Um, one thing we have to be careful of here is accidentally witchbombing Sayaka. Will showing Sayaka what happened that night witchbomb her?
 
We could also attack the question itself:

[] Of course we didn't. Nobody has that right.
-[] What we had, once Homura won the fight, was a choice. We could let her finish dying, or we could reattach her head and cover over her arm and do something else with her.
-[] Hitomi, I think that you might not understand how Magical Girls work. To quote Thomas Malthus, "Famine seems to be the last, the most dreadful resource of nature.". Most Magical Girls starve to death within a month, and that's if they aren't outright killed by other Magical Girls in fights over Grief Seeds.
-[] There is no court system. There are no police. There is no higher power. There is no justice. There's just us.
 
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Um, one thing we have to be careful of here is accidentally witchbombing Sayaka. Will showing Sayaka what happened that night witchbomb her?

Higure's vote contains "omit witchbomb", I think.
Still think it's overcomplicated solution which might not solve the issue, or try to solve the wrong issue, because Oriko Sabrina knows best what everyone needs and is above such base things as "communication" or "ask what exactly is the problem, then act".

We could also attack the question itself:

Why is everyone so defensive and is talking about "attack question" and the like? They are not enemies. We need to understand their reservations and try to solve them together, not verbally bludgeon everyone into submission.
 
[Q] "Nothing is true, everything is permitted."

[Q] "Might makes Right."

[Q] "I don't have the right? Bitch, please. Welcome to Pax Sabrina."
 
We could also attack the question itself:

[] Of course we didn't. Nobody has that right.
-[] What we had, once Homura won the fight, was a choice. We could let her finish dying, or we could reattach her head and cover over her arm and do something else with her.
-[] Hitomi, I think that you might not understand how Magical Girls work. To quote Thomas Malthus, "Famine seems to be the last, the most dreadful resource of nature.". Most Magical Girls starve to death within a month, and that's if they aren't outright killed by other Magical Girls in fights over Grief Seeds.
-[] There is no court system. There are no police. There is no higher power. There is no justice. There's just us.
We don't even understand which question it is. We can't attack something we can't even identify.
 
We don't even understand which question it is. We can't attack something we can't even identify.

This. So much this.
I literally have no idea what people are thinking when they are trying to argue, when nobody knows against what we are arguing.
It's like the very idea of somebody not praising God-Empress Sabrina offends voters or something.

At this rate are going to be as bad as Oriko on arrogance scale. If we aren't already.
This quest seems to need "hubris" tag.
 
Hmmm, I'll actually vote for once.

[X] Sereg

This way we get clarification, and we can just use all the excellent votecrafting everyone worked on to help on our next response.
 
Let's not give them fucking VR goggles because showing them our memories as an explanation tactic is a time-waster, manipulative, definitely will traumatize them more than is necessary, and doesn't even address their complaints.
90% of what we do could be called a "waste of time." If we were trying for maximum efficiency, we could easily bruteforce issues by screwing with their minds or get their compliance through rampant, merciless deception.

Giving someone the actual facts, rather than watering shit down or giving incomplete info out of convenience (rather than neccesity) is manipulative now? A degree of manipulation is unavoidable in social interaction, but this is far less so than shit we've done in the past.

Our refusal to be brutally honest got Sayaka a contract and has left Hitomi with no perspective of how the world of Magi actually works. This option is a hell of a lot less traumatic than what Sayaka will go through later (especially if she doesn't get proper forewarning) and what Hitomi might go through if she pisses off the wrong meguca out of ignorance.

It DOES answer many of their complaints and questions: It shows Sayaka exactly what we did to Oriko, shows Hitomi the context of our "judgement" (thus clearing up any confusion about that), and gives them both a clear picture of why traditional systems of law are basically useless in Magi-related situations.

As for "appealing to their trust in us:" That only goes so far, and claims built entirely upon trust aren't likely to be enough for people when those claims are even faintly fantastical.

It is quite literally shoving our point of view down their throats. It's one big fancy overblown excuse when we could just explain things and appeal to their trust in us, which is more organic, healthy, and conductive to reconciliation and the changing of minds.
Bullshit. People argue verbally and discuss because we often can't directly share our experiences and perspectives. This massively reduces the inaccuracy and confusion that is rampant in verbal communication. As for being "organic" and "healthy," the former is not inherently a positive thing, and the latter is only (arguably) valid if a clumsy verbal explanation is enough to make these two cautious enough to not get themselves killed.

They can't even verify that it's really our memories and not something more self-serving, and our choice to use it as opposed to talking it out sets a really bad example.
The former is true with either option, except words are a lot easier to rapidly fabricate than memories. I also have NO clue how choosing to provide detailed and clear information is a bad example, unless you're referencing your earlier claims that this method is inherently wrong for being abnormal.
 
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We don't even understand which question it is. We can't attack something we can't even identify.
That's true if you're trying to make an argument further down the line, but if you move up to underlying assumptions you can ignore the details. In this case:
  • If she would argue that "the right to pronouce judgement" is a thing, then the argument that there is no justice doesn't care who she thinks it belongs to and can proceed without clarification.
  • If she would argue that "the right to pronounce judgement" isn't a thing, then we're agreeing with her and can proceed without clarification.
 
The former is true with either option, except words are a lot easier to rapidly fabricate than memories. I also have NO clue how choosing to provide detailed and clear information is a bad example, unless you're referncing your earlier claims that this method is inherently wrong for being abnormal.

We can't argue until we know what exactly is the point of contention. We'll just be talking, or overall arguing if your vote wins, past each other. Vital part of communication is trying to understand position of your friend, not try to hammer your point of view into them without even attempting to grok them.
 
That's true if you're trying to make an argument further down the line, but if you move up to underlying assumptions you can ignore the details. In this case:
  • If she would argue that "the right to pronouce judgement" is a thing, then the argument that there is no justice doesn't care who she thinks it belongs to and can proceed without clarification.
  • If she would argue that "the right to pronounce judgement" isn't a thing, then we're agreeing with her and can proceed without clarification.
As you say yourself, we don't know if she considers the right to be thing or not. We also don't know what she considers "pronouncing judgement" to be in the first place. We don't know if she considers inaction to be pronouncing judgement, or possibly morally required. We don't know if she's saying we were wrong to avoid telling them, to chase Oriko in the first place, to refuse to ignore Oriko, to fail to bring her on our hunt of Oriko, to fail to execute Oriko, to fail to ask her for an appropriate punishment for us to administer, for us to break arms willy nilly etc. It's a lot less clear than you are claiming. For all we know, she's claiming that right for herself, in which case both your approaches fail.

EDIT:^This
 
We can't argue until we know what exactly is the point of contention. We'll just be talking, or overall arguing if your vote wins, past each other. Vital part of communication is trying to understand position of your friend, not try to hammer your point of view into them without even attempting to grok them.
Look, I'm not trying to end the whole talk with this. The way I see it, though, putting this to rest requires the following:

1. Sharing of information. They need to know exactly what we did, what Oriko did, and the circumstances that drove those actions. If they don't know the facts, any "understanding" we come to can collapse if something we missed telling them comes to light.

I want to choose the VR approach because it conveys all the details, including a clear showing of what conflict between Magi is like. That said, showing them on a screen or-if people hate the thought of using more than words for some reason-providing an extremely thorough and brutally clear verbal telling of the story would be viable options as well, as would direct memory sharing through more esoteric magic (which I doubt many people would be up for).

It is possible complete knowledge of events will alleviate many of their concerns, and simplify the latter two steps.

2. Determine what exactly they take issue with/want to know.

Giving them the info first means we don't have deal with issues based in misunderstandings, rather than actual disagreements.

You seen to want to do this without providing more complete info first. I disagree with that, but agree that it should come before the final step.

3. Answer their protests or queries in such a way as to avert any major fallout.

This is what the early votes tried to do first. It's basically taking potshots in the dark, and isn't the right move.
 
Look, I'm not trying to end the whole talk with this. The way I see it, though, putting this to rest requires the following:

1. Sharing of information. They need to know exactly what we did, what Oriko did, and the circumstances that drove those actions. If they don't know the facts, any "understanding" we come to can collapse if something we missed telling them comes to light.

I want to choose the VR approach because it conveys all the details, including a clear showing of what conflict between Magi is like. That said, showing them on a screen or-if people hate the thought of using more than words for some reason-providing an extremely thorough and brutally clear verbal telling of the story would be viable options as well, as would direct memory sharing through more esoteric magic (which I doubt many people would be up for).

It is possible complete knowledge of events will alleviate many of their concerns, and simplify the latter two steps.

2. Determine what exactly they take issue with/want to know.

Giving them the info first means we don't have deal with issues based in misunderstandings, rather than actual disagreements.

You seen to want to do this without providing more complete info first. I disagree with that, but agree that it should come before the final step.

3. Answer their protests or queries in such a way as to avert any major fallout.

This is what the early votes tried to do first. It's basically taking potshots in the dark, and isn't the right move.
I agree with your general approach. I just think we need to give them more preparation and the opportunity to decide that they would rather talk instead of subject themselves to traumatic imagery. Hitomi especially.
 
Look, I'm not trying to end the whole talk with this. The way I see it, though, putting this to rest requires the following:

1. Sharing of information. They need to know exactly what we did, what Oriko did, and the circumstances that drove those actions. If they don't know the facts, any "understanding" we come to can collapse if something we missed telling them comes to light.

I want to choose the VR approach because it conveys all the details, including a clear showing of what conflict between Magi is like. That said, showing them on a screen or-if people hate the thought of using more than words for some reason-providing an extremely thorough and brutally clear verbal telling of the story would be viable options as well, as would direct memory sharing through more esoteric magic (which I doubt many people would be up for).

It is possible complete knowledge of events will alleviate many of their concerns, and simplify the latter two steps.

2. Determine what exactly they take issue with/want to know.

Giving them the info first means we don't have deal with issues based in misunderstandings, rather than actual disagreements.

You seen to want to do this without providing more complete info first. I disagree with that, but agree that it should come before the final step.

3. Answer their protests or queries in such a way as to avert any major fallout.

This is what the early votes tried to do first. It's basically taking potshots in the dark, and isn't the right move.

I do understand where you are coming from - that they are jumping to conclusions without knowing full context and giving it to them is bound to make some progress - but so are we.
Maybe we should practice what we preach and learn context before jumping to conclusions about what H&S want and need?

We can always use your vote later, if it still applies. If it does not apply anymore - it's good we didn't use it blindly.
And full VR footage of gory teenage superhumans killing and maiming each other with warhammers, claws and machine guns is something not every adult would stomach. Best not to use such things lightly, IMO.
 
90% of what we do could be called a "waste of time." If we were trying for maximum efficiency, we could easily bruteforce issues by screwing with their minds or get their compliance through rampant, merciless deception.

Giving someone the actual facts, rather than watering shit down or giving incomplete info out of convenience (rather than neccesity) is manipulative now? A degree of manipulation is unavoidable in social interaction, but this is far less so than shit we've done in the past.

Our refusal to be brutally honest got Sayaka a contract and has left Hitomi with no perspective of how the world of Magi actually works. This option is a hell of a lot less traumatic than what Sayaka will go through later (especially if she doesn't get proper forewarning) and what Hitomi might go through if she pisses off the wrong meguca out of ignorance.

It DOES answer many of their complaints and questions: It shows Sayaka exactly what we did to Oriko, shows Hitomi the context of our "judgement" (thus clearing up any confusion about that), and gives them both a clear picture of why traditional systems of law are basically useless in Magi-related situations.

As for "appealing to their trust in us:" That only goes so far, and claims built entirely upon trust aren't likely to be enough for people when those claims are even faintly fantastical.

Bullshit. People argue verbally and discuss because we often can't directly share our experiences and perspectives. This massively reduces the inaccuracy and confusion that is rampant in verbal communication. As for being "organic" and "healthy," the former is not inherently a positive thing, and the latter is only (arguably) valid if a clumsy verbal explanation is enough to make these two cautious enough to not get themselves killed.

The former is true with either option, except words are a lot easier to rapidly fabricate than memories. I also have NO clue how choosing to provide detailed and clear information is a bad example, unless you're referncing your earlier claims that this method is inherently wrong for being abnormal.

Look, I'm sorry, but Hitomi slapped us over the mere verbal admittance of blowing someone's arm off, and you want to show her graphic audiovisuals of Homura making Oriko into swiss cheese? No.
 
It's like the very idea of somebody not praising God-Empress Sabrina offends voters or something.

At this rate are going to be as bad as Oriko on arrogance scale. If we aren't already.
This quest seems to need "hubris" tag.
While I won't say we aren't overconfident or proud, it wasn't them disagreeing with us or being angry at us that angered (at least this aspect of) Sabrina. It was rather more complex than that.
While I'm much less angry at Hitomi and Sayaka than I was right after the update, I will say that I don't recall being pissed at their disagreement or disapproval. If they want to be angry, be hurt, or lower their opinion of us, that's fine. If thet want to say they think we went to far (or not far enough), that's fine. We have kept secrets, and our handling of the Oriko situation is morally questionable. That said, that isn't what happened

Sayaka didn't just shout at us or shown her ire in a civil way. Instead she got physical, destroyed Mami's table, and is currently on the brink of physically attacking us. Despite that, I was more irritated and disappointed than angry: Sayaka's emotions are getting the better of her, as usual. I'd hoped she would keep her temper under control, but tables can be fixed or replaced, and injuries healed.

Hitomi was the one who pissed me off. She didn't ask what gave us the right to pass judgement. She strode over and declared we had no right to do so, then tried to strike us. She, who has never even been near a battlefield, lived as a Magus, or met Oriko judged Sabrina (and, as our allies in the endeavor, Mami and Homura), from a position of extreme ignorance.

Perhaps we're a bit arrogant, but the hubris Hitomu demonstrated just now dwarfs even Oriko's: After all, Oriko did what she did while in possession of a conventionally impossible wealth of knowledge. Sabrina, likewise, possesses comparable information through metaknowledge. Both of us tend to loom down on others because of our resources. That said, Hitomi is making judgements while fully aware she doesn't have nearly all the facts of the situation.[/quote]That said? I was too harsh on them.

Sayaka's a teenager, and expecting adult discipline is rather too much. She'll need to cultivate it to survive, but she's still green and deserves some leeway. We need to make sure she learns to temper herself, though, or it will bite her in the future.

Hitomi is also a teen, and we've actively sheltered her from this: The fact she demonstrated this degree of ego is understandable, considering she has no clue about how much we know, the amount of thought we put into things, or the real nature of a Magus's life. If we want her to avoid such failures of judgement in the future, we need to let her know what she's dealing with.

So, yeah. There are problems with everyone here except Mami (probably her too, really). What we need to focus on is how to address those. Even our overconfidence, I guess.
 
Hitomi was the one who pissed me off. She didn't ask what gave us the right to pass judgement. She strode over and declared we had no right to do so, then tried to strike us. She, who has never even been near a battlefield, lived as a Magus, or met Oriko judged Sabrina (and, as our allies in the endeavor, Mami and Homura), from a position of extreme ignorance.

Well, it might be some sort of core principle or something to her, like talking shit about Madoka is to Homura. Or trying to attack Sabrina is to Mami.
That's exactly why we need to ask first, IMO: we don't know just what exactly is going on and we don't want to be an elephant in china shop...even if it's painfully typical Sabrina's MO.
Everybody has hangups, and fighting back blindly instead of figuring out those hangups first is hypocritical, arrogant, prone to backfiring and often immature.
 
Look, I'm sorry, but Hitomi slapped us over the mere verbal admittance of blowing someone's arm off, and you want to show her graphic audiovisuals of Homura making Oriko into swiss cheese? No.
Hitomi can be as pissed or disgusted as she wants. If she still thinks she's in the right after she knows the full situation, that's up to her. If she wants to understand more, she can ask, and I'll be happy to answer. If not, she can live with it: Hitomi is not going to die from being hurt, angry, or indignant.

She could very well die from ignorance, however, and she just proved how deeply clueless she is about world of Magi she's gotten involved in. A graphic depiction of a Magus's reality would be a huge step towards remedying said ignorance and deterring recklessness.
 
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I'm going to stick with my vote. I'm not sure if it's the best possible move, but I think it's a viable one. I also have players voting for me by name, so it would feel improper to switch to something drastically different.

I do think that simply asking Hitomi to explain, without a massive array of arguments, is a solid move as well, though. Sereg's as well, being mostly a more detailed version of asking HItomi to explain.

Well, it might be some sort of core principle or something to her, like talking shit about Madoka is to Homura. Or trying to attack Sabrina is to Mami.
That's exactly why we need to ask first, IMO: we don't know just what exactly is going on and we don't want to be an elephant in china shop...even if it's painfully typical Sabrina's MO.
Everybody has hangups, and fighting back blindly instead of figuring out those hangups first is hypocritical, arrogant, prone to backfiring and often immature.
I completely agree. Just explaining why she pissed me off before: Both for the sake of clarity among the players and for Sabrina's own ability to recognize the sources of whatever anger she might feel.
 
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I'm going to stick with my vote. I'm not sure if it's the best possible move, but I think it's a viable one. I also have players voting for me by name, so it would feel improper to switch to something drastically different.

I do think that simply asking Hitomi to explain, without a massive array of arguments, is a solid move as well, though.


I completely agree. Just explaining why she pissed me off before: Both for the sake of clarity among the players and for Sabrina's own ability to recognize the sources of whatever anger she might feel.

Well, yes, your vote is valid. And Sayaka proobably needs such VR to know what she's gotten into. Hitomi doesn't though. Maybe she has some phobia of blood or some childhood trauma about "justice". Or something equally dramatic.
Not even thinking about why normally the most level-headed person in group is acting so rashly seems quite callous and self-centered on Sabrina's part. Understandable, sure, but with great power should, ideally, come great responsibility. Which means higher standards, which means "understandable" doesn't cut it.
 
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