Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Admiral Skippy said:
[warning=Warning]This kind of transparent sniping contributes nothing to the quest other than needless vitriol.

If you disagree with @Sereg's position or reasoning, then use your words and articulate why. Or don't if you find it too much effort. I get that oftentimes quest arguments and the personalities therein can be inordinately frustrating, but if you can't think of something substantive or positive to say, then you are under no obligation to say anything at all. There are so many better things you can do with your time, like going for a walk or reading a book. I've given you a Warning for Marginal Behaviour and a daylong threadban. Please don't do this again.

Thanks for your time.[/warning]
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I apologise.
 
In the interests of being slightly more productive, @Sereg , do you hold the following two statements to be literally true as written:
Sereg said:
I agree with every single judgement Sayaka has ever made and believe she'd have done far better than we have with the same amount of knowledge and power.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Sereg said:
I absolutely hold Sabrina accountable for almost everything that has happened in the quest. Because she absolutely is responsible for most of it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Onmur said:
Well, there's the fact she tried to slap us because she likes jumping to conclusions now. I think that's a tad more aggressive.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Yes, because she does not have a bunch of supposedly more calm, rational and sensible people in her head. Nor does she have cosmic powers and responsibility which comes with them.
Sabrina must be held to the higher standard than distressed 14-year old which probably has just heard something extremely triggering to her.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Yes, because she does not have a bunch of supposedly more calm, rational and sensible people in her head. Nor does she have cosmic powers and responsibility which comes with them.
Sabrina must be held to the higher standard than distressed 14-year old which probably has just heard something extremely triggering to her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's not like we're slapping her back. As many have said, we need to show some emotion at Hitomi's out-of-place action.
 
Onmur said:
It's not like we're slapping her back. As many have said, we need to show some emotion at Hitomi's out-of-place action.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Well,
Jrin said:
I wonder if she seen face something in her past considering her actions.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

this. Being all emotional before knowing her reasons is typical miscommunication scenario. She may well have appropriately dramatic background. We don't mention setting churches on fire near Kyouko or killing Madoka near Homura - for all we know this (vigilantism, missing hands, something else) is issue of the same emotional magnitude to Hitomi. We shouldn't dismiss her feelings on this issue on it just because we, without any knowledge of what's going on in her head, decided it is out of place.

It may still be out of place, but we have no reason to suspect Hitomi of being too impulsive. Quite the opposite, in fact. Hence my preference for short post with only a question and return to voting.
 
Last edited:
Fair Letters said:
In the interests of being slightly more productive, @Sereg , do you hold the following two statements to be literally true as written:
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I consider the statement "literally true as written" to be a lot more ambiguous than most do. Eg. What does "almost" in the phrase "almost everything mean", two different people will disagree with each other even if they are both being literal. I can just try to elaborate on my meaning.


"I agree with every single judgement Sayaka has ever made and believe she'd have done far better than we have with the same amount of knowledge and power."

This depends on how you're defining "judgement". I admit that I was using it a bit on the strict side in this statement.

Sayaka and I have very similar worldviews, ways of seeing and judging things and approaches to the nature of responsibility and so forth. The judgements people criticise Sayaka on are ones I believe are either, correct, only incorrect due to lack of information she is not at fault for and which I can see myself making in the same situation or only natural due intense emotional trauma due to being about to witch out. Sayaka's nature to be critical and judgemental, as people see it, are only towards those that I consider to be deserving of the criticism and judgement. Sayaka's values and weighing of priorities are ones I consider moral, admirable and appropriate for emulation. I consider those who consider her to have failed to have entirely missed her real goal, which she achieved. Actions she is criticised for are ones I support and typically hope I'd be strong enough to do myself. Flaws people call her out for are ones I consider virtues or a result of being deceived through no fault of her own.

Sayaka and Sabrina have a few similarities as far as basic character is concerned. There are reasons for this. Sayaka's biggest things holding her back though are lack of knowledge and lack of power. With Sabrina's knowledge and power she'd know exactly who to trust, all the problems with the system, where to direct her efforts, would avoid her tendency to witchout and would no longer struggle to defeat ordinary opponents, meaning she'd have all the advantages Sabrina currently has over her. That said, Sayaka has many other advantages Sabrina doesn't, or at least, relatively. Sabrina can still be pretty good about these, if less than Sayaka. Singlemindedness: Sayaka is incredibly stubborn and determined, fighting to her last breath, at any cost, even against literally impossible odds, with no distraction. Sayaka wouldn't just try to save the world. She'd work herself to the bone on it and would only be distracted by things that need her to rescue them. She also doesn't have to debate between loads of people to convince herself of the best action. Willingness to get her hands dirty: Sayaka will do whatever it takes to make the world a better place, as long as it doesn't compromise her morals. She has no problem executing others or using dangerous techniques others advise against. If there's a problem, Sayaka won't let squeamishness stop he from getting the job done. Purity: Sayaka does not make "hard girl making hard decisions" actions she later regrets were necessary. She does not compromise on her morals. Ever. And would not therefore deal with certain problems we've been struggling with. Selflessness: Sayaka gave up what she truly wanted, partially so a friend could have it and partially because she had another mission. There were other reasons too, but Sayaka would dedicate herself to her mission, even at the cost of her own wants. Certainty of mission: "I am a rock that is only good for killing witches". Sayaka would not doubt that it was her mission to save the Universe and would not back down form that goal. Recruitment: Sayaka does not actually social well. However, Sayaka has no problem pointing out to others that they could be doing a far better job at making the world a better place. We struggle with that as we don't want to burden others.

So yes, I think Sayaka would have done better.

"I absolutely hold Sabrina accountable for almost everything that has happened in the quest. Because she absolutely is responsible for most of it."

With power and knowledge comes responsibility. Sabrina is fully aware that she could save a lot more people than she actually does, but refuses to do so. So yes, I blame her for that.
 
Last edited:
Sereg said:
With Sabrina's knowledge and power she'd know exactly who to trust,
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And here's where we are at odds once again. We don't know exactly who to trust. We take large risks in every person we meet that's not from Mitakihara or Kasamino.

Sereg said:
So yes, I think Sayaka would have done better.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think we'll just have to consider our differences in opinion regarding Sayaka too vast to bridge.
 
Sereg said:
Singlemindedness: Sayaka is incredibly stubborn and determined, fighting to her last breath, at any cost, even against literally impossible odds, with no distraction. Sayaka wouldn't just try to save the world. She'd work herself to the bone on it and would only be distracted by things that need her to rescue them. She also doesn't have to debate between loads of people to convince herself of the best action.
Willingness to get her hands dirty: Sayaka will do whatever it takes to make the world a better place, as long as it doesn't compromise her morals. She has no problem executing others or using dangerous techniques others advise against. If there's a problem, Sayaka won't let squeamishness stop he from getting the job done.
Purity: Sayaka does not make "hard girl making hard decisions" actions she later regrets were necessary. She does not compromise on her morals. Ever. And would not therefore deal with certain problems we've been struggling with.
Selflessness: Sayaka gave up what she truly wanted, partially so a friend could have it and partially because she had another mission. There were other reasons too, but Sayaka would dedicate herself to her mission, even at the cost of her own wants.
Certainty of mission: "I am a rock that is only good for killing witches". Sayaka would not doubt that it was her mission to save the Universe and would not back down form that goal.
Recruitment: Sayaka does not actually social well. However, Sayaka has no problem pointing out to others that they could be doing a far better job at making the world a better place. We struggle with that as we don't want to burden others.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Um. These don't look like positive traits to me.
They look like traits that would result in those quests that have a lone wolf protagonist going around leaving piles of dead in their wake.

Sereg said:
"I absolutely hold Sabrina accountable for almost everything that has happened in the quest. Because she absolutely is responsible for most of it."

With power and knowledge comes responsibility. Sabrina is fully aware that she could save a lot more people than she actually does, but refuses to do so. So yes, I blame her for that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
So, to confirm, you hold her responsible for Sayaka's house being blown up and the suffering inflicted by Akiko's group?
Or is it that by "almost everything" you mean "pretty much nothing that is actually wrong"?

landcollector said:
I think we'll just have to consider our differences in opinion regarding Sayaka too vast to bridge.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That's kinda what I was getting at with my uncivil post.
 
landcollector said:
And here's where we are at odds once again. We don't know exactly who to trust. We take large risks in every person we meet that's not from Mitakihara or Kasamino.


I think we'll just have to consider our differences in opinion regarding Sayaka too vast to bridge.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Admittedly, I meant "from canon" there, but it'd certainly give her a lot more perspective to make more insightful judgements. As you said, we're guessing blindly there too, so can we really say Sayaka would do worse there?

But fair enough n your latter statement.

EDIT:

Um. These don't look like positive traits to me.
They look like traits that would result in those quests that have a lone wolf protagonist going around leaving piles of dead in their wake.

Sereg said: ↑
"I absolutely hold Sabrina accountable for almost everything that has happened in the quest. Because she absolutely is responsible for most of it."

With power and knowledge comes responsibility. Sabrina is fully aware that she could save a lot more people than she actually does, but refuses to do so. So yes, I blame her for that.​
So, to confirm, you hold her responsible for Sayaka's house being blown up and the suffering inflicted by Akiko's group?
Or is it that by "almost everything" you mean "pretty much nothing that is actually wrong"?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Well, if they don't look like positive traits to you, that's your opinion. As for the kind of quest it'd result in, price of progress. Besides, those dead people would be people who the world is better off without.

And yes, I hold Sabrina partially responsible for those things. If we were more proactive, like Firn warned us to be, we could have done more about those things (obviously the suffering inflicted before we were born only takes our responsibility into account when it comes to temporal shenanigans though)
 
Last edited:
[Q] EMERGENCY GROUP HUG!
-[Q] Once everybody's immobilized calm, ask if they want to watch a movie.
--[Q] Call Homura to get you all in timestop for the extra realistic experience.
---[Q] Grief make 3D movie version of The Oriko Hunt (uncensored version) and 3D glasses for everyone.
----[Q] Sit back and watch!
-----[Q] Five minutes in, ask if anybody wants popcorn, and go make some.
------[Q] Make innapropriate comments at appropriate moments.
-------[Q] Boo and throw popcorn at the screen when Oriko first appears.
--------[Q] Cheer at Mami's best moves.
 
Sereg said:
Well, if they don't look like positive traits to you, that's your opinion
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Um, no. Singlemindedness (for example) is a frequent cause of ruin and despair, both in quests and in the real world. I'm pretty unconvinced that alienating all the other characters would have lead to a better quest. Could even end with a bullet through our soul gem.

Sereg said:
Besides, those dead people would be people who the world is better off without.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Those dead people would include Oriko, Kiraka, Homura (or Sabrina, depending), Mami (bombs away!), most of the girls in Sendai and probably Sayaka as well (yay witchouts). Then Kyuubi gets fed up and arranges our death.
 
Fair Letters said:
Um, no. Singlemindedness (for example) is a frequent cause of ruin and despair, both in quests and in the real world. I'm pretty unconvinced that alienating all the other characters would have lead to a better quest. Could even end with a bullet through our soul gem.


Those dead people would include Oriko, Kiraka, Homura (or Sabrina, depending), Mami (bombs away!), most of the girls in Sendai and probably Sayaka as well (yay witchouts). Then Kyuubi gets fed up and arranges our death.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Singlemindedness is also the path to genius. Also, define "better". I'm strictly talking about success in "breaking the system" here. That's all. Also, Sayaka would have actually got her act together and have perfect defenses against guns by now. Something we continually put off.

As for the dead people, possibly, but I doubt it. Rebellion proves that a knowledgeable, powerful Sayaka is perfectly capable of working with others. She's just as capable of siphoning grief as us in this situation and also cares about Mami (a lot. She hero worships her) and she's not going to witchout with our power and knowledge. (For a start, she'd sooner smash her own gem, and secondly, she can cleanse as well as we can).
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top