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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
Please, just get the Pantlessians on our side, give them infinite magic and let them work out de-Witching.
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Believe it or not, some of us like experimenting and doing science, instead of 24/7 social. Like seriously, we have done social practically non-stop since we made the infobook. That was the last science I recall, and it happened a very long time ago RL, and I think more than a day ago IC. Letting the science people spend one update on experimentation is not going to make Sabrina a total shut in who ignores Mami for SCIENCE!1!1!1!1!oneoneone.
 
Aranfan said:
Believe it or not, some of us like experimenting and doing science, instead of 24/7 social. Like seriously, we have done social practically non-stop since we made the infobook. That was the last science I recall, and it happened a very long time ago RL, and I think more than a day ago IC. Letting the science people spend one update on experimentation is not going to make Sabrina a total shut in who ignores Mami for SCIENCE!1!1!1!1!oneoneone.
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Well, there was the laser. I think that counts as science, regardless of how immediately (and thus briefly) successful it was.
 
Godwinson said:
Ah yes, the "science!" fetishism returns.
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Please don't. That's accusatory, unhelpful, and generally rude. I understand if you, for whatever reason, don't like science votes, but going for a contentless putdown is just not helpful in any way.
Godwinson said:
I'd prefer doing stuff that's more likely to actually prove helpful, rather than just random goofing off with out powers.
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Random goofing off really isn't science, though. If you have a path to take, suggest it; I can't speak for other science voters, but I'm always on the lookout for good ideas. Just complaining, though, isn't helpful - say what you think should be a higher priority, what we should focus on if we do, explain why we can't do it now/soon; not this.
 
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"Hey Homura, if you tell me more about that timeline where you healed Kwyjibo..."

*Walks away*

"Wait! If you tell me, I'll tell you one trick you can use to get rid of him if that ever happens again!"

"... I'm listening."

"OK, so Kyosiko's super focused on his music and his violin skills, right?"

"..."

"So you just take a Stradivarius, throw it, and tell him to go fetch!"

"..."

"... Eh? Eh?"

"..."

"... Uh, well, sorry, just a silly-"

"Shit, that's good."

"... Really?"

*Hugs Sabrina*

"Where were you all my life?"

"..."

*Lets go, nods at Sabrina, and walks away*

"Uh... wait does that mean she's got a Stradivarius... WAIT! She didn't tell me jack about that timeline!"

*Nowhere to be seen, heard, or felt with special senses*

"One day..."
 
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Gadjo said:
You have some justification for the thought, assuming you don't take into account the quest thus far. Literally every problem we've dealt with so far has been in a weight class far below "can mess with the universe at large". Oriko, for example, wouldn't be very scary if we were supposed to just ascend above the planet and start vaporizing incubators with our mind. And she was to be the main villain at first. It's the structure of the quest so far that tells me the scale is smaller than that. In any tabletop game, there is some limitation in what the GM will explore with you outside of what they intended. If we were supposed to be flying around solving the universe attacking incubators with godly power, then Firn's been humoring us for some time without forcing us towards that kind of state with any clear and present danger that we cannot ignore to plan picnics.
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First of all, Oriko was never meant to be the main antagonist. She was meant to be the first antagonist which Firn explicitly stated. Saying otherwise is wrong and false evidence. Secondly, in pretty much every game ever, if you refuse to leave the first plot point, it's your fault you never see hints of the greater scope. Thirdly, dewitching and our problems with the Incubators are absolutely Universal problems that we're struggling with, so to claim that every problem we've had is in a lower weight class is completely wrong. Fourthly, in one of the earliest updates, Homura indicated that she believed that we are the result of Madoka's wish to "fix everything". That was Firn saying, "If you think this has a smaller than Universal scale, stop believing that immediately." It's not Firn's fault you ignored him and refused to advance to later parts of the game.

Gadjo said:
...look Sereg, I know you have Ugo levels of "I am right and nothing else can be even remotely possible" in you, but for fuck's sake it's not as simple as tying your damn shoes.
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You may be right, but we have no evidence for that, so why does checking scare you?

Muramasa said:
We actually have a pretty good lead on how to move forward on dewitching. It has little if anything to do with grief manipulation other than using it to remove grief from a grief seed. Learning magic rather than grief looks much more promising to the purposes of dewitching magical girls.
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I am unaware of the evidence of which you speak. It's possible, but again,where's the evidence? Even if you're right, it just means we need to grief up devices which will help us with our magic.

Onmur said:
I think meguca cooperation is the way to go for de-Witching. Since meguca powers can be as diverse as rheir wishes, there should be a variety of meguca combos that will lead to dewitching, faster than it would take us to research the magic, on our own or with help.

Just need to find the right meguca and witchbomb them in a controlled fashion. Not easy, but I think it's doable.
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Possibly correct, so why aren't we using our grief books to track them down? Why have we still not fetched Soulguca?


AuraTwilight said:
Ugh. Jesus christ, you guys.

When I compared a Grief Manual to a Path of Victory power, it's because both would basically be "Have the GM just tell us the answer to the puzzle" spells. Understanding how our grief powers work is, in large part, one of Sabrina's main obstacles and questlines and is also one of the most fun parts of the quest for a lot of people. A Grief Manual literally shuts all of that down with "Oh, so I can do this and this and not this and I could do this but was doing it wrong. DEWITCHING TIME."

That's not interesting, it's not fun, and I know Firn well enough that he's not going to do it. Sabrina's power-set doesn't give her fucking omniscience.

Hell, it's not even thematic for grief-powers to give oneself the inner, reflective, literal-soulsearching required to make a Grief Manual. Witches base their magic on their disconnect from reality and their inability to own their suffering and master themselves. They're basically schizophrenics who are wrapped up in their own values, delusions, and self-pity that they lose both themselves and their grasp on the real world.

And Sabrina isn't immune. When she makes shit, she zones out. When she makes a Barrier, it becomes an image of her Safe Space by default. Her powers work the way a witch's would, to a T, if they had self-awareness to their own condition.

So Sabrina can get around their limitations through ingenuity and clever experimentation (y'know, like Mami did for her own power set), but she's not able to cast "Grief Spell: Download Manual" because no Magical Girl gets to do that.

We're already OP enough; atleast let us have the thematic consistency with the established magic system. Divination is why D&D Wizards ruin games anyway.
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How do you know that slowly discovering our powers is meant to be a main challenge? How do you know that Firn doesn't actively want us to solve that problem this way and isn't exasperated that we haven't tried it yet? I know I've experienced that as a GM. Almost every use of our powers "gives us the answer" and Firn explicitly said we need that power. (Also, your problem with diviners in DnD is your problem, not ours).

Godwinson said:
Wait, people are looking to try "griefbooks for guidance" again? Firnagzen already said they're little more than a reskin of a "scanner".
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So, we scan our powers. So what?


Godwinson said:
Not in the way people are arguing they are, with comparisons to RPG character sheets. It'd be more akin to asking an author for their notes on a character in the story they're writing.
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Which is a problem because ...?

Godwinson said:
I'd prefer doing stuff that's more likely to actually prove helpful, rather than just random goofing off with out powers.
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It's literally impossible for it to not be helpful. If it works, it's helpful. If it doesn't, it's still helpful as we have another concrete data point for understanding our powers. Social, by contrast, isn't only often not helpful, but sometimes actively detrimental. If you want something helpful, vote for more science. It's the only thing guaranteed to always be helpful every time in every situation.
 
:facepalm:

Ugh, what a mess. I make one idle comment, figuring I'd just get a bunch of people echoing back, "Huh, neat idea. Sure, let's spend a couple minutes trying that next SCIENCE session," or, at worst, one of the oldsters quoting a post I missed forbidding this very idea. And now the thread's on fire, reasonable discourse is completely dead, everyone's married themselves to stupid ideas and pointless bits of personal sophistry, and I've lost my hat.

Guess this was a bad plan.
 
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Sereg said:
I am unaware of the evidence of which you speak. It's possible, but again,where's the evidence? Even if you're right, it just means we need to grief up devices which will help us with our magic.
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I mentioned the evidence in a later post. Sorry, I'm not up to digging it up again. In either case grief devices have time and again shown issues (i.e. why we can't heal others using grief and why our short cut grief enchantments don't hold up).

Rather I think the better accomplishment here would be using magic to make up for grief's short comings. But until then, I really think the answer is to sit down. Be patient and learn enchantment the hard way. We have a time stopper and an enchantment expert that can help us with that.
 
Sereg said:
How do you know that slowly discovering our powers is meant to be a main challenge? How do you know that Firn doesn't actively want us to solve that problem this way and isn't exasperated that we haven't tried it yet? I know I've experienced that as a GM. Almost every use of our powers "gives us the answer" and Firn explicitly said we need that power. (Also, your problem with diviners in DnD is your problem, not ours).
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Because of things I have no right volunteering on Firn's behalf, but we'll leave it at "I know how he thinks." He's made clear multiple times that he enjoys watching our thinking and experimenting, it's what prompts his Gendo posing.
 
Ask Homu for a timestop magic practice session after the mess that's gonna be the Orikobomb. As a favour she could do for us so we can wind down *Moe eyes*?

Nah, I don't think Sabrina can pull off Moe Eyes.

We still haven't got back to Homura about that 'letting Grief out of our range' thing.
 
AuraTwilight said:
When I compared a Grief Manual to a Path of Victory power, it's because both would basically be "Have the GM just tell us the answer to the puzzle" spells.
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Only if you presume that "how do our powers work" is the puzzle.

Onmur said:
"Wait! If you tell me, I'll tell you one trick you can use to get rid of him if that ever happens again!"
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Cue next time it happens it's in Guitarist!Kwyjibo world and we haven't informed Homura what kind of guitar the trick would work with.
 
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Sereg said:
First of all, Oriko was never meant to be the main antagonist. She was meant to be the first antagonist which Firn explicitly stated. Saying otherwise is wrong and false evidence. Secondly, in pretty much every game ever, if you refuse to leave the first plot point, it's your fault you never see hints of the greater scope. Thirdly, dewitching and our problems with the Incubators are absolutely Universal problems that we're struggling with, so to claim that every problem we've had is in a lower weight class is completely wrong. Fourthly, in one of the earliest updates, Homura indicated that she believed that we are the result of Madoka's wish to "fix everything". That was Firn saying, "If you think this has a smaller than Universal scale, stop believing that immediately." It's not Firn's fault you ignored him and refused to advance to later parts of the game.
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But again, if we could do all this stuff from square one, she'd make a crappy antagonist at any point in the game, simply because regardless of how well she predicted us (which she specifically has trouble with) it wouldn't matter since she could pose no conceivable threat to us.

So far as plot points, you're also overstating how "obvious" it is that we need to go hide and grief science until we become a god.

It's not completely wrong to say we've been dealing with problems in a lower weight class either, because even if we unlock dewitching, a problem that even other planets could use solved, we'd still have no way to mass dewitch. If anything it'd be a regional (moderate gap) Global (loooooong possibly
post-quest gap) then finally universal problem. And the incubators aren't really specifically fucking with us. They're doing their awful thing and we're trying to break their system on a small scale, but we've not once ended up in a situation where it's "fight the incubator trans-galactic mega fleet or die" and killing individual bodies is about as useful as stepping on cockroaches because you can't afford an exterminator.

Also, us being a result of a previous mado-wish only hints at our origin and gives us a goal to work towards beyond our personal ones- that being breaking the system. Also, frankly, I think you're pretending it's way more "obvious" than it really is that Firn wants us to fly around the universe wrecking a space-faring race at silly levels of tech just because we had a high potential and need to fix stuff.

It's not his fault you've been ignoring every single small scale personal problem we've come up against that such a large scale would render trivial and thus waste his time for constructing the scenario either.
 
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