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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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popping in to drop off an idea (one i suggested a long time ago, but wasn't very clear about explaining):

  • drawing grief from a grief seed or soul gem takes time - the process isn't instant.
  • this means that it is possible to create more grief using spells than Sabrina is able to withdraw from the soul gem.
  • as a result, past a certain point of grief expenditure, Sabrina is unable to cleanse you - at least, not faster than you accumulate grief per second.
  • therefore, spells which cost lots of magic/spawn too much grief can be deadly, despite Sabrina's grief cleansing abilities.
what this means is that enormously costly attacks (attacks which would likely damage Walpurgisnacht or feathers) are inaccessible due to their grief cost, despite Sabrina's ability to cleanse the MG mid attack - the spells are so costly that you accumulate grief faster than it is drawn out.

a way to get around this problem is to have multiple sources of grief cleansing active at once - sources other than Sabrina that cleanse you at the same time as she does.

this however, has a few drawbacks:
  • the only other method of grief cleansing available is via grief seeds.
  • there is not much space inside normal grief seeds.
  • it is therefore possible that too much grief expenditure could hatch a witch.
  • large enough spells are likely to produce enough grief to spawn a witch from the used grief seeds mid battle.
  • it would therefore be too risky for these to be feasible.
this leaves a final option; to surround the soul gem with empty grief seeds. this has a number of significant benefits:
  • these seeds have a lot of room to spare inside them, meaning that high cost spells will have all of their waste grief cleansed safely.
  • due to the multiple cleansing sources (several seeds touching the gem), it is likely that they could cleanse grief many times faster than Sabrina.
  • this means that high expenditures of grief per second are not risky at all.
  • once each seed has gained grief, Sabrina can cleanse them all at the same time; rather than one source of grief cleansing (soul gem - x grief cleansed per second), it allows multiple sources of grief cleansing (soul gem and 4 empty seeds - 5x grief cleansed per second)
here's a diagram:

imagine 10g being the amount of grief Sabrina can cleanse per second. if a soul-gem were to accumulate 40g per second, this is what would happen.
Soul Gem: O
Grief Seed: O
Grief transfer: +Xg>

+40g> O -10g>
0/100

+40g> O -10g>
30/100

+40g> O -10g>
60/100

+40g> O -10g>
100/100

O -> O

however, if you surround the gem in 4 or more empty seeds, it is capable of absorbing more grief.
Soul Gem: O
Empty Grief Seed: O
Grief Seed: O
Grief transfer: +Xg>

+40g> O -40g> OOOO -40g>
0/100

+40g> O -40g> OOOO -40g>
0/100

+40g> O -40g> OOOO -40g>
0/100

+40g> O -40g> OOOO -40g>
0/100

O

it's basically an easy way of drawing out grief mid battle into easily cleansed portions, allowing you to put more power into spells without risk of witching out, even if you produce more grief than Sabrina can withdraw. further, since the grief cleansing (from the seeds) is automatic, Sabrina doesn't even need to focus on the cleansing half the time...

tl;dr:
if you surround a MG's soul with empty grief seeds, they are able to simultaneously cleanse them of grief, allowing MG's to cast more expensive spells - spells that even Sabrina can't cleanse grief from fast enough to allow - and increase the safety net in case they are injured and need to spend emergency grief.

Its far better to cleanse grief from 5 sources rather than one, especially if the other four are safety nets for the first.
 
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matthew badger said:
popping in to drop off an idea (one i suggested a long time ago, but wasn't very clear about explaining):
  • drawing grief from a grief seed or soul gem takes time - the process isn't instant.
  • this means that it is possible to create more grief using spells than Sabrina is able to withdraw from the soul gem.
  • as a result, past a certain point of grief expenditure, Sabrina is unable to cleanse you - at least, not faster than you accumulate grief per second.
  • therefore, spells which cost lots of magic/spawn too much grief can be deadly, despite Sabrina's grief cleansing abilities.
what this means is that enormously costly attacks (attacks which would likely damage Walpurgisnacht or feathers) are inaccessible due to their grief cost, despite Sabrina's ability to cleanse the MG mid attack - the spells are so costly that you accumulate grief faster than it is drawn out.

a way to get around this problem is to have multiple sources of grief cleansing active at once - sources other than Sabrina that cleanse you at the same time as she does.

this however, has a few drawbacks:
  • the only other method of grief cleansing available is via grief seeds.
  • there is not much space inside normal grief seeds.
  • it is therefore possible that too much grief expenditure could hatch a witch.
  • large enough spells are likely to produce enough grief to spawn a witch from the used grief seeds mid battle.
  • it would therefore be too risky for these to be feasible.
this leaves a final option; to surround the soul gem with empty grief seeds. this has a number of significant benefits:
  • these seeds have a lot of room to spare inside them, meaning that high cost spells will have all of their waste grief cleansed safely.
  • due to the multiple cleansing sources (several seeds touching the gem), it is likely that they could cleanse grief many times faster than Sabrina.
  • this means that high expenditures of grief per second are not risky at all.
  • once each seed has gained grief, Sabrina can cleanse them all at the same time; rather than one source of grief cleansing (soul gem - x grief cleansed per second), it allows multiple sources of grief cleansing (soul gem and 4 empty seeds - 5x grief cleansed per second)
here's a diagram.

imagine 10g being the amount of grief Sabrina can cleanse per second. if a soul-gem were to accumulate 40g per second, this is what would happen:
Soul Gem: O
Grief Seed: O
Grief transfer: +Xg>

+40g> O -10g>
0/100

+40g> O -10g>
30/100

+40g> O -10g>
60/100

+40g> O -10g>
100/100

O -> O

however, if you surround the gem in 4 or more empty seeds, it is capable of absorbing more grief.
Soul Gem: O
Empty Grief Seed: O
Grief Seed: O
Grief transfer: +Xg>

+40g> O -40g> OOOO -40g>
0/100

+40g> O -40g> OOOO -40g>
0/100

+40g> O -40g> OOOO -40g>
0/100

+40g> O -40g> OOOO -40g>
0/100

O -> O

it's basically an easy way of drawing out grief mid battle into easily cleansed portions, allowing you to put more power into spells without risk of witching out, even if you produce more grief than Sabrina can withdraw.

tl;dr:
if you surround a MG's soul with empty grief seeds, they are able to simultaneously cleanse them of grief, allowing MG's to cast more expensive spells - spells that even Sabrina can't cleanse grief fast enough to allow - and increase the safety net in case they are injured and need to spend emergency grief.

Its far better to cleanse grief from 5 sources rather than one, especially if the other four are safety nets for the first.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's basically artificially increasing their 'capacity' for grief, then?
If Sabrina takes time to withdraw grief, it's obviously not instantaneous - I wonder why that is? If her wish was to control all grief she could've controlled any grief that has and will exist (Hmmm!). I'm just thinking out loud, while we could try to measure the volume of grief she takes out per second or something, I think it takes time for the grief to come out because that's how we expect it to act in fiction (including QMs, on a tangent here but sometimes quest-goers need to remind themselves QMs aren't reality simulators, despite all the glorious worldbuilding that they do.)
 
Prince Eggplant said:
It's basically artificially increasing their 'capacity' for grief, then?
If Sabrina takes time to withdraw grief, it's obviously not instantaneous - I wonder why that is? If her wish was to control all grief she could've controlled any grief that has and will exist (Hmmm!). I'm just thinking out loud, while we could try to measure the volume of grief she takes out per second or something, I think it takes time for the grief to come out because that's how we expect it to act in fiction (including QMs, on a tangent here but sometimes quest-goers need to remind themselves QMs aren't reality simulators, despite all the glorious worldbuilding that they do.)
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Click to shrink...

exactly!

even if the limit on grief cleansing is due to subconscious belief, multiple sources of grief cleansing will still get around the issue; Sabrina has demonstrated the ability to cleanse from multiple sources at once in the past - therefore, splitting the grief between empty seeds and then draining from the seeds/gem all at once will allow for faster cleansing.

right now, the only limit on MG spell use is grief capacity - artificial increases are all that's needed in order to achieve greater power levels. :D
 
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Re-make the Magic Boosting Gem and see if we can cleanse a Grief Seed faster while holding it.

... Give Mami the Gem and see what she can do with it. Maybe a full sized Mami clone.
 
Onmur said:
Re-make the Magic Boosting Gem and see if we can cleanse a Grief Seed faster while holding it.

... Give Mami the Gem and see what she can do with it. Maybe a full sized Mami clone.
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Click to shrink...

why not all of these things? magic boosting, empty soul-gems and mami clones?

remember, any increase in grief capacity translates into bigger spells. just because one thing works, doesn't mean we shouldn't go overboard and add other methods of grief cleansing.

right now, what's the largest tiro-finale mami can make? van sized? we can go bigger...

what if we use the boosting gem? bus sized at that point?

what about the grief seed idea? added to the magic boosting gem, it would likely be even bigger...

apartment sized??!
 
Aranfan said:
Actually, there is at least one reason. The concrete book worked, as did the card for the magical girl's number. We can use grief powers to acquire information we don't have. You can quibble on how strongly to weigh that reason, but you can't truthfully deny that it exists.
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Both those cases are also implied to work similar to Scanners; we have difficulty with scanning souls/magic, and EVERYONE has difficulty comprehending Sabrina magically.

So, I sincerely doubt it's gonna work.
 
If you were to consider our Soul Range as 'our domain' in some fashion, then we can't get info we don't already possess with our Grief. :V
 
matthew badger said:
what this means is that enormously costly attacks (attacks which would likely damage Walpurgisnacht or feathers) are inaccessible due to their grief cost, despite Sabrina's ability to cleanse the MG mid attack - the spells are so costly that you accumulate grief faster than it is drawn out.

a way to get around this problem is to have multiple sources of grief cleansing active at once - sources other than Sabrina that cleanse you at the same time as she does.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Or we can team up with Homura, and have an arbitrarily large amount of time to cleanse said soul gem. I've mentioned that Homura, Sabrina, and Mami are basically the ultimate power trio for this exact reason: Homura and Sabrina are basically an infinite power combo by themselves, allowing Mami to freely spam millions, even billions of rapid-fire Tiro Fimales in the space between seconds.
 
TheEyes said:
Or we can team up with Homura, and have an arbitrarily large amount of time to cleanse said soul gem. I've mentioned that Homura, Sabrina, and Mami are basically the ultimate power trio for this exact reason: Homura and Sabrina are basically an infinite power combo by themselves, allowing Mami to freely spam millions, even billions of rapid-fire Tiro Fimales in the space between seconds.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

and what happens when we can't rely on time-stop bullshit? what do we do then? in that case, we would have to rely on Mg powers - something that my plan is able to increase.

honesty, i agree with what you're saying; we have ludicrous amounts of firepower already, why do we need more?

the fact that we are powerful doesn't mean that we should stop pushing the boundaries of that power, though. at some point, we will fight an enemy that we can't cheese via time-stop, or homura will be taken by surprise, or any number of problems could occur.

my point is, why not increase the power of our MG allies when all it requires is a few moments of testing?

literally all we have to do is surround a soul-gem with empty grief seeds and then steadily use more powerful magic attacks, until we reach a limit on how much grief we can cleanse.

considering how quickly we can already cleanse soul gems, my plan will likely elevate our spells massively to the point that mami could wreck cities by herself. i consider that worth investigating.

(i don't want to fight something equal or more powerful than Walpurgisnacht, and then find that we can't cleanse fast enough to keep up with our damage output.)

i don't think you are considering just how powerful this could make us...
 
matthew badger said:
and what happens when we can't rely on time-stop bullshit? what do we do then? in that case, we would have to rely on Mg powers - something that my plan is able to increase.

honesty, i agree with what you're saying; we have ludicrous amounts of firepower already, why do we need more?

the fact that we are powerful doesn't mean that we should stop pushing the boundaries of that power, though. at some point, we will fight an enemy that we can't cheese via time-stop, or homura will be taken by surprise, or any number of problems could occur.

my point is, why not increase the power of our MG allies when all it requires is a few moments of testing?

literally all we have to do is surround a soul-gem with empty grief seeds and then steadily use more powerful magic attacks, until we reach a limit on how much grief we can cleanse.

considering how quickly we can already cleanse soul gems, my plan will likely elevate our spells massively to the point that mami could wreck cities by herself. i consider that worth investigating.

(i don't want to fight something equal or more powerful than Walpurgisnacht, and then find that we can't cleanse fast enough to keep up with our damage output.)

i don't think you are considering just how powerful this could make us...
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You're ignoring the fact we don't have super powerful attacks that can just be fed more 'magic' to be stronger.

The only Potential we know that can use up all her magic in one attack is Madoka, and I'm not sure whether that's voluntary or just her basic attack.
 
Onmur said:
You're ignoring the fact we don't have super powerful attacks that can just be fed more 'magic' to be stronger.

The only Potential we know that can use up all her magic in one attack is Madoka, and I'm not sure whether that's voluntary or just her basic attack.
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what are you talking about?

mami has a scale-able weapon - the tiro finale, kyouko has those massive spears and that suicidal explosive attack, homura could use the extra capacity to have longer time-stop without relying on us for cleanses. heck, we don't technically even need a bigger attack, just spam normal attacks. how could having this sort of capacity not appeal??

I've seen mami use different sizes of tiro finale before and in different shapes; give her a bunch more magic to play around with and we could be surprised by what she comes up with.

i honestly don't know what the problem with effectively infinite reserves for our allies is...

scaling up attacks with higher mana cost is quite common in pmmm. honestly, it's worth testing this idea just to find out how big we could make our spells. with 5 sources of grief drainage per person, it would be amazing to see what attacks our allies could employ - they would have no fear of witching out and could throw around their full reserves on a whim. frankly, the extra safety-net of constant four way drainage would be even better than time-stop cheese.

it's not like our time-stop spam allows them to fill attacks with +90% of their mana and still keep them safe from witching out.

edit:
(i'm also talking about the fact that Sabrina won't have to be hyper-focused on everyone in order to allow them to use their full power; once we start bringing in other girls, it will be difficult to maintain cleansing on the whole party - wouldn't it be better to just give them essentially infinite reserves, and the occasional cleanse top up every few minutes/hours?)
 
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When you get down to it, there's very few things short of an Incubator orbital strike or an enemy meguca army that is capable of striking down Sabrina already, which means there's not much need to invest in more martial power. Our needs right now are more subtle, and are all things that "moar powah!" won't be able to do much to fix:

1. We need to SOCIAL Mami and the others into being able to accept the Witchbomb, and in Homura and Madoka's cases the Potentialbomb, both to defuse those in case of an accident or deliberate sabotage of our relationships.
2. We need to work on de-Witching, first on an individual basis and eventually on mass and even retroactive versions.
3. We need to rescue all the Seeds that have been sent to the Incubators, so they can be de-Witched as well. (Note that this one may well require a bit of martial ability, but the real test here is going to be how to keep the Incubators from retaliating; the best way forward will be some sort of negotiated settlement, rather than conquest or extermination, no matter how viscerally satisfying the latter would be).
4. We need to discover and neutralize Feathers' threat to our friends.
:V. We need to confess to Mami

More martial abilities are at best tangential to accomplishing these goals. For that matter, a full manual on how our Grief-hax works is likely to be tangential to all these goals too, since most of these goals require intense social and/or heavy enchantment research rather than grief hax.
 
Idle thought: is grief generation in a Gem at a rate, or in chunks like Moba spells? If in chunks, you are still limited to "100%" or you might witch out while using superpowers.
 
matthew badger said:
what are you talking about?

mami has a scale-able weapon - the tiro finale, kyouko has those massive spears and that suicidal explosive attack, homura could use the extra capacity to have longer time-stop without relying on us for cleanses. heck, we don't technically even need a bigger attack, just spam normal attacks. how could having this sort of capacity not appeal??

I've seen mami use different sizes of tiro finale before and in different shapes; give her a bunch more magic to play around with and we could be surprised by what she comes up with.

i honestly don't know what the problem with effectively infinite reserves for our allies is...

scaling up attacks with higher mana cost is quite common in pmmm. honestly, it's worth testing this idea just to find out how big we could make our spells. with 5 sources of grief drainage per person, it would be amazing to see what attacks our allies could employ - they would have no fear of witching out and could throw around their full reserves on a whim. frankly, the extra safety-net of constant four way drainage would be even better than time-stop cheese.

it's not like our time-stop spam allows them to fill attacks with +90% of their mana and still keep them safe from witching out.

edit:
(i'm also talking about the fact that Sabrina won't have to be hyper-focused on everyone in order to allow them to use their full power; once we start bringing in other girls, it will be difficult to maintain cleansing on the whole party - wouldn't it be better to just give them essentially infinite reserves, and the occasional cleanse top up every few minutes/hours?)
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Please keep in mind that, for Tiro Finale, the limit to the size Mami can make them is that, once it gets too big, she can't wield it properly. It isn't a question of "can she shove enough magic into it"; Mami is already extremely efficient.
Really, the only times where we're likely to have difficulty keeping meguca cleansed is when they are actively Grief-spiraling. If meguca are Grief-spiraling, we are doing something wrong.
 
OK, so, I've had a busy few days and I'm late to the party.

I am not happy about the thread going down in flames again.

So consider this a warning: be civil. I'm going to be asking for threadbans, next time - you know who you are. Dogpiling isn't acceptable.
 
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