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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Conjured Blade said:
The Entropy angle... we may be able to solve that if we can get a sufficiently large barrier going. Then we find a way to make everybody in the universe into griefbenders. Give everybody the freedom to define their own reality. And then Humans were Nasuverse TYPES and the universe was made of reality marbles.

It's an insane supervillain plan. But if we can make our barrier insulate against the heat death of the universe it just might work.
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[q] Cut out the middleman.
-[q] Witch out for superpowersbarriers
 
The Incubators apparently have developed some means of converting Grief into energy, and we're going to have a pretty epic stockpile of Grief building up if we're cleansing every magical girl in the world. I suspect that a solution will emerge.


Kaizuki said:
That is exposing her visions as fallible, narrator.
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It raises the idea that she's seeing what she wants to see, but it doesn't address the fact that we've prevented her visions from coming true quite frequently or that they failed to show her less destructive options that she had available, both of which are pretty important points in disproving her "I have foreseen it, it is inevitable" excuse.

While Oriko might be letting herself die because she wants to die, her visions are the excuse she hides behind whenever we try to address this. I think we'll have to dismiss that idea before we can address the real issues. And because Oriko is being deliberately obtuse on the matter, we have to make it obvious: her visions are not inevitable because we've prevented them from coming true quite often.

On a related note:
Higure said:
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.
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Maybe include some specific points to hit regarding the fallibility of her visions? That we've prevented them from coming true quite often, that they failed to show her those less harmful options we asked about before, that they can't predict us at all, that they're showing her what she wants to see....

Higure said:
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
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Maybe change this to "meaningless" instead? Because her and Kirika dying right now would be pretty meaningless, as far as I can tell.

But in general, I'm liking this a lot better than the alternatives.

[x] Higure
 
The Narrator said:
The Incubators apparently have developed some means of converting Grief into energy, and we're going to have a pretty epic stockpile of Grief building up if we're cleansing every magical girl in the world. I suspect that a solution will emerge.



It raises the idea that she's seeing what she wants to see, but it doesn't address the fact that we've prevented her visions from coming true quite frequently or that they failed to show her less destructive options that she had available, both of which are pretty important points in disproving her "I have foreseen it, it is inevitable" excuse.

While Oriko might be letting herself die because she wants to die, her visions are the excuse she hides behind whenever we try to address this. I think we'll have to dismiss that idea before we can address the real issues. And because Oriko is being deliberately obtuse on the matter, we have to make it obvious: her visions are not inevitable because we've prevented them from coming true quite often.

On a related note:

Maybe include some specific points to hit regarding the fallibility of her visions? That we've prevented them from coming true quite often, that they failed to show her those less harmful options we asked about before, that they can't predict us at all, that they're showing her what she wants to see....
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Firn knows what Sabrina knows. I don't think we'll need a checklist...that said, I'll add something about "provide examples as needed."


Maybe change this to "meaningless" instead? Because her and Kirika dying right now would be pretty meaningless, as far as I can tell.
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I don't think that'd be a good idea. She has already judged the death she currently has in mind as meaningful...arguing it just creates extra conflict.

But in general, I'm liking this a lot better than the alternatives.

[x] Higure
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Thanks for your suggestions and your vote alike.

Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precognition.
Added that evidence of her visions' fallibility should be provided if needed, at the suggestion of The Narrator.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further.
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.



Previous Vote Versions and Associated Posts:
Higure said:
Alright, here's the thing: We're showing sympathy, but we're still trying to make her fit our worldview. Here's Oriko's World, as I perceive it:

  • She is the Protagonist. She is not a side character: She views everything as her responsiblity to fix. Kirika is her deuteragonist and love interest. Everyone else is either a bystander, supporting character, or antagonist.
  • Her life was meaningless, and she desperately needs to change that. To make a major difference and avert the End. She will not change this.
    • It doesn't matter if we think she's being stupid, or edgy, or whatever makes any given player disapprove of her stance. We have to work with this, because we can only break it by breaking the Oriko.
    • (This is just a suspicion.) We almost did. We took away her agency, imprisoned her, and gave her a happy daily life...and she almost gave up on her Wish because of it. She cannot abandon her pursuit of a meaningful life, no matter how happy she might be living a normal one. That would be literally fatal.
  • She can see almost all of the possible outcomes, and the unknown Sabrina represents is VERY risky to gamble on.
  • She loves Kirika, but the world is more important. If the world ends, they both die regardless...if their deaths can save almost everyone else, then it's absolutely worth it.
There's one thing she likely isn't fully aware of, too: The trauma from her father's fall from grace has left her with a suicidal impulse that is contradictory to her conscious beliefs.

We have to work with her beliefs. We cannot change her core convictions...but we can shift the secondary ones. We need to appeal to her existing values (the greater good and her responsibility for the world), in order to convince her of several things:
  • Sabrina is more than a side character or antagonist. She's a major party member and/or rival character. She can be an ally rather than a game piece, minion, or adversary.
  • Seemingly impossible futures are worth fighting for, and she can make them happen. We can help.
  • She can do a lot more good alive than dead, and dying prematurely is a betrayal of her own ideals.
Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precogonition
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
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Click to shrink...

Higure said:
Good idea. Adding.

Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precogonition
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further.
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
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Conjured Blade said:
The Entropy angle... we may be able to solve that if we can get a sufficiently large barrier going. Then we find a way to make everybody in the universe into griefbenders. Give everybody the freedom to define their own reality. And then Humans were Nasuverse TYPES and the universe was made of reality marbles.

It's an insane supervillain plan. But if we can make our barrier insulate against the heat death of the universe it just might work.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is sounding a bit too much like the Madara Eye in the Moon plan. Are you sure you didn't wander off into the wrong genre? :)
 
Higure said:
[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precogonition
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
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Click to shrink...

I do rather like this better still...

But, Hi-kun, maybe swap the saving the world bit up before destined to die? So

-[]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
--[] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
--[]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.

That way we properly intercept the generic repeated argument case.

[X] Higure
 
Higure said:
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further.
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
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Counterargument: we went over this the last talk with her and that went nowhere. "I'm not that Oriko," she said when we talked about happylovelove laser death beams.
 
thought.

OK so why are we all assuming Oriko's soul 'relaxing' is due to directly opposing us? People can feel something is *up* and whatever that is could be why her soul is relaxing. Given the manic grin in an early snip came around when we mentioned the soul-guca...

I don't know - I just think the soul stuff is more related to whatever is going on that we can't see then opposing us.

Anyway when dealing with people I think its best to consider the other persons own goals, wishes (hah haha... so many more meanings in PMMM) and overall agenda. How they weigh costs and benefits. Basically just try to empathize and view the situation from the other persons position.

I think we need to work on Oriko's daddy issues. Given how we NOTED her eyes glinting when we brought that up. We could also be dealing with something like how she may see she's fucked up and decided to double down on the sacrifice play as 'atonement' or she decided to go into denial... could also be based of her realizing she's doing what we dad did... maybe...what did her dad do??
 
Maybe we could ask the coobs about possible joint barrier research? He does have literal eons more experience in the area of grief manipulation even if we have the advantage of natural insight.
 
cmwatford said:
Maybe we could ask the coobs about possible joint barrier research? He does have literal eons more experience in the area of grief manipulation even if we have the advantage of natural insight.
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We will interact jointly with Kyubey in matters from a position of strength or not at all. If we have the potential to end heat death then our witching would provide energy equal to that potential is my understanding.
 
TheEyes said:
This is sounding a bit too much like the Madara Eye in the Moon plan. Are you sure you didn't wander off into the wrong genre? :)
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Nah, Madara's plan forced isolation: ConjuredBlade just means everyone being reality warpers who can create barriers, and travel between them, not giving everyone the Lotus Eater treatment.

Not saying it couldn't lead to...complications, but they'd be of the "Reality Warpers going to War" variety, most likely.

Kaizuki said:
Counterargument: we went over this the last talk with her and that went nowhere. "I'm not that Oriko," she said when we talked about happylovelove laser death beams.
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Err...I wasn't even thinking about that, honestly. It's just intended as "come on, Oriko, you can do better than this." She's a fairly intelligent precog who majored in Social and has an Anti-Magic minion. She can do a LOT more than just serving as a common enemy. I'll add something about NOT referencing Symmetry Diamond/parallel Orikos to the line.

Kaizuki said:
I do rather like this better still...

But, Hi-kun, maybe swap the saving the world bit up before destined to die? So

-[]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
--[] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
--[]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.

That way we properly intercept the generic repeated argument case.

[X] Higure
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That seems like a good idea. Will do.

Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precognition.
Added that evidence of her visions' fallibility should be provided if needed, at the suggestion of The Narrator.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further. (Do NOT reference other Orikos/Symmetry Diamond. This is about our confidence in this Oriko.)
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
Added a forbiddance on discussing parallel Orikos.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.


Previous Versions of Vote and Associated Posts:
Higure said:
Alright, here's the thing: We're showing sympathy, but we're still trying to make her fit our worldview. Here's Oriko's World, as I perceive it:

  • She is the Protagonist. She is not a side character: She views everything as her responsiblity to fix. Kirika is her deuteragonist and love interest. Everyone else is either a bystander, supporting character, or antagonist.
  • Her life was meaningless, and she desperately needs to change that. To make a major difference and avert the End. She will not change this.
    • It doesn't matter if we think she's being stupid, or edgy, or whatever makes any given player disapprove of her stance. We have to work with this, because we can only break it by breaking the Oriko.
    • (This is just a suspicion.) We almost did. We took away her agency, imprisoned her, and gave her a happy daily life...and she almost gave up on her Wish because of it. She cannot abandon her pursuit of a meaningful life, no matter how happy she might be living a normal one. That would be literally fatal.
  • She can see almost all of the possible outcomes, and the unknown Sabrina represents is VERY risky to gamble on.
  • She loves Kirika, but the world is more important. If the world ends, they both die regardless...if their deaths can save almost everyone else, then it's absolutely worth it.
There's one thing she likely isn't fully aware of, too: The trauma from her father's fall from grace has left her with a suicidal impulse that is contradictory to her conscious beliefs.

We have to work with her beliefs. We cannot change her core convictions...but we can shift the secondary ones. We need to appeal to her existing values (the greater good and her responsibility for the world), in order to convince her of several things:
  • Sabrina is more than a side character or antagonist. She's a major party member and/or rival character. She can be an ally rather than a game piece, minion, or adversary.
  • Seemingly impossible futures are worth fighting for, and she can make them happen. We can help.
  • She can do a lot more good alive than dead, and dying prematurely is a betrayal of her own ideals.
Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precogonition
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Higure said:
Good idea. Adding.

Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precogonition
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further.
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
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Higure said:
Firn knows what Sabrina knows. I don't think we'll need a checklist...that said, I'll add something about "provide examples as needed."


I don't think that'd be a good idea. She has already judged the death she currently has in mind as meaningful...arguing it just creates extra conflict.

Thanks for your suggestions and your vote alike.

Plan (Explanations for lines are in Green):

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
Opposing her on her right to die is going to put her back up. Agreeing with her should weaken her guard.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
Much like Hitomi's situation, we need to find out exactly what her issue is, or we'll be shooting at targets that may not exist. Notably, we need to determine if she consciously wants to die, or simply thinks it's inevitable.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
Oriko's really bad about being blinded by her own precognition.
Added that evidence of her visions' fallibility should be provided if needed, at the suggestion of The Narrator.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
While I'm kind of passionate personally on this topic, it's a very literal situation here: Magic is so valuable because it casually violates the laws of physics. Causality and possibility can be overcome, with such power.
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
Appealing to her emotions on this issue isn't going to work great. Appealing to pragmatism, though, might be more successful.
----[X}Uniting our allies is only a fraction of what we know she can achieve, if she's willing to reach further.
Addendum suggested by TheEyes, pointing out that the benefits of her current goal are quite limited, compared to her potential contributions.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
I don't think she is knowingly trying to kill herself for it's own sake, and it's a loaded enough situation that a dedicated vote would be best.
-[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
Simple enough: She loves Kirika. She doesn't want to kill the girl, but she's willing to do so for the greater good. What this basically comes down to is trying to help her find a way of having her cake and eating it too.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
Can't predict everything.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
We can't fix a problem we can't actually recognize, as usual.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
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Vote Tally : Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 4299 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4

[x] Calm down a bit before continuing. Tone: Gentle, but firm. Don't raise your voice. Don't antagonize.
[x] But why does it have to be Oriko?
[x] Your powers showed you what you wanted. A way to die meaningfully. But that's not what you wished for.
[x] Politely request her to put it all out and tell you everything, no hiding, no single-line answers. If she tries to circumvent the question or leaves out details in any way, gently call her out on it, and swerve back to the topic. "It's necessary" is not an answer.
No. of Votes: 16
DrZiztah
AuraTwilight
cmwatford
ctulhuslp
defenestrator
Demojay
Gadjo
Guilop
Jrin
Matou Sutegobana
mistfist
MrLZRS
Muramasa
Onmur
Sailor Midgard
UbeOne

[X] Explain that you agree: Oriko has that right. That doesn't mean she needs to do it as soon as possible. You understand wanting to die doing something meaningful, and wanting to live the same way.
-[X]Ask her outright: Is this about saving the world, or about ending her life? She can do a lot more alive than she can do by dying immediately...but her fixation on her own demise suggests she's just in a rush to get it over with.
--[X] If she says it's about saving the world, then ask her what needs to change in order for her and Kirika to live a meaningful life together and eventually die a meaningful death as heroes, rather than simply dying meaningful deaths as villains.
--[X]If she says she's destined to die, and is simply trying to make sure it counts, point out the fallibility of her visions. Provide examples and such as needed, if she doesn't immediately concede on their fallibility.
---[X]She is a magical girl. Magic doesn't submit, letting the universe and its laws dictate what happens: Magic is a Wish or a Curse...it defies Order, Law, and Fate to create impossibilities. Why the hell is she submitting to something she is capable of conquering?!
---[X]Letting her personal lack of hope keep her from doing as much as she can...that's a waste. A waste of all of her and Kirika's potential.
-[X]If she admits she simply wants to die: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she answers in some other way: Hear her out, then Return to Voting.
-[X] If she tries to dodge the question, push her for a proper answer. The only way we can help her is if we know her problem...and trying to play all of her cards close to her chest is crippling both of our options.
No. of Votes: 6
Higure
Conjured Blade
Kaizuki
Sereg
The Narrator
TheEyes

[x] I'm going to keep thinking about this, clearing my current vote
No. of Votes: 1
Vebyast

Total No. of Voters: 23
 
DB_Explorer said:
thought.

OK so why are we all assuming Oriko's soul 'relaxing' is due to directly opposing us? People can feel something is *up* and whatever that is could be why her soul is relaxing. Given the manic grin in an early snip came around when we mentioned the soul-guca...

I don't know - I just think the soul stuff is more related to whatever is going on that we can't see then opposing us.

Anyway when dealing with people I think its best to consider the other persons own goals, wishes (hah haha... so many more meanings in PMMM) and overall agenda. How they weigh costs and benefits. Basically just try to empathize and view the situation from the other persons position.

I think we need to work on Oriko's daddy issues. Given how we NOTED her eyes glinting when we brought that up. We could also be dealing with something like how she may see she's fucked up and decided to double down on the sacrifice play as 'atonement' or she decided to go into denial... could also be based of her realizing she's doing what we dad did... maybe...what did her dad do??
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I agree that it's more than just opposing us...jumped to that conclusion early on, but I agree that it was somewhat erroneous. I think the reason it's "relaxing" is because she's resolved to continue trying to save the world, rather than trying to abandon her goal. Defying us is just a symptom of that.

Her dad taught raised her to believe in doing what's right at any cost...then he turned around and betrayed those ideals by embezzling money and killing himself to escape prosecution.

If anything, her trying to keep her head down and focus on personal happiness is her equivalent of his sin: Putting her own happiness before her ideals.

Kaizuki said:
Also can you make the green a good deal darker my poor eyes.
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Ah, sure. It's my favored color for making something stand out, but this is a lot more text than usual. I'll tone it down as we move forward.

Edit: Toned it down in the current vote. Starts getting hard to see if I get much darker, though: I use FlexGold.
 
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Kaizuki said:
Counterargument: we went over this the last talk with her and that went nowhere. "I'm not that Oriko," she said when we talked about happylovelove laser death beams.
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We don't need to bring up other timelines. Oriko and Kirika have been a big help to us since we caught them. So much so that we've found ourselves flailing around aimlessly without her precog to point us at the problem.
 
Some things can't just be fixed. Perhaps we are looking at this from the wrong angle. It's pretty hard to present a case to O and K if we are still divided on the homefront. Even after capturing Oriko and having her help us, she's still wreaking havoc on us. We should be trying to convince Homura.
 
I actually had a pretty decent plan for actually starting to deal with Homura, but now I'm not sure it'll be a good idea, with how we're antagonizing Oriko.
 
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