[x] Politely request her to put it all out and tell you everything, no hiding, no single-line answers. If she tries to circumvent the question or leaves out details in any way, gently call her out on it, and swerve back to the topic. "It's necessary" is not an answer.
If we're going this route, we may need to volunteer some measure of whatever endgame we have, if it exists. People feel more obligated to reply to unsolicited gifts.We already have a privacy construct active.

Something like
*If more magical Girls enter Mitakihara seeking cleansing, you may have to choose and don't like that. Organization and research are the only ways around this problem.
*Without good people, without building infrastructure to handle this, Mitakihara will devolve into a house of courtly intrigue, with you, like it or not, as the monarch.
*Offer grief polygraph interrogation as a means of convincing Homura to vote aye on lifting the house arrest.
*How many more people could we save/Join me and together we could rule the galaxy speech.
 
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[x] DrZiztah

We need to be attacking her precognition, otherwise everything we do, including love and support, will bounce off it. We need to not be making megavotes or literal votes, otherwise we'll write ourselves into a corner or lose control of the situation. This isn't the time for long arguments to reason, or for heartfelt appeals to emotion. Keep it short, start picking apart her beliefs.

Attacking her precognition achieves nothing. Even if we prove she doesn't have to die, she won't care, because she wants to. The vote does nothing to dissuade Oriko from wanting to die and will thus achieve nothing.

[] But why does it have to be Oriko?

As said, this is a queston so ambiguous, I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean. If it means, "Why do you have to die?", she can just respond, "Because I want to." it doesn't change her mind at all.

[] Your powers showed you what you wanted. A way to die meaningfully. But that's not what you wished for.

This doesn't help by itself. She can just say, "So what? If it's doing what I want, that's better. The fact that it's showing me a way to die meaningfully is a good thing, so there's no problem."

These don't sway Oriko from her goals at all.


What I mean by "first person form" is that it's phrased like something we would say, rather than an objective that we would talk about. The big giveaway is how "you" is referring to Oriko rather than Sabrina; changing that is necessary but not sufficient.

As for why it's weak:

The first statement is so ambiguous as to be meaningless. Why does what have to be? Why does she have to have the right to die? Why does she need to die to save the world? Why did she choose this route to killing herself? It could mean any of a dozen things, and I'm not sure knowing the answers to any of them are going to help the situation. And the second statement is practically the weakest way we could have presented the precog spiral theory. Oriko's response to "But that's not what you wished for," is going to be the utterly predictable (because she's practically said it several times now): "But it's what I want."

That's what this vote is leading Oriko towards: an reaffirmation that she wants to die, because she is convinced that it's going to make the world a better place. She just told us this; we don't need her to say it again. What we need is to get Oriko to admit that she is not even looking for the futures in which she survives, because with her current depression and suicidal ideation she is caught thinking that those futures are inherently less valuable because they have her in them, and this vote does nothing to even steer in that direction.

This.
 
Attacking her precognition achieves nothing. Even if we prove she doesn't have to die, she won't care, because she wants to. The vote does nothing to dissuade Oriko from wanting to die and will thus achieve nothing.

[] But why does it have to be Oriko?

As said, this is a queston so ambiguous, I'm not even sure what it's supposed to mean. If it means, "Why do you have to die?", she can just respond, "Because I want to." it doesn't change her mind at all.

[] Your powers showed you what you wanted. A way to die meaningfully. But that's not what you wished for.

This doesn't help by itself. She can just say, "So what? If it's doing what I want, that's better. The fact that it's showing me a way to die meaningfully is a good thing, so there's no problem."

These don't sway Oriko from her goals at all.




This.

The way I see it, Oriko wished for a reason to live. But the magic she got was contaminated by her critical lack of real hope, and instead showed her reasons to die.

I don't think Oriko wanted to die in the moment that she made her wish. She wanted to live, but she wanted a happy and/or fulfilling life.

Naturally, now that she is convinced she cannot have those things, she wants to die.

The problem originates at both ends of the spectrum.
 
The way I see it, Oriko wished for a reason to live. But the magic she got was contaminated by her critical lack of real hope, and instead showed her reasons to die.

I don't think Oriko wanted to die in the moment that she made her wish. She wanted to live, but she wanted a happy and/or fulfilling life.

Naturally, now that she is convinced she cannot have those things, she wants to die.

The problem originates at both ends of the spectrum.
I don't actually believe that. What Oriko wants, what she's always wanted, is for her life to not have been a waste. For her to have positively contributed. She was already suicidal when she made her wish and would have probably committed suicide if she had never contracted. The idea of having a happy life is more than she dares to hope for. To her, it's utterly pointless as a goal, because she can't visualise it as a possibility. Oriko didn't see the wish as an opportunity to have a happy life, or to have a life at all, she saw it as an opportunity to prevent her life from having had a net negative effect on the world.

EDIT: Besides, that doesn't change the problems with the first question and leaves the second still pretty problematic.
 
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The way I see it, Oriko wished for a reason to live. But the magic she got was contaminated by her critical lack of real hope, and instead showed her reasons to die.

I don't think Oriko wanted to die in the moment that she made her wish. She wanted to live, but she wanted a happy and/or fulfilling life.

Naturally, now that she is convinced she cannot have those things, she wants to die.

The problem originates at both ends of the spectrum.
Either way, the current bandwagon vote not only fails to get more information from Oriko, but it'll only serve to harden her resolve to die.
 
The idea of having a happy life is more than she dares to hope for. To her, it's utterly pointless as a goal, because she can't visualize it as a possibility. Oriko didn't see the wish as an opportunity to have a happy life, or to have a life at all, she saw it as an opportunity to prevent her life from having had a net negative effect on the world.

Obviously, circumstances vary, but I can say this this was pretty much exactly my mindset at around the time I attempted suicide.
 
Obviously, circumstances vary, but I can say this this was pretty much exactly my mindset at around the time I attempted suicide.
And I can identify as well, because it is also a mindset I've experienced. And yes, I've previously believed it was my duty to die because I was an inherent flaw in the world.

EDIT:But seriously, listen to TheEyes. They're right about this.
 
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And if Sereg's theory is right, we need to decide on some, and convince Oriko of them, if we want her to hold off on committing suicide. Or even get her to open up a bit.
That's going to be harder than convincing Oriko. We're pretty adamantly opposed on our goals. We don't need Oriko to agree with our goals. We just need to convince her that she has better goals than dying. Which Dr.Ziztah's vote unfortunately does not do.

EDIT: I mean, on Discord, it's classified as an unresolvable argument only to be discussed in the arena.
 
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Idle comment: Aren't we in a good position to help Homu through her issues, since she has gone as far as admitting to trust us?
 
That's going to be harder than convincing Oriko. We're pretty adamantly opposed on our goals. We don't need Oriko to agree with our goals. We just need to convince her that she has better goals than dying. Which Dr.Ziztah's vote unfortunately does not do.

EDIT: I mean, on Discord, it's classified as an unresolvable argument only to be discussed in the arena.

That's just it though. What goals can she achieve in this house arrest scenario? How many do you think add value and meaning to her life? If we have to we can offer to help her walk away if the interrogation scheme works. Whenever Sabrina realizes what's necessary to prevent Mitakihara from turning into a monarch's court if word spreads of her existence, convincing Oriko to work with us, that's something she can find meaning in. We've already tried the Kirika angle. She's too fixated with the grandoise so we need grandoise. Dealing with Walpurgisnacht, preemptively or otherwise with our New Order, should help get Homura to bend the knee in conjunction with the grief lie detector. The New Order would spare Madoka the need to contract from magical girl infighting after all.

Whatever ratio of research and statebuilding we pursue is something that can be kept completely off the table. We don't have to worry about that right now. All we have to worry about, is that somebody may try to attack us by making us choose, by overloading us to the point we have to choose between an indeterminate legacy and leaving people to die, and we do not like that possibility.
 
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Alright, here's the thing: We're showing sympathy, but we're still trying to make her fit our worldview. Here's Oriko's World, as I perceive it:

  • She is the Protagonist. She is not a side character: She views everything as her responsiblity to fix. Kirika is her deuteragonist and love interest. Everyone else is either a bystander, supporting character, or antagonist.
  • Her life was meaningless, and she desperately needs to change that. To make a major difference and avert the End. She will not change this.
    • It doesn't matter if we think she's being stupid, or edgy, or whatever makes any given player disapprove of her stance. We have to work with this, because we can only break it by breaking the Oriko.
    • (This is just a suspicion.) We almost did. We took away her agency, imprisoned her, and gave her a happy daily life...and she almost gave up on her Wish because of it. She cannot abandon her pursuit of a meaningful life, no matter how happy she might be living a normal one. That would be literally fatal.
  • She can see almost all of the possible outcomes, and the unknown Sabrina represents is VERY risky to gamble on.
  • She loves Kirika, but the world is more important. If the world ends, they both die regardless...if their deaths can save almost everyone else, then it's absolutely worth it.
There's one thing she likely isn't fully aware of, too: The trauma from her father's fall from grace has left her with a suicidal impulse that is contradictory to her conscious beliefs.

We have to work with her beliefs. We cannot change her core convictions...but we can shift the secondary ones. We need to appeal to her existing values (the greater good and her responsibility for the world), in order to convince her of several things:
  • Sabrina is more than a side character or antagonist. She's a major party member and/or rival character. She can be an ally rather than a game piece, minion, or adversary.
  • Seemingly impossible futures are worth fighting for, and she can make them happen. We can help.
  • She can do a lot more good alive than dead, and dying prematurely is a betrayal of her own ideals.
Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precogonition
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
 
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That's just it though. What goals can she achieve in this house arrest scenario? How many do you think add value and meaning to her life? If we have to we can offer to help her walk away if the interrogation scheme works. Whenever Sabrina realizes what's necessary to prevent Mitakihara from turning into a monarch's court if word spreads of her existence, convincing Oriko to work with us, that's something she can find meaning in. We've already tried the Kirika angle. She's too fixated with the grandoise so we need grandoise. Dealing with Walpurgisnacht, preemptively or otherwise with our New Order, should help get Homura to bend the knee in conjunction with the grief lie detector. The New Order would spare Madoka the need to contract from magical girl infighting after all.

Whatever ratio of research and statebuilding we pursue is something that can be kept completely off the table. We don't have to worry about that right now. All we have to worry about, is that somebody may try to attack us by making us choose, by overloading us to the point we have to choose between an indeterminate legacy and leaving people to die, and we do not like that possibility.

Well, exactly. That's my point. We need to give her a role. She's had one as our advisor, but she can do better at that if she lives longer.

Alright, here's the thing: We're showing sympathy, but we're still trying to make her fit our worldview. Here's Oriko's World, as I perceive it:

  • She is the Protagonist. She is not a side character: She views everything as her responsiblity to fix. Kirika is her deuteragonist and love interest. Everyone else is either a bystander, supporting character, or antagonist.
  • Her life was meaningless, and she desperately needs to change that. To make a major difference and avert the End. She will not change this.
    • It doesn't matter if we think she's being stupid, or edgy, or whatever makes any given player disapprove of her stance. We have to work with this, because we can only break it by breaking the Oriko.
    • (This is just a suspicion.) We almost did. We took away her agency, imprisoned her, and gave her a happy daily life...and she almost gave up on her Wish because of it. She cannot abandon her pursuit of a meaningful life, no matter how happy she might be living a normal one. That would be literally fatal.
  • She can see almost all of the possible outcomes, and the unknown Sabrina represents is VERY risky to gamble on.
  • She loves Kirika, but the world is more important. If the world ends, they both die regardless...if their deaths can save almost everyone else, then it's absolutely worth it.
There's one thing she likely isn't fully aware of, too: The trauma from her father's fall from grace has left her with a suicidal impulse that is contradictory to her conscious beliefs.

We have to work with her beliefs. We cannot change her core convictions...but we can shift the secondary ones. We need to appeal to her existing values (the greater good and her responsibility for the world), in order to convince her of several things:
  • Sabrina is more than a side character or antagonist. She's a major party member and/or rival character. She can be an ally rather than a game piece, minion, or adversary.
  • Seemingly impossible futures are worth fighting for, and she can make them happen. We can help.
  • She can do a lot more good alive than dead, and dying prematurely is a betrayal of her own ideals.
Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precogonition
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.

Yes! This! "
  • She can do a lot more good alive than dead, and dying prematurely is a betrayal of her own ideals." In particular is exactly what we should be going for.
This is much better.

[x]Higure
 
So. Not directly relevant to the current update, but that little aside about Sabrina's long term goal has me wondering... we disagree on a lot of things, of course, but what long-ish (~1 year) goals can we all agree on?

This is not a ranking or priority list - if you disagree with a goal raised, it should be an issue with the goal in and of itself, not a concern about misused resources.

Let's start with some freebies:
• Keep the Mitakihara Quintet happy and alive.
• Defeat Walpurgisnacht.

A few others that were raised:
• Dewitching
• Ethical Grief Seed Alternatives
• Expanding our team
• Improved Cleansing Logistics
• Reduce Incubator influence on Earth

Any objections to any of these? Any other goals that you think everyone can agree on?
 
So. Not directly relevant to the current update, but that little aside about Sabrina's long term goal has me wondering... we disagree on a lot of things, of course, but what long-ish (~1 year) goals can we all agree on?

This is not a ranking or priority list - if you disagree with a goal raised, it should be an issue with the goal in and of itself, not a concern about misused resources.

Let's start with some freebies:
• Keep the Mitakihara Quintet happy and alive.
• Defeat Walpurgisnacht.

A few others that were raised:
• Dewitching
• Ethical Grief Seed Alternatives
• Expanding our team
• Improved Cleansing Logistics
• Reduce Incubator influence on Earth

Any objections to any of these? Any other goals that you think everyone can agree on?
If Feathers is an opposing actor, then it ought to be dealt with.
 
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