait...
Do you mean to say this entire shindig of canon PMKM with Kazumi-Cloning had been happening in the span of time in-between our arrival and Wally's arrival?

How long did that entire mess take in PMKM again?
 
Always Happening said:
I haven't gone over that one, but I did go over the overhead shot Onmur also posted, and it seems to match his estimation of ~90. I went with the close up shot for my analysis since I figured it to be more reliable than silhouette shots, but either way, that's a fucking lot of magical girls, and timeline flux can't simply make them not exist, even if a fair few of them never made a contract.

The disturbing thing is that the one thing we can confirm is that Michiru is definitely alive, because Mami wouldn't have been able to contact Kazumi by telepathy. If they have been putting other meguca on ice, they've been doing it with her implicit knowledge. Don't forget we aren't just here to deal with the obvious baddies, but to work on disentangling this whole mess that is Asunaro.
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We could check if there's a 'missing girls' case going on?
Faraway-R said:
How long did that entire mess take in PMKM again?
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Months.

 
The implication is that the events of PMKM have been pushed far back from when they canonically occured occured. Kazumi should have long since witched out, if that timetable was still being followed.

Probably Madoka's wish at work, shuffling things around so they're fixable, like it did with Charlotte/Nagisa.
 
Faraway-R said:
...Wait...
Do you mean to say this entire shindig of canon PMKM with Kazumi-Cloning had been happening in the span of time in-between our arrival and Wally's arrival?

How long did that entire mess take in PMKM again?
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The scope of the manga, with Michiru's death and the process of prototyping Kazumi, likely took weeks to months. The events of the manga, from Kazumi#13 waking up, through the implosion of the Pleiades, to the creation of Dawn of Hyades, took around 3-4 days.

Oh yeah, that's another thing. DoH might have been created from nearly a hundred souls. And it's a cheap knockoff of Walpurgisnacht, who facetanked the probable equivalent of a point-blank Davy Crockett in the anime. Kind of a stark reminder of how dangerous both of them are.
 
We have no evidence that the Freezer already exists in this timeline. The number of magical girls present in Asunaro currently is consistent with that found in other cities of similar size like Sendai and Ishinomaki (~10). I find it hard to believe that there were 90+ girls in the city before Kazumi witched out. Either there was a constant influx of new girls--presumably contracted and directed toward Asunaro by Kyubey to replace the ones in the Freezer--or they ganked every girl in the prefecture.
 
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