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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I'm doing a bit of theorizing about soul/brain interaction here.

Witchification removes the soul's connection to the body per Sayaka's body going limp when she witches.
Rebellion portrays Homura as still being in there when she witches. Is this indicative of anything about the ability of the soul to function without the brain in the Madoka Magica setting?

If so, this is a point in favor of Grief Transhumanism/Complete Universal Ascension being viable. Thoughts?
 
Conjured Blade said:
Rebellion portrays Homura as still being in there when she witches. Is this indicative of anything about the ability of the soul to function without the brain in the Madoka Magica setting?
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Homura's Witching out in The Rebellion Story is something of a weird situation, so we really can't use that as an applicable example. She never actually turns into a Witch, but is always kept on the edge of turning into a Witch. Even when she tries to turn herself into a Witch from the inside, it never actually takes as it is reversed by the efforts of the Madoka and friends. It's kinda like she got as close to a Witch as possible without actually becoming one due to the Isolation Field not allowing her to become one.
If so, this is a point in favor of Grief Transhumanism/Complete Universal Ascension being viable. Thoughts?
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Nope nope nope nope nope. Staying faaaar away from that topic.
 
Conjured Blade said:
I'm doing a bit of theorizing about soul/brain interaction here.

Witchification removes the soul's connection to the body per Sayaka's body going limp when she witches.
Rebellion portrays Homura as still being in there when she witches. Is this indicative of anything about the ability of the soul to function without the brain in the Madoka Magica setting?

If so, this is a point in favor of Grief Transhumanism/Complete Universal Ascension being viable. Thoughts?
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I mean, sure, if you want to make everyone an eternally miserable immortal who can never escape their suffering.

Because that's what substrating your soul with grief means.
 
AuraTwilight said:
I mean, sure, if you want to make everyone an eternally miserable immortal who can never escape their suffering.

Because that's what substrating your soul with grief means.
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Yeah. There's a reason I described that route as "Turn everybody into sane witches". If witches can survive the heat death of the universe, then if you can find a way to make people into sane witches, to control grief without mental contamination, entropy stops being an issue and we all have weird Rakshasa parties and arbitrary spats till the end of time or karmic balance in the form of Solar Exalted or the Xeelee to our Photino Birds, or some idiot releasing a Grief virus or something.

If Karmic Backlash like that would happen, then the solution is to find a means of destroying the concept of karma.

Crazy theory: The strange nature of our soul is because we are the law of karma personified. We do not register on the scale because we are the scale.
 
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Conjured Blade said:
Yeah. There's a reason I described that route as "Turn everybody into sane witches". If witches can survive the heat death of the universe, then if you can find a way to make people into sane witches, to control grief without mental contamination, entropy stops being an issue and we all have weird Rakshasa parties and arbitrary spats till the end of time or karmic balance in the form of Solar Exalted or the Xeelee to our Photino Birds, or some idiot releasing a Grief virus or something.
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Except Witches aren't a good thing. Witches by their very nature are the complete corruption of a Magical Girl, who has become overwhelmed by a curse that they will spread to the world. There's no such thing as a sane Witch.
If Karmic Backlash like that would happen, then the solution is to find a means of destroying the concept of karma.
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No. That's dumb. Not even getting into how stupid trying to destroy a concept is, I'll bring to mind that even Madoka as the Law of Cycles didn't outright destroy the karmic cycle of Magical Girls. She more or less just cut off the part where Magical Girls turn into Witches and replaced it with her taking their Souls into the Law of Cycles, where they were finally separated from the karmic destiny of Magical Girls.
 
Hannz said:
I expect they're less public nowadays, but I wouldn't be surprised if some of them do secretly work for certain, private, individuals or small-time public service NGOs. Who knows, maybe there's even a MG Hitman somewhere! That'd be all kinds of neat!
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Yeah but I still want to know if there any recent effort, in case the CIA who knows about magical girls pay Sabrina a visit with their magical girls.
 
[X] The Narrator

...huh, guess the tally system doesn't update with the current post?
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 5, 2017 at 7:01 PM, finished with 114056 posts and 16 votes.
  • [X] A precognitive told me, shortly before her wish magic faded. She caused us quite a few problems at first. That's actually part of why I was asking after someone with danger sense or the like, to have someone who could serve as a check on her, if she regains her powers and decides to stop playing well with others. Plus, helping to protect my friends.
    [X] Speaking of foresight, use your metaknowledge to advise Nadia on which parts of the world are going to be having serious problems this year, and thus should be avoided. She's helping you, you should help her.
    [X] Ask if Riona Mag Aoidh is feared because she's powerful, or because she's powerful and mean. After all, there's a big difference between someone who is friendly enough until you cross them and then becomes a terror, versus someone who likes hurting people.
    [X] Continue with vote in abeyance.
    [X]Ask about Old Lady Catherine. What are her powers, when did she most likely contract, does she have any relatives or friends.
    -[X] If asked why, say that it's be good to get some information on a Puella Magi that has managed to live so long. Like you said beware, right?
    [X] After that, open the floor to questions from the others.
    [x] Smile enigmatically and say that's a long story. You'll tell her about it later.
    [x] Ask why Nadia thinks that Riona might be coming here. It seems odd that she'd risk leaving her territory undefended to chase an unconfirmed rumor of a griefbender.
    [x] When she says that Riona is feared, what exactly does she mean? Obviously Riona is dangerous, but is she evil or unstable?
    [X] Continue asking the remaining questions from the previous vote.
    [X]Ask about Old Lady Catherine. What are her powers, when did she most likely contract, does she have any relatives or friends.
    -[X] If asked why, say that it'd be good to get some information on a Puella Magi that has managed to live so long.
    [X] After that, open the floor to questions from the others.
    [x] When that's done, ask if there's anything that we can do for Nadia, beside keeping her gem clean.
    [x] Ask Nadia if she'd be interested in having a Clear Seed.
    -[x] If she asks what it will cost her, tell her that she should consider it a gift... but you would like her to consider joining the team. You could use someone with her skills and knowledge to travel around for us. You can pay her in cash or gold.
    [X] A precognitive told you, shortly before her wish magic faded. She caused you and your friends quite a few problems at first. That's actually part of why you were asking after someone with danger sense or the like, to have someone who could serve as a check on her, if she regains her powers and decides to stop playing well with others. Plus, helping to protect your friends.
    [X] Speaking of foresight, use your metaknowledge to advise Nadia on which parts of the world are going to be having serious problems this year, and thus should be avoided. She's helping you, you should help her.
    [X] Ask if Riona Mag Aoidh is feared because she's powerful, or because she's powerful and mean. After all, there's a big difference between someone who is friendly enough until you cross them and then becomes a terror, versus someone who likes hurting people.
    [X] Continue with vote in abeyance.
    [X]Ask about Old Lady Catherine. What are her powers, when did she most likely contract, does she have any relatives or friends.
    -[X] If asked why, say that it's be good to get some information on a Puella Magi that has managed to live so long. Like you said beware, right?
    [X] After that, open the floor to questions from the others.
    [X] A precognitive told me, shortly before her wish magic faded. She caused us quite a few problems at first. That's actually part of why I was asking after someone with danger sense or the like, to have someone who could serve as a check on her, if she regains her powers and decides to stop playing well with others. Plus, helping to protect my friends.
    [X] Speaking of foresight, use your metaknowledge to advise Nadia on which parts of the world are going to be having serious problems this year, and thus should be avoided. She's helping you, you should help her.
    [X] Ask if Riona Mag Aoidh is feared because she's powerful, or because she's powerful and mean. After all, there's a big difference between someone who is friendly enough until you cross them and then becomes a terror, versus someone who likes hurting people.
    [X] Continue with vote in abeyance.
    [X]Ask about Old Lady Catherine. What are her powers, when did she most likely contract, does she have any relatives or friends.
    -[X] If asked why, say that it's be good to get some information on a Puella Magi that has managed to live so long. Like you said beware, right?
    [X] After that, open the floor to questions from the others.
    [x] Offer to make her a Clear Seed. Let her know that if she ever needs backup, we can be there very quickly.
    -[X] Standing Vote: whenever you give a clear seed to someone, make sure that they know not to put it near a normal grief seed.
    -[X] Explain the breadth of your grief powers. Hopefully it will dissuade any greedy magical girls from thinking that they can screw with you.
    --[X] Mention Sabrina's unique karmic potential as an explanation for her unique abilities. Hopefully this will help reassure people who hear about Sabrina and think that her powers are unbelievable.
    -[X] Ask about the organizational structure of the larger groups. If we're going to have a lot of girls in Mitakihara, we need to know how to organize them without chaos.
    -[X] Since many girls will be unwilling to travel to Mitakihara, does Nadia have any thoughts on how we could setup a courier service for girls to send grief seeds to be cleansed/cleared and then returned?
    -[X] Explain what happened in the Sendai conflict from your perspective.
    -[X] Trade what you know about Walpurgisnacht for what she knows about Walpurgisnacht.
    [x] I bribed the White Rat. With Grief. Lots and lots of it. And I'll bribe it again to keep other pertinent questions to itself, seeing as how I don't actually have to give it Grief. *angry glares at probable places Kyuubey is*
    [X] A precognitive told me, shortly before her wish magic faded. She caused us quite a few problems at first. That's actually part of why I was asking after someone with danger sense or the like, to have someone who could serve as a check on her, if she regains her powers and decides to stop playing well with others. Plus, helping to protect my friends.
    [X] Speaking of foresight, use your metaknowledge to advise Nadia on which parts of the world are going to be having serious problems this year, and thus should be avoided. She's helping you, you should help her.
    [X] Ask if Riona Mag Aoidh is feared because she's powerful, or because she's powerful and mean. After all, there's a big difference between someone who is friendly enough until you cross them and then becomes a terror, versus someone who likes hurting people.
    [X] Continue with vote in abeyance.
    [X]Ask about Old Lady Catherine. What are her powers, when did she most likely contract, does she have any relatives or friends.
    -[X] If asked why, say that it's be good to get some information on a Puella Magi that has managed to live so long. Like you said beware, right?
    [X] After that, open the floor to questions from the others.
    [x] Ask if she knows how to get in touch with refugees who can't get here on their own
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JarringToaster said:
Except Witches aren't a good thing. Witches by their very nature are the complete corruption of a Magical Girl, who has become overwhelmed by a curse that they will spread to the world. There's no such thing as a sane Witch.

No. That's dumb. Not even getting into how stupid trying to destroy a concept is, I'll bring to mind that even Madoka as the Law of Cycles didn't outright destroy the karmic cycle of Magical Girls. She more or less just cut off the part where Magical Girls turn into Witches and replaced it with her taking their Souls into the Law of Cycles, where they were finally separated from the karmic destiny of Magical Girls.
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I'm not sure if I'm putting this point into another light here or just repeating it but here goes.

If Sabrina can make a grief puppet and operate it independently of her body(We've already made a chibi), can make grief transmit senses by adding eyes and noses and nerves to it, then if the soul gem can survive heat death of the universe conditions and the process isn't madness inducing, she can survive past the end of the universe as an immortal demigod. Find a way to make the contract system give everybody who contracted and everybody who contracts in the future Sabrina's powers, and everybody who contracts can survive past the end of the universe on sheer force of will as immortal demigods. That is what I mean by making everybody into a sane witch.

We would still want to research dewitching on general principle. If Kyubey has a stash of Grief Seeds, it would be terrible of us to not give them a chance at the weird Rakshasa style parties.

People would self cleanse, regenerating their bodies and venting excess into the atmosphere to build structures, void islands, etc. Sometimes they might go insane from their gem going black. If they can be subdued and dewitched, the issue can be fixed without killing anybody.


I'll refine my earlier statement though. If there is a universal rule that hope and despair must balance out to zero that would lead to Solar Exalted or something, then destroying it should be pondered. Give the universe the chance of complete utopia or utter damnation.
 
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...Or we could have more slumber parties with Madoka and build a nation of Magical Girls and just generally improve quality of life.

Seems much, much easier than trying to eradicate a concept from the universe.
 
Karnewarrior said:
...Or we could have more slumber parties with Madoka and build a nation of Magical Girls and just generally improve quality of life.

Seems much, much easier than trying to eradicate a concept from the universe.
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The point is to make the incubator shrug and go along with the plan so we don't have to look over our shoulder the whole time. If incubators are Kardashev Type 4, then permanently neutralizing them as a threat probably requires a way of becoming God.

Bronze: A Magical Girl Nation dependent on us, that will eventually wither and die if we do or the Incubators decide to interfere more directly. Harassing us with Truant officers, Japanese immigration authorities on the low end, getting our prospective Shadow Government brought up on RICO/Gang/Organized Crime charges at the mid tier, with high end stuff being breaking out higher end predictive software to play us like Peter Watts's vampires play anyone and everyone, or the old Kyubey death lasers/warform meme, something like that.
Silver: Creation of incubator-resistant or incubator-proof cleansing infrastructure theoretically capable of functioning in our absence indefinitely.
Gold: Devising a system superior to the status quo in terms of energy yields vs suffering, or one that sidesteps entropy completely.

Methods of incubatorproofing I can think of:
A. Searing changes to the system into the fabric of reality.
B. Making changes so durable/immutable that for the Incubators to remove them would put Earth in the red quotawise or significantly hasten entropy
C. Making sure your changes lead to equivalent or superior yields to the status quo and are mutually exclusive with it.
D. Incubator Genocide.

If we are going to get conventional infrastructure, we are touchable through the conventional legal system and therefore incubatorproofing is prudent.
 
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TheEyes said:
...huh, guess the tally system doesn't update with the current post?
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If memory serves, any post with a tally in it doesn't count for voting.

Conjured Blade said:
Find a way to make the contract system give everybody who contracted and everybody who contracts in the future Sabrina's powers, and everybody who contracts can survive past the end of the universe on sheer force of will as immortal demigods.
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Except there's no reason to do something that drastic. There are lots of magical girls who can create matter and/or energy out of nothing, including us. That means that we can produce usable energy ad infinitum to supply whatever civilization we have left; heat-death is a non-concern for us.
 
The Narrator said:
If memory serves, any post with a tally in it doesn't count for voting.


Except there's no reason to do something that drastic. There are lots of magical girls who can create matter and/or energy out of nothing, including us. That means that we can produce usable energy ad infinitum to supply whatever civilization we have left; heat-death is a non-concern for us.
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And presumably, any girls capable of creating permanent matter ex nihilo would be dependent on us, or whatever infrastructure we can create in our absence. Not sure what your basis is for the ex nihilo energy(Edit: Oh. Matter creator-chan just needs to partner with antimatter creator-chan). Also risks formation of a caste system where contractors are the only ones that matter. Resentment. Halkeginia Noble Syndrome. All those cliches.

How many magical girls working and how much time would they need to work to sustain life in post heat-death conditions?

Edit: You might be able to do with just 2-3 on a generation ship assuming they don't age or tire of the work. Matter creator and Antimatter creator, along with a griefbender or cleansing grid.
 
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Please note that my vote isn't a "don't talk to Nadia about working with us" vote, it's "handle that after we finish our Q&A" vote.
 
Conjured Blade said:
Not sure what your basis is for the ex nihilo energy.
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Because we've done it ourselves. We can make our grief radiate light.

Any resentment from needing us for cleansing or needing magical girls for a power source would be far less than the resentment they would feel about being turned into witches.


Script Mak3r said:
When do we start? :V
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As soon as we figure out where the bastards live. :cool:


Godwinson said:
Please note that my vote isn't a "don't talk to Nadia about working with us" vote, it's "handle that after we finish our Q&A" vote.
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It's the part where you want to blab the whole story about Oriko to her before we do either of those things that I have a problem with.
 
The Narrator said:
Because we've done it ourselves. We can make our grief radiate light.

Any resentment from needing us for cleansing or needing magical girls for a power source would be far less than the resentment they would feel about being turned into witches.
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I'm not talking about that resentment. I'm talking about the resentment from normals. I'm saying that on a Generation Ship sustained by Sabrina, Antimatter-Chan, and Matter-Chan, they can demand anything they please of the rest of the population. One of them might get bored and in a fit of pique refuse to do their job. Democratizing Sabrina's power and making everyone self sufficient(The only reason Kyubey offers to young girls is their yields vs the rest of the population, he can theoretically contract anyone), prevents this from happening. Even worse if it's just Sabrina sustaining the ship.

Edit: Gah. Realized you may have been talking about resentment from normals. We're still giving everyone post-scarcity on a silver platter. Genuine equality. No more need to worry about food. Or water. Or Sleep. Or Gender. Or Race. Or Bills. Or Money. The ability to go to space on a whim.

How much of the population do you think would take that world if they didn't have to die for it?
 
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[Q] Blab the whole story about Oriko to Nadia.
-[Q] Somehow include Table-chan's Death & Rebirth in your re-telling.
--[Q] Warehouse-kun can make a cameo in it, too.
 
Keep in mind that we didn't trust Sayaka with knowledge of Oriko's existence until yesterday. Then we promptly blab the whole thing to someone we met five minutes ago... right in front of Sayaka?

Not only is this an issue of operational security, it's also a social faux pas. Sayaka's going to think that we trust a total stranger more than we trust her.

Conjured Blade said:
Realized you may have been talking about resentment from normals.
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I wasn't sure which one you meant, but I meant both.
 
[X] Godwinson

No real comments here. Seems a fairly straightforward explanation, no need for paranoia.
 
[X] Godwinson

Looks good to me. Keep calm and 'Brinawagon on.
 
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