If we want to do 'speriments that don't involve grief while flying around, may I suggest examining a ribbon? Even something simple like trying to push magic through one would be an interesting thing to try.

... I mean, it worked for Mami, didn't it? Midair partner science, I mean. :)
 
Reverse enchant Ribbon to make mundane Ribbon

Grief enchant Ribbon to make Grief Ribbon

Tie up Coobie in grief ribbon

Coobie is sads

Now time for tea

Flawless plan
 
[X] Make Speckled Enchantments while flying. Try and make one that'd suppress/hide the Witchy feeling of active Grief, and one that'd cleanse Soul Gems.
We shouldn't use a Speckled Enchantment for gem cleansing. No telling what nasty side effects its tendency to inject grief into everything it touches would have. Just bite the bullet and do normal enchantment. We have multiple examples of meguca with no prior enchantment experience being able to do enchantments related to their signature power very quickly and easily, and there's not reason to think that it won't be the same for us.


We can do the gem-cleanser any time.
If it's done before we get to Sendai, then we have something to offer the girls there beside Clear Seeds, which we've just seen can be somewhat contentious.


[x] Onmur
 
We shouldn't use a Speckled Enchantment for gem cleansing. No telling what nasty side effects its tendency to inject grief into everything it touches would have.
A Speckled Enchantment is mostly magic. It's more about seeing whether it's possible to make such an Spackled Enchantment... which I doubt, but if it works, I think it might mean that Mami and other meguca good with Enchantment would be able to replicate them.

We totally should get some Enchantment practice on, but I feel that's something we actually need to sit down and practice in peace, for an extended period of time, without dividing our attention whatsoever. Enchantment is difficult stuff.
 
If it's done before we get to Sendai, then we have something to offer the girls there beside Clear Seeds, which we've just seen can be somewhat contentious.
Clear Seeds are super-valuable because they can cleanse infinitely. A gem cleansing enchantment would also be able to cleanse infinitely and would be just as contentious.
 
We totally should get some Enchantment practice on, but I feel that's something we actually need to sit down and practice in peace, for an extended period of time, without dividing our attention whatsoever. Enchantment is difficult stuff.
Unless it's an enchantment related to your signature power. Sayaka managed to pull one off in about half an hour, and she'd never enchanted anything before.

Clear Seeds are super-valuable because they can cleanse infinitely. A gem cleansing enchantment would also be able to cleanse infinitely and would be just as contentious.
It wouldn't be infinite. Enchantments don't last forever. If its lifespan was measure in weeks or months instead of centuries like a Clear Seed, or if it could only cleanse a certain amount of grief like a Grief Cube, then its value would be proportionately less.

An enchantment also doesn't require a Grief Seed to make. As a mentioned a few days ago, as we become more successful at saving girls and preventing witchouts, the supply of Grief Seeds will start to dry up. We shouldn't make our support system dependent on them.
 
Enchantments don't last forever.
Can you cite that? I must have missed that. Also, if they are limited, is there anything preventing a recharge or a reverse-engineering? This entire claim sounds like a major assumption.

Also, even if it's only good for a few months, it's still a huge prize. Imagine a stockpile of thirty or fifty Grief Seeds; other groups have had problems over having ten.
An enchantment also doesn't require a Grief Seed to make. As a mentioned a few days ago, as we become more successful at saving girls and preventing witchouts, the supply of Grief Seeds will start to dry up. We shouldn't make our support system dependent on them.
Unrelated to whether we do it now or in a couple weeks. Right at this moment there are somewhere between half and one Grief Seeds per Meguca, meaning that we have hundreds of years of Clear Seeds available before supply "dries up".
 
An enchantment also doesn't require a Grief Seed to make. As a mentioned a few days ago, as we become more successful at saving girls and preventing witchouts, the supply of Grief Seeds will start to dry up. We shouldn't make our support system dependent on them.
Clear Seeds last for centuries, which gives us plenty of time to work out something else.
 
Can you cite that? I must have missed that.
Our first enchanting lesson with Mami:
"There should be," Mami says thoughtfully. "I have no idea what happens if the enchantment runs out, though."

"Does it run out when it's out of magic or something?" you ask.

"Exactly," Mami confirms. "Watch, I only put a little bit of magic into the cup." She holds the cup upright, and as she said, the enchantment fades a minute or two later.
While we can't know for sure until we've actually tried it, I have a sneaking suspicion that making or recharging a grief-cleansing enchantment probably costs enough magic to generate slightly more grief than it cleanses, making it inefficient to do without us around. That would be rather like the magical equivalent of the laws of thermodynamics.

Clear Seeds last for centuries, which gives us plenty of time to work out something else.
Unless dewitching ever becomes possible, in which case we'll want those seeds back and people will be very reluctant to part with them. Or Kyubey continues to contract new magical girls, causing the number of MGs to eventually exceed the number of Seeds in circulation.

Also, even if it's only good for a few months, it's still a huge prize. Imagine a stockpile of thirty or fifty Grief Seeds; other groups have had problems over having ten.
That's where mass production comes in. If our ersatz grief cubes become as common as dirt, then they're not worth stealing. And if it is lost or stolen, it's easily replaced. (Losing your week's pay is bad. Losing your life savings is worse.)
 
Clear Seeds last for centuries in this scenario too. None of these things are so time critical that they can't wait a month.
Torg, this forum is Sayaka-tier lawful good. if we find out how to dewitch girls, we're going to literally kill ourselves doing it all right then because people have a distorted sense of time and a crazed need to do everything we can right now.

I'm usually a paladin but in this group I'm the token evil team-mate because I don't even really see anything wrong with not researching dewitching at all and focusing on establishing a stable, centralized politisphere of nation-states and a functioning grief economy.
 
I'm usually a paladin but in this group I'm the token evil team-mate because I don't even really see anything wrong with not researching dewitching at all and focusing on establishing a stable, centralized politisphere of nation-states and a functioning grief economy.
The difference between "later" and "at all" is much more significant than the difference between "now" and "later", though. I can't actually think of a reason to not research dewitching at all except that this is a game and sometimes it's fun to play a complete monster.
 
[citation re: enchantment expiration]
To do once we hook up with Niko for Magical Civil Engineering:
-see if it's possible to convert electrical energy into magical energy
-build mana pylons that we can dump magical energy into and have them wirelessly recharge enchanted items within their effect radius

Torg, this forum is Sayaka-tier lawful good. if we find out how to dewitch girls, we're going to literally kill ourselves doing it all right then because people have a distorted sense of time and a crazed need to do everything we can right now.

I'm usually a paladin but in this group I'm the token evil team-mate because I don't even really see anything wrong with not researching dewitching at all and focusing on establishing a stable, centralized politisphere of nation-states and a functioning grief economy.
If reincarnation is acceptable over resurrection, dewitching is already solved. Magical Girl -> Witch -> Chimaera -> Magical Girl. The only catch is that the magical girl that comes out of the process isn't the same one that went in. Also, notably, as long as they remain stable, Chimaeras have grief seeds rather than soul gems, so there's no known definite limit to the magic they can expend.

Doppels would be the better outcome, and also have no definite limit on magic use, but are a lot harder to pull off in theory on account of us not being a god.

ED: Just had an interesting thought/hunch. Have we tried healing/regenerating a Clear Seed?
Nevermind that, developing an alternative theory.
 
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Wait, as in the mobage?

If it's giving actually interesting new canon I might have to try that out. Is it in Japanese? I can almost handle a Japanese game but English would be preferable.

The game isn't out yet, but there's comics. One of which explained that if a Soul Gem fills up in the game's setting, it instead manifests a Doppel, a "copy of the Magical Girl's emotions". AKA, the Witch Stands.

So now we have a term for that.
 
If reincarnation is acceptable over resurrection, dewitching is already solved. Magical Girl -> Witch -> Chimaera -> Magical Girl. The only catch is that the magical girl that comes out of the process isn't the same one that went in. Also, notably, as long as they remain stable, Chimaeras have grief seeds rather than soul gems, so there's no known definite limit to the magic they can expend.

Doppels would be the better outcome, and also have no definite limit on magic use, but are a lot harder to pull off in theory on account of us not being a god.
Tbh, Reincarnation may be more stable and result in greater overall happiness than resurrection. It still provides a motive to avoid death, whereas rezzing people would no doubt lead to adrenaline junkies doing lethal stunts because they can just be stiched back together. And the loss of mind prevents us from establishing an eternal, immortal aristocracy over the humans, which is what I'm worried about in the far-long-term.

My standing opinion on immortality is that it's great for individuals, but bad for society unless everyone can get it. If one class can be immortal while another cannot, the immortal class will inevitably take over and establish a caste system if one isn't already in place. Human nature makes it inevitable that it'll become a shitty situation for the non-immortals.
 
It still provides a motive to avoid death, whereas rezzing people would no doubt lead to adrenaline junkies doing lethal stunts because they can just be stiched back together.
How is that not an argument for resurrection?
My standing opinion on immortality is that it's great for individuals, but bad for society unless everyone can get it.
Everyone can. Kyuubey only gives magical girls soul gems because they're the only ones suitable for contributing to its quota, there's no known reason that someone else willing to front the magic cost couldn't do the same to normal people.
 
And then we become dependent on Kyuubey being willing to Megucify the whole human population. And in that not raising up some other kind of esoteric problem we can't help with. Maybe Magical Boys' soul gems fill up with Rage and they become Demons instead of witches, or something else ridiculous.

And a motive to avoid putting yourself in danger is important, even when you can't die. Ever read Sayaka Quest? Even avoiding the psyche problems that Kyouko had from watching Sayaka be repeatedly dismembered, Sayaka herself was a bit crazy and had a tendency to do seriously dangerous shit. Fortunately SV is smart enough that she didn't do anything that would have endangered others, but expecting every girl everywhere to have that kind of self-control is silly. Immortal or not, a seven-year old girl walking down the street is going to get PTSD from being bifurcated by some crazy broad on a chainsaw-skateboard or whatever it is that gets popular.

Also, overpopulation, which I'm sure everyone has already thought of.

Simply put, even making Meguca immortal doesn't change their psychology. Immortality would traumatize a lot of people, and causes a host of other problems to boot. Let's focus on de-feralizing the general populace before we plot to make the entire species a bunch of immortals.
 
So, thinking about it for a bit, we could actually try to create a chimaera today if we have an hour or two free in our schedule. It'll be a bit more difficult without Niko's matter reconstruction, but we may be able to substitute for that.

What we need:
-One (1) Witch
-One (1) human body (fresh and unoccupied)
-An incredibly deep knowledge of human physiology and anatomy (optional)
-The ability to be conceptually completely fucking broken
-One (1) stasis bottle (optional)
-A memory altering device (optional)

This is all based on educated guesses as to what chimaeras are and how they work; even if we don't get around to it in the next couple days, it's at least a hypothetical starting point since (Michiru still being alive) Niko probably hasn't even started on this line of research.

What do: First (after hatching it if necessary), we tear the Witch into bloody chunks until it dies, but hold onto those chunks with our sadkinesis so that the Grief Seed doesn't reabsorb them; if we can't keep them frozen under our conscious control without altering them, we stuff them into the stasis bottle (which should be a trifle to griefhack, since we know what it is and approximately how it works).

Since we won't have a human body handy, we'll need to make one: We could probably griefhack a machine that reconstructs matter on the molecular level, but this may or may not be permanent outside of our control radius, which could get messy; if it doesn't work, we can use it as a prototype to enchant a genuine article off of (with Mami's help, likely; she doesn't need to know what it'll be used for right now).

Next, we need to implant the human body with the witch fragments, and connect the Grief Seed to it: The Grief Seed is still the (remains of the) Magi's soul (gem), so it will act as the motive force for the body. Witches don't use magic per say: It will instinctively attempt to control/absorb its body (the fragments) with its innate grief control, and will take control of the body in so doing. In theory, it will also instinctively slave its cognitive functions to the familiar hardware of the body's physical brain in the same manner that the vast majority of magical girls do (having lost its original body on apotheosis), filtering the original personality from the Seed to the body and away from the mass of Grief, thereby allowing the witch to function as a sane and autonomous being without hatching. This is where memory auditing comes in: If the chimaera retains all of its memories, she will remember the trauma of dying and becoming a Witch: Depending on the closeness to which she identifies with the former magical girl and general mental state, this can cause a relapse; anything from going berserk/feral to hatching the Grief Seed.

In fact, our particular powers may give us an edge here: Grief is the fuel Witches use to produce phenomenal effects (in the chimaera's case, pseudomagical effects and Magi-esque transformation), but is also the physical manifestation of psychological damage; mostly or completely emptying out a Seed before connection may result in a more stable chimaera, if possibly a less combat-capable one.
 
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Erm... Okay. Dark, but plausible.

I'd move we pick up Niko before we try that though. Two heads are better than one, especially when it comes to determining if playing Frankenstein is going to go bad or not.


Again, I'd like to try to make a familiar. We could even tell Mami what we're doing - it's not a huge leap of logic that Grief Control + Witches use Grief Control + Witches have familiars = We can make familiars too. Plus we could use her backing us if the Familiar decides to try to eat people.

If so we have a source of Clear Seeds that isn't depended on the souls of small children. I can't see familiars as being any more intelligent than a dog or a cat, and it's perfectly ethical to eat animals if one is starving to death, so there wouldn't be much ethical concern over harvesting them for Clear Seed Mass Production.
 
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