As it should be. What should our catchphrase be once we start conquering in earnest? I've always been partial to 'VAE VICTIS' but we want to steal the woes of the conquered not give them more.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- South Africa
"Reap guai!"
Or in the language you suggested:
"Confirma vae!"
Also, I do think that my additions are appropriate for helping calm down the others while asking for explanation, and it is still very short.
- Location
- Illinois
That said? I was too harsh on them.
Sayaka's a teenager, and expecting adult discipline is rather too much. She'll need to cultivate it to survive, but she's still green and deserves some leeway. We need to make sure she learns to temper herself, though, or it will bite her in the future.
Hitomi is also a teen, and we've actively sheltered her from this: The fact she demonstrated this degree of ego is understandable, considering she has no clue about how much we know, the amount of thought we put into things, or the real nature of a Magus's life. If we want her to avoid such failures of judgement in the future, we need to let her know what she's dealing with.
So, yeah. There are problems with everyone here except Mami (probably her too, really). What we need to focus on is how to address those. Even our overconfidence, I guess.
Sayaka's a teenager, and expecting adult discipline is rather too much. She'll need to cultivate it to survive, but she's still green and deserves some leeway. We need to make sure she learns to temper herself, though, or it will bite her in the future.
Hitomi is also a teen, and we've actively sheltered her from this: The fact she demonstrated this degree of ego is understandable, considering she has no clue about how much we know, the amount of thought we put into things, or the real nature of a Magus's life. If we want her to avoid such failures of judgement in the future, we need to let her know what she's dealing with.
So, yeah. There are problems with everyone here except Mami (probably her too, really). What we need to focus on is how to address those. Even our overconfidence, I guess.
Higu, I'm right with you. We brought them here to do right by them. A few of my vote proposals have included text that highlights that point and the incontinence of their actions with that fact. And they've done... this.
We and Mami have equally erred here, by not qualifying our explanation terribly well, among other things. Mami should not have acted physically -- but then, as I've noted, how could she not? What after all does this look like to her? It looks like a fallout, leading towards a fight, especially when Sayaka and Hitomi get physical with her best friend / quasi-waifu / dependency focus.
The current state of affairs among Meguca is morally unacceptable from a modern perspective. Even if we manage dewitching, defeat scarcity with artificial seeds, etcetera etcetera, we still have to deal with the fact that Meguca can commit criminal acts against normals without repercussion. On the one hand, that could involve kicking the QBs out so they can't memory wipe anymore, and then working with normie governments to provide enforcement, which would undoubtedly result in some degree of paranoia and reactionism from the normie side that we would have a hard time tolerating. On the other hand, it could involve imposing some form of government on the Meguca side. The imposition of government requires getting populace at large to submit to that imposition. Many will do so peacefully, seeking protection and calmer lives in exchange for certain restrictions on their actions. But equally, there will be some who will refuse that same deal, for whatever reason. Maybe they don't want to have to stop abusing their boyfriend. Maybe they're monsters. Maybe they're just anarchists and/or fear what government might evolve into. Hell, maybe they're QB cultists. And those people would have to be coerced.
Irregardless of methodology, we are faced with a simple reality: at this moment in time, the Mitakihara group is probably the dominant world power among meguca, by sheer virtue of having a few elite members who are completely unchained from normal restrictions on spending magic. Three members went to fight in the Ishinomaki-Sendai conflict, and were able to not just win, but to nonlethally subdue each and every single opponent they faced despite those opponents' free use of lethal force, and when everything was said and done, those three members didn't have a speck of corruption in their gems. If we had felt the circumstances had justified it, if we had gone into those fights willing to use lethal force, we would have blown through twenty, thirty magical girls without breaking a sweat.
We are a superpower with actual ethics in a largely lawless and sometimes immoral setting. We've already made a policy of intervening in situations where we see Meguca acting or being treated inhumanely. It might take years before that escalates thoroughly, although Sabrina will likely have a global impact much sooner than that, but what happens when our members finish/leave school and aren't tied down to Mitakihara anymore? What happens when it becomes clear to meguca worldwide that we won't refuse a request for protection? What happens when a weak meguca observes a stronger meguca abusing normies, and, not liking it but unable to prevent it, decides that she should send a message to us? We're probably already on the cusp of seeing this sort of behavior in Japan after Ishinomaki-Sendai. Once it gets out that we're actually honoring (and, by extension, enforcing) the agreements we made, we're going to be national figures. Somebody is going to come to us, and we aren't going to turn them away.
There are literally three options open to us. Divorce our morals, gradually become effectively the feudal bosses of however much territory as Pax Mitakihara spreads simply through our intolerance of war, or actively build a government.
- Location
- Illinois
So, I think I'd like to note something here, because perception of this is just getting absurd.
Leeeeeeeeeeeeeeeet's examine this vote.
1. Calm down. Hold Mami's hand for mutual comfort. Ask Mami to please release Hitomi. You all still need to talk, there's much Sayaka and Hitomi need to know.
-> ...
2. Inform Hitomi there are things she needs to know before judging your actions. The realities Magical Girls face are different, harsher than she knows.
-> ...
3. Sayaka, you have a right to be angry- about things and about this situation, but please don't break any more of Mami's furniture. As a magical girl, you're strong enough to hurt someone or worse, by accident.
-> ...
4. Ask Hitomi what she meant.
-> LE GASP! We've argued, uh, zero, zero, zero things. And now we're asking what Hitomi meant.
5. If she brings up Justice proceedings {then: do this:}
-> So, if she meant this then we say these things. Hmmm, that doesn't seem like it's not figuring out what Hitomi meant...
6. If she thinks we took Oriko's arm in exchange for Hitomi's, {then: do this:}
-> ...
7. You weren't out for revenge, you just wanted to stop them before anybody else got hurt, or worse. Not completely healing Oriko's arm at the time was a concession so it wasn't just their word that they'd stay under house arrest. Oriko's slowly regenerating her arm on her own, and they haven't tried anything yet, so she should have it back soon.
-> Note the --. Subaction of 6.
8. If they're upset, admit again we made a mistake; we shouldn't have kept this from them. You apologize. You're trying to correct that mistake.
-> ...
So, let's suppose Hitomi says something out of left field. The vote doesn't reply with anything if that happens.
Where are we arguing things without figuring out what we're arguing against?
Literally a giant strawman that nobody has bothered to shoot down. And for the people who are out there saying we should one-line a "what do you mean Hitomi," let me just remind you of my argument against that:
If you went and slapped somebody and told them they had no right to X, and they asked what you meant, how would you respond? Because you wouldn't give them an answer, you'd just slap them again and yell at them.
And on that note, @Onmur, I'm going to push this one last time as an alteration:
[] Tell Hitomi that you need to ask her a question before you can answer her, and note that as strange as it may seem to her you're really asking in good faith. Then, ask Hitomi what she meant.
Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
Hmm...dimitto maeror? Forsake Grief?
Yep. No one's in the right here, but everyone's actions are understandable and sympathetic. Makes it hard, especially when you're effectively one of them...and have just barely evaded a literal slap to the face.
On the issue of those who are opposed to being governed/restricted, I think we might have an option: Voluntary Exile. One of the great injustices of modern governance is that there is no alternative. By immigrating, a person can choose who to be governed and restricted by, but the days where someone who wanted freedom could take their chances in the wilderness and live independently of others has been lost as every land in this world is now under someone's rule. It renders the idea that government exists at the consent of the governed incredible: Living free is no longer an option.
As Magi, however, we are in the unique position to change this. Barriers can create entire worlds, rendering land scarcity a thing of the past...if we can find a way to make one that is both benign and self-perpetuating, which I am fairly confident we can. If not, Magic also makes the terraforming and occupation of other planets, or the establishment of livable undersea environments, completely viable. Rather than forcing the unwilling to accept our rule, we can give them an alternative: In this way, we can reduce resistance and minimize the degree of tyranny we must take part in.
Those who do not wish to live under our rule may leave, and return if they decide otherwise after a time (many will). Those who prove unwilling to actually obey our laws can be exiled and banned from returning: The need for long-term imprisonment eliminated by the option of deportation. It's still got flaws, and we may need to stop the occasional invasion from such places, but it is a cleaner option than breaking them to our will.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Everybody who wants this addition please give catgirl two posts up an Insightful!
Everybody who thinks catgirl is a worrywart give catgirl a pity Hugs!
- Location
- Illinois
*opens mouth*
*closes mouth*
Dayumn, Witch-kun. Uh, wow.
That... That option is both so utterly brilliant, moral, and horrific all at once holy shit. @Sereg.
Oh my god that raises so many lethal morality problems holy fuck. What about normie-side connections? Do we expect teenagers to leave parents behind? Boyfriends? Sisters? I... I suppose that in conjunction with a normal penal system it's legitimate. Maybe. On the assumption that a normal penal system would be legitimate. Which... teenagers. No. And that raises the question of whether offering planetary exile as an alternative is moral when dealing with minors. I mean, even Juvie as it exists is, uh... Not exactly moral.
I suppose life expectancy will rapidly increase past adolescence if we have our way. So that...
Aaaaaaanyway I think I'm going to go scream externally now, nyan.
You thinking way too far ahead. Calm down and focus on more short-term and mid-term concerns.
- Location
- Illinois
Landcollector, I think it's on topic, interesting, that the current vote is to my liking, and that my short/mid-term plans are largely solidified, thank you.
Only so long as the method of exile is as a ribbon-based human cannonball.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
No! We don't want good people to get exiled on purpose!Only so long as the method of exile is as a ribbon-based human cannonball.
I guess I'm adding:
[] Tell Hitomi that you need to ask her a question before you can answer her, and note that as strange as it may seem to her you're really asking in good faith. Then, ask Hitomi what she meant.
I'm sure Mami will tie an elastic ribbon on the ones who just want to use the Giant Exile Cannon as a thrill ride.
Like Kirika. And Kirika. And also for Kirika.
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Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
Well most of the short votes don't ask Mami to release Hitomi. In fact I would prefer to praise her.
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Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
A lot of detailed work would be needed to insure things are handled morally, of course, but a large benefit to the situation is in the nature of Magi: An average Magus, by virtue of sheer power, is no longer dependent on their family for food or safety. As Kyouko has shown, housing and sustenance can be gained easily, without even resorting to bloodshed.
This means that underage Magi still living with their parents are doing so because they are:
- Willing to obey out of loyalty to their parents. These girls will generally obey the law to avoid disappointing or being separated from their families. If they DO break the law (due to an impulsive action or unusual situation) they would likely be willing to accept a "conventional" form of imprisonment: House arrest or an extended stay at Magi-run prison/rehabilitatipn facility.
- Incredibly weak magically, such that they can be managed by conventional means. Easy to keep in line or handle the old-fashioned way.
- Still kept in line by social pressures, such that they're still living a normal life outside of hunting. These girls, like Type 1 girls, will play by the rules under normal circumstances, and can be handled very gently.
- Are using magic to abuse or control their families. Excepting the occasional Magus reining in abusive parents, these need to be separated from their families in order to protect said families.
Any exceptions would need to be addressed on a case-by-case basis, but it shouldn't be too onerous.
That leaves underage Magi who have cut ties with their families. These Magi have chosen to forsake the protection of their guardians, and should be treated as emancipated: They should permitted to choose Exile over other options, or be forced into Exile if they repeatedly violate the terms of their conventional imprisonment or repeatedly commit major offenses (murder, rape, arson, torture, severe cases of unjustified assault upon a mundane, etcetera).
Compulsory Exile should ideally be a rare thing, reserved for those who have proven unable or unwilling to coexist with society (as outlined above) not minor troublemakers.
That said, I expect many minor criminal Magi would choose voluntary Exile over extended imprisonment, which will relieve pressure on government resources while sparing the Magus in question the fate they wish to avoid. It's mutually beneficial, and those who depart this way will be cutting ties with family and friends voluntarily, not because they were forced to. While some of these may die or suffer a worse fate than imprisonment, taking that risk is their choice, and their free will needs to be respected.
Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
On the topic of Governance for our definitely-not-the-MSY:
With Clear Seeds making Cleansing a non-issue we're either going to have to invent a post-scarcity government wholesale ourselves or artificially introduce scarcity, of which I honestly favor the latter since it's simply way easier both for us and for girls new to the system to wrap their heads around. That being said, I don't really want to starve girls for cleanses, and I don't know what else we can use as scarce resources that will make the Citizenry compete for that rather than becoming delinquent and lounging or causing trouble.
Once we establish a Meguca Government, people nearby will likely try to establish their own, probably in an attempt not to be run by "those fucking Japanese Foreigners". Most of these proto-nations will fail, and it's sad, but it's also necessary. A few will not fail, and will stabilize somewhere well below our own stable size. Most will probably be fairly hostile at first, both to us and to their own - The natal stages of Civilization involves laws along the lines of "Don't do this or me and my friends will shank you." Given these girls are from already civilized cultures though, I expect this stage to be startlingly brief compared to the Human version. After what I (charitably, probably) assume will be slightly less than a Human lifetime, these Tribal States will form into more democratic or at least advanced forms of government, the "Don't do this or me and my police will put you in jail" stage. With trade undoubtedly starting up between these nations beforehand, they'll have Clear Seeds too. They just won't be able to generate them. Part of why I think we (as a nation) should have a sizable stockpile of clear seeds the citizenry doesn't have access to. It's a trading resource, and will be useful during these early stages to promote trade and thereby stop wars. As we run out of witches and Clear Seed production drops, we will probably have several "Meguca Nations" with trade between them, most of whom are dependent not on Clear Seed production but another form of governance that regulates Cleanses through a system that works without Sabrina propping it up like Atlas.
That's optimal, because then we start to copy their systems, and we can slow down Clear Seed production to the point that we can Science with Mami for basically the rest of time, having extended the Meguca lifespan by probably over 200% without addicting them to Clear Seeds to the point that society collapses wholesale whenever we die or bow out of the system. That's our endgoal. That's the most moral and logically viable way to do this: We need to kickstart development in a way that doesn't depend on Clear Seeds, because even if we are clinically immortal, we're not invulnerable, and we will eventually die of something.
The world has to be able to survive without us in it in a way that makes Meguca live longer. We need to Civilize the State of Nature, and impose Meguca Will upon it.
So yeah, Hitomi, we did Pass Judgement, as was our right.
*MSY National Anthem Plays*
With Clear Seeds making Cleansing a non-issue we're either going to have to invent a post-scarcity government wholesale ourselves or artificially introduce scarcity, of which I honestly favor the latter since it's simply way easier both for us and for girls new to the system to wrap their heads around. That being said, I don't really want to starve girls for cleanses, and I don't know what else we can use as scarce resources that will make the Citizenry compete for that rather than becoming delinquent and lounging or causing trouble.
Once we establish a Meguca Government, people nearby will likely try to establish their own, probably in an attempt not to be run by "those fucking Japanese Foreigners". Most of these proto-nations will fail, and it's sad, but it's also necessary. A few will not fail, and will stabilize somewhere well below our own stable size. Most will probably be fairly hostile at first, both to us and to their own - The natal stages of Civilization involves laws along the lines of "Don't do this or me and my friends will shank you." Given these girls are from already civilized cultures though, I expect this stage to be startlingly brief compared to the Human version. After what I (charitably, probably) assume will be slightly less than a Human lifetime, these Tribal States will form into more democratic or at least advanced forms of government, the "Don't do this or me and my police will put you in jail" stage. With trade undoubtedly starting up between these nations beforehand, they'll have Clear Seeds too. They just won't be able to generate them. Part of why I think we (as a nation) should have a sizable stockpile of clear seeds the citizenry doesn't have access to. It's a trading resource, and will be useful during these early stages to promote trade and thereby stop wars. As we run out of witches and Clear Seed production drops, we will probably have several "Meguca Nations" with trade between them, most of whom are dependent not on Clear Seed production but another form of governance that regulates Cleanses through a system that works without Sabrina propping it up like Atlas.
That's optimal, because then we start to copy their systems, and we can slow down Clear Seed production to the point that we can Science with Mami for basically the rest of time, having extended the Meguca lifespan by probably over 200% without addicting them to Clear Seeds to the point that society collapses wholesale whenever we die or bow out of the system. That's our endgoal. That's the most moral and logically viable way to do this: We need to kickstart development in a way that doesn't depend on Clear Seeds, because even if we are clinically immortal, we're not invulnerable, and we will eventually die of something.
The world has to be able to survive without us in it in a way that makes Meguca live longer. We need to Civilize the State of Nature, and impose Meguca Will upon it.
So yeah, Hitomi, we did Pass Judgement, as was our right.
*MSY National Anthem Plays*
Diomedea
A piece of the continent
- Location
- The interblag
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Remember that meguca have a necessary logistics train. We're still effectively in control even if we exile them, because we are the alternative cleansing source. Exiling them is just a way of imprisoning them while pretending that we let them keep their freedom. We'll run into the enforcement problem long before we figure out an artificial grief cleanser that isn't dependent on us for production.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
I apologize for not realizing this quickly enough to fold into my previous response.
And yet your vote includes conditional statements based on what Hitomi means.
Now your vote does include asking Hitomi, so its not completely illogical.
But you include it in a very sarcastic attempt to concilate with other voters -- in its current version. And previous versions had Sabrina begging to be excused for having to ask, as if Hitomi had explained enough already.
If you feel you can do away with asking Hitomi what she means, how do you plan on determining which conditional for Sabrina to use? If Hitomi's explanation was clear enough to you, why have conditions at all?
However your statement is an attack on the very concept of asking Hitomi what she means. As if Hitomi had explained well enough that we should know what she means.
And yet your vote includes conditional statements based on what Hitomi means.
Now your vote does include asking Hitomi, so its not completely illogical.
But you include it in a very sarcastic attempt to concilate with other voters -- in its current version. And previous versions had Sabrina begging to be excused for having to ask, as if Hitomi had explained enough already.
If you feel you can do away with asking Hitomi what she means, how do you plan on determining which conditional for Sabrina to use? If Hitomi's explanation was clear enough to you, why have conditions at all?
- Location
- Illinois
Ah... Key logical fallacy. You're assuming that what I wrote covers cases where the slapped party does something between being told they had no right to X and them asking what the slapper meant. Which, uh, it doesn't, because "slap somebody, they inform you that they need to ask you a question that's honestly in good faith despite how strange it may sound, they ask you what you meant" is... not the same thing.
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
You say Logical Fallacy, but do you mean misconception?
From what I can gather, it appears I was wrong in assuming that you believe Hitomi doesn't need further explaining, not a failure in Logic on my part.
Erronious info in produces Erronious conclusion without need for erronious process.
Also it appears you misunderstood my position as well.
Would Sereg's vote reworded this way inform Hitomi of the reason for asking the question?
[]to Hitomi: "I believe we're misunderstanding each other. I'm happy to address all your concerns once I understand them. Please explain what you mean by 'Pronounce Judgement. If you want, I am even willing to show you what happened, though you might not want to see it."
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Higure
Witch of Faith
- Location
- The Golden Land
I agree with a lot of this, but can't say I like the idea of creating artificial scarcity: While inventing a suitable post-scarcity model of governance might he difficult, eliminating scarcity eliminates a major motive for crime and conflict....furthermore, the inevitable decline in average productivity becomes less important when drawing from an effectively infinite pool of resources, so it's pretty much fine to let people spend most of their time and energy to leisure.
Admittedly, it'll be hard to predict development from that point, but it's arguably the first step in creating a utopian society.
Actually, I believe this can be fairly readily addressed before any form of environment for exiles to be sent to could be readily established.
We know that Familiars can self-perpetuate after the demise of their creator, so all we need to do is find a way to achieve and perfect Familiar creation, then release them as passive, independent cleansers.
Absolute worst case scenario, we find a way to create a self-sustaining populace of familiar-derived Witches as a prey species. We'd have to find a way to allow then to develop without consuming Souls, though...
There are lots of options for creating large-scale Sabrina-independent cleansing, if we try hard enough.
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Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
I don't see where scarcity itself will go away. Scarcity of cleansings yes, but wouldn't scarcity of mundane products remain the same?
I haven't seen any Meguca make permanent conjurations of any item they can conceive yet.
I haven't seen any Meguca make permanent conjurations of any item they can conceive yet.
Muramasa
Best Girl
You could probably just clone existing items if you had enough magic. Healing magic itself clearly isn't just temporary.