[X] Cook
-[X] Maybe something Italian?
[X] Talk to Homura
-[X] COOKING!
-[X] Get Mami involved. You must hatch a plan to make Homura healthier and not noodly and stuff!
[X] Telepathy Mami
-[X] Ask how she's holding up.
[X] Movie night!
[X] Wonder out loud about the FUTURE known as Microwavable tea.
 
EDIT: Dirtnap, we are Sabrina. At the very least, we're playing her. How can we proceed if we don't if Sabrina knows something?

I'm not going to bring up any new lines of arguments from this point on to try and avert Mod Wrath. I'll just respond to lines of attack others make on me while making a short term proposal that doesn't involve philosophy of any sort.

Dear gods, Carinithium, I'm a freaking utilitarian and I can't even stand to read your posts.

linkhyrule5, you're a smart person. I refer you to the example I edited into my post directly above yours. How could Sabrina's internal thought process possibly justify her outright ignoring what she's learned in philosophy classes, assuming she has them in her head?

To use a more concrete example in case you reject that one- let's say, hypothetically speaking, that Sabrina has read and memorised the works of, to use a clear example of a utilitarian philosopher, Peter Singer. I don't know that she has, but if you have she has. This would have to affect her decisions. How can you justify Sabrina, as a character, having memorised, say, Peter Singer, and yet ignoring their teachings entirely in their thoughts?

------------------------------------------------
My personal first choice would be:

[x] Either Order in or Cook depending on what Homura and Mami prefer. It really doesn't matter. In the unlikely event of a tie, order in.
[x] Talk to Homura&Mami
[x] About Oriko&Kirika. Be tactful, and try to figure out a more long term solution.
 
Last edited:
Guys, should we try to bring up the issue of Oriko with Mami? I understand that Mami's emotional state is somewhat fragile right now, but we do kinda have to mend that bridge inside of two weeks, well, eleven days now, and right now she looks to be in a good enough mood that she might at least be amenable to talking about the Oriko issue.

As long as we're eating Italian food and watch Homura's diet. Oriko and Mami have a lot of in common. They're high-class, they like tea and there's at least one brain damaged person near them. They'll get together swimmingly.

Though in seriousness, we'll need to wade through the issue like walking through a minefield. Maybe we should probe out what she thinks of Oriko these days and work out a plan from there? She may still be miffed about Oriko burning down Sallaka's house.
 
The fact that Sabrina has been so emotional is something I claim is unrealistic. But even if we suspend disbelief, this is an unusual issue because Homura Akemi's moral right to make her own decisions is at stake. You are knowledgable enough to see how this can easily follow from a virtue ethical approach, are you not?

Sabrina is an emotional teenager in a fucking universe where being an emotional and irrational teenager literally gives you superpowers. And Homura's goddamn moral rights are not going to be undermined by her two girlfriends playing matchmaker, holy shit.

In the long run, I should note that it is the job of the GM to clarify all questions on a universe they made. Surely you must accept it is impossible for me to know if Sabrina knows virtue ethics or not unless Firnagzen tells me?

Uh, no, absolutely not. The GM's job is to provide a clear picture of the situation so that players may react to the situation in a sufficiently informed manner. This does not require answering every question we ask, or knowing absolutely everything in Sabrina's head, especially when SHE HAS AMNESIA AS A PLOT POINT.

Writers and GMs reserve the right to withhold information until dramatically appropriate even if it inconveniences us. That's...literally like an entire encyclopedia's worth of tropes, writing techniques, and such.

linkhyrule5, you're a smart person. I refer you to the example I edited into my post directly above yours. How could Sabrina's internal thought process possibly justify her outright ignoring what she's learned in philosophy classes, assuming she has them in her head?

She doesn't need to justify it. Just because I read about Deontology or Communism or whatever doesn't mean I have to follow a single thing about them. Sabrina is a human being that acts irrationally and emotionally and in response to her gut feelings, intuition, conscience, and what she thinks is a good idea at the time. She has no obligation to form a Grand Theory of Ethics and Philosophy before taking a single action.

It is, in fact, literally impossible to do so. Any ethics professor will tell you as such, and most people get through life by acting on different moral systems depending on which one is more suitable for the current dilemma. Real life human beings can be Deontologist on Principle A, Utilitarian in Situation 4, Consequentialist in Pattern Blue Alpha, and Virtue Ethicist in World-Line 999994.

To use a more concrete example in case you reject that one- let's say, hypothetically speaking, that Sabrina has read and memorised the works of, to use a clear example of a utilitarian philosopher, Peter Singer. I don't know that she has, but if you have she has. This would have to affect her decisions. How can you justify Sabrina, as a character, having memorised, say, Peter Singer, and yet ignoring their teachings entirely in their thoughts?

Because seriously why should she give a fuck about Peter Singer in priority above any other guy she's ever heard about who had an opinion on right or wrong? Peter Singer isn't ~~More Moral~~ than the average man, nor does he have a goddamn diploma saying he has more Ethics molecules in his body. He came up with ideas and wrote them down. Ethics, being entirely fucking subjective and of no worth or existence outside of an observing mind, has no right or wrong answers.

So whether Sabrina knows about specific ethical theories is completely and utterly irrelevant. She will act based on what she thinks is right or wrong regardless of what anyone else thinks, and what she deems to be such is based on forum consensus as our choices become her actions.

Therefore, if you want to convince anyone to follow a different mode of action, your goddamn logical discourses and hypotheticals are less than worthless. You need to appeal to people's Pathos as much as their Logos. No one gives a shit how logically sound your theory is, for example, if it means throwing a baby to an alligator. Even if you can logically prove it was moral to do so.

Now shut the fuck up before I call a mod.
 
She may still be miffed about Oriko burning down Sallaka's house.
There is no may about it, she is definitely still miffed about the Sayaka house incident. The problem is that we definitely need her help against whatever is coming up next, and we want Mami to at least be on cordial terms with her before then. There isn't enough time to just let her get over it naturally, so if we bring it up at all, she is going to react negatively. Given that, this is probably the best chance we have to bring Oriko up, since Mami is in a good mood and all.
 
Last edited:
My apologies for not realising you were playing Devil's Advocate earlier. If you say you're not, you're not.

The fact that Sabrina has been so emotional is something I claim is unrealistic. But even if we suspend disbelief, this is an unusual issue because Homura Akemi's moral right to make her own decisions is at stake. You are knowledgable enough to see how this can easily follow from a virtue ethical approach, are you not?

Let's say, hypothetically speaking (which I don't know, but I'm trying to create an example that is as clear as possible), that Sabrina has read a philosopher who claims that it is morally wrong to try and socially pressures somebody into anything they don't want. This is a simplified example, but IF it were so we would have to for in-character reasons say that if Sabrina has read much philosophy, she would hesitate!

I'm trying to write down a plan for this situation, but it's rather difficult since I keep getting distracted by posters.

In the long run, I should note that it is the job of the GM to clarify all questions on a universe they made. Surely you must accept it is impossible for me to know if Sabrina knows virtue ethics or not unless Firnagzen tells me?
Look man just stop NO ONE wants to have this conversation with you the simple fact is this does not have ANYTHING to do with this thread and me and the other members WILL call the mods on you the simple fact that when it comes to a quest morals DO NOT APPLY and the situations chosen and reacted based on the situation the simple fact is Sabrina knows that they have a chance to be together and trying to help it along this is no different than a high school girl setting up a date for her friend.

So I will kindly tell you to SHUT UP AND KEEP YOUR MOTHERFUCKING OPINIONS TO YOUR SELF, now have a nice day you fucking creepy ass nut.
 
Mods, apologies for derailment but the only other choice I have here is to sit back and let other people's blatantly false arguments through. This stuff ultimately comes back to a course of action for Sabrina- I am proposing calling off the matchmaker idea as morally wrong, just as earlier posters objected to my plan with Sayaka as moral wrong. I can't prove my case without arguing it. This is reinforced by the fact that IF Sabrina has read certain thinkers, it would be in-character for her.

I'm going to edit some responses into here.

--------------------------

AuraTwilight:
-Sabrina is a very unusual teenager because her intelligence level as shown in this thread has been considerably smarter than the average teenager. With this intelligent should come a reduced degree of emotional judgement.

-Given the pressure we put Homura into by trying to get her closer to Madoka without her asking, by a deontological posistion we violated her moral rights. A virtue ethicist who believes in the idea of a right to freedom should also be questioning what we did.

Homura has not asked for any of this, and I highly suspect knowing this thread we're going to be pressuring her into situations with Madoka she DOES NOT WANT, and Madoka doesn't want either.

-Sabrina has amnesia. I am asking if she KNOWS something. Either we can or we can't acess that memory at this point. If it's in her subconscious but she isn't aware of it to use it, Firnagzen could just say 'No' and leave it at that. I would have been content with that answer if either he could justify it with what he knows, or the inevitably coming plot twist about what Sabrina 'really' is justifies it.

-Reading philosophy gives people a certain grasp of logic- enough that they should at least be able to grasp what is right or wrong according to the theory they are reading. Because Sabrina's actions in practice are so close to virtue ethics, she should be sympathetic to virtue ethics.

If Sabrina believes in moral autonomy as a principle (highly likely though I suppose it isn't certain), then no amount of cognitive dissonance is going to stop her from at least realising the problem.

-I don't see why on earth it should be impossible to have a grand theory of ethics, though of course you need to learn it over time. Besides, I was proposing that what she knows ethically should INFLUENCE her actions, not necessarily dictate them. She might, say, consider the idea of moral autonomy and form a reasoned (if formed) response to it in her head.

If Sabrina were to read about the distinction between virtue ethics, deontology, and utilitarianism, the only in-character response for her would be to consider virtue ethics superior to either. If she's read a lot of philosophy, her mind should be significantly more logical.

-Your ideas of subjectivity come from somebody who claimed my earlier plan was MORALLY WRONG. How do you reconcile these statements?

The difference is that ethical theories, even when they can't answer the amoralist challenge, are far, far better reasoned than ordinary people's intuitions. Peter Singer is a very good example because although I don't agree with his reasoning, his book contains very, very clear examples that, for example, demonstrate inconsistencies about a person who believes abortion to be morally wrong.

Jun-Sa:
-Several people were roasting my earlier plan because it was allegedly morally wrong. I therefore infer that morality has a very important place in this thread.
 
Last edited:
[X] Cook
-[X] Maybe something Italian?
[X] Talk to Homura
-[X] COOKING!
-[X] Get Mami involved. You must hatch a plan to make Homura healthier and not noodly and stuff! Maybe something involving coconuts. Coconuts? Coconuts. Coconuts.
[X] Telepathy Mami
-[X] Ask how she's holding up.
[X] Movie night!
[X] Wonder out loud about the FUTURE known as Microwavable tea.
 
Last edited:
There is no may about it, she is definitely still miffed about the Sayaka house incident. The problem is that we definitely need her help against whatever is coming up next, and we Mami to at least be on cordial terms with her before then. There isn't enough time to just let her get over it naturally, so if we bring it up at all, she is going to react negatively. Given that, this is probably the best chance we have to bring Oriko up, since Mami is in a good mood right now

"It's aight Oriko was actually trying to save Sayaka's life technically, and she was freaking out for reasons similar to Soul Rocks."

Also fuck all of you for not voting up coconuts. Don't you believe in the power of love?
 
There does seem to be an immutable rule of the universe that Sayaka and Homura will never get along (barring only Sayaka Quest, but we're influencing her and got lucky with the RNG near the beginning of the quest). Some people will just never get along *shakes head at the blueberry and the pumpkin*

It may be a good sign that Mami suggested shipping HomuxMadoka and said "We aren't in a rush." This shows that she's making long term plans rather than thinking that the future is closed off to her. Though, speaking of rushes, does anyone know about Walpurgis yet? And if not, when do we think would be the best time to bring it up?

Re: Dinner. I'd like to ask what Homura's had for dinner in the past couple of nights to see that she's eating healthier and also get her involved in the cooking process - to that end, ask what she can cook and go with that - even if it's something simple like Spaghetti Bolognese or French Toast or something.

I'd also take the time to set up the new phone and put numbers into it. Mami first, then Homu, Madoka, Sayaka, Oriko, then anyone else that we're on good terms with (Of which the list basically ends at Hitomi :p). Put 'em on speed dial, make a show of assigning a ringtone to each, that sorta thing. I vote for something really inappropriate for Homu - like the most cheerful and bombastic song we can get, then put the bridal march for Sayaka.

Perhaps patrol after dinner (got to keep the streets safe, y'know) and then see if you can con Homura into a sleepover (no school tomorrow? No excuses!).

[X] Cook
-[X] Homura's turn to suggest a meal - what hasn't she had in the last two days?
[X] Talk to Homura
-[X] COOKING!
-[X] Get Mami involved. You must hatch a plan to make Homura healthier and not noodly and stuff!
[x] Add numbers to your phone and to speed-dial. Be creative about ringtones if your phone allows it.
[x] Patrol after dinner
[x] See what the girls think about a sleepover - doesn't have to be tonight, but at some point.
 


[X] Cook
-[X] Maybe something Italian?
[X] Talk to Homura
-[X] COOKING!
-[X] Get Mami involved. You must hatch a plan to make Homura healthier and not noodly and stuff! Maybe somethinginvolving coconuts. Coconuts? Coconuts. Coconuts.
[X] Telepathy Mami
-[X] Ask how she's holding up.
[X] Movie night!
[X] Wonder out loud about the FUTURE known as Microwavable tea.
 
Last edited:
I'd also take the time to set up the new phone and put numbers into it. Mami first, then Homu, Madoka, Sayaka, Oriko, then anyone else that we're on good terms with (Of which the list basically ends at Hitomi :p).

"Hey Sakura?"
"Who is this?"
"FUCK YOUUUUU" Click.
"Who was that?"
 
-[X] Maybe something Italian?
[X] Talk to Homura
-[X] COOKING!
-[X] Get Mami involved. You must hatch a plan to make Homura healthier and not noodly and stuff! Maybe something involving coconuts. Coconuts? Coconuts. Coconuts.
[X] Telepathy Mami
-[X] Ask how she's holding up.
[X] Movie night!
[X] Wonder out loud about the FUTURE known as Microwavable tea.
 
Hahahaha yes coconuts are back on top. I can rest easy now. By which I mean it is literally bed time. Coconuts.
 
I wonder if the fact that the original joke was coconut-flavored cream hidden in places and now it's just people being confused and insane about actual goddamn physical fucking coconuts makes the meme like waaaaaay funnier.

...It does. Homura wut r u even gonna do with those oh my god.
 
I'm going to do my best to ignore unfair insults on this thread.

Although in my opinion it is philosophically ludicrous for a virtue ethicist to act the way the group plans to have Sabrina act in, I will do my best to play along and imagine how to attain this goal. Since it's how my mind works, I am helpless to do so except putting myself in the shoes of the metaphorical Evil Chancellor to the metaphorical Queen Sabrina who wants results regardless of her best interests.

Reminding anyone who tries to say this is immoral that I've already been scolded for trying to bring morality into this thread.

-------------------------------

That being said, why not try and create a situation where Madoka finds out about the timelines? This will hurt Homura in the short run, but dramatically increase the chances of them getting together in the long run and is even a sound proposal in Utilitarian terms.

The first step is to spill considerable Meta knowledge to Mami. She might be doubtful, but we'll explain that we knew a lot of things from our Meta knowledge that turned out to be 100% true, confronted Homura about the timelines, and had that confirmed. Mami is quite receptive to us right now.

We can then tell Madoka about it, and get her to confront Homura. Homura is too honest to outright deny it.
 
If she knows virtue ethics, I find it very hard to postulate that she would ignore it.

1. Virtue Ethics is nowhere near as inherently anti-paternalist as you claim, see Aristotle using them to justify slavery.

2. Deontology is clearly the most superior ethical option anyway, so she could be ignoring the virtue ethics in favor of another system.

3. Due to the goal oriented nature of quests, most quest protagonists are implicitly consequentialists of some sort, since that's the moral system with the greatest affinity with goal oriented motivations.

4. Until a legit moral quandary comes up none of this is relevant, and deciding to play matchmaker or not isn't commonly considered a moral quandary worthy of bringing actual fully fledged moral systems into it.
 
[X] Cook
-[X] Maybe something Italian?
[x] Add numbers to your phone and to speed-dial. Be creative about ringtones if your phone allows it.
[X] Talk to Homura
-[X] COOKING!
-[X] Get Mami involved. You must hatch a plan to make Homura healthier and not noodly and stuff!
[X] Telepathy Mami
-[X] Ask how she's holding up.
[X] Talk to everyone:
- [x] Subtly mention Oriko's secret warehouse of stuff. Gauge their reactions.
 
Last edited:
[X] Cook
-[X] Maybe something Italian?
[X] Talk to Homura
-[X] COOKING!
-[X] Get Mami involved. You must hatch a plan to make Homura healthier and not noodly and stuff!
[X] Telepathy Mami
-[X] Ask how she's holding up.
[X] Movie night!
[X] Wonder out loud about the FUTURE known as Microwavable tea.

No coconuts?:anger::mob::mob:
 
Back
Top