- Location
- ⇙
[x] Redshirt Army
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Germany
[x] Redshirt Army
I was tempted to vote Firnagazen....
I was tempted to vote Firnagazen....
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
[x] Redshirt Army
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Honestly, I've never been sanguine about this idea of having Kyouko train Sayaka. Kyouko's in it for all the wrong reasons, and it seems as likely to negatively impact her relationship with Mami as positively impact it.
And I'm not sure than right between the metabomb and the Orikobomb is the best place to deal with this potential source of drama.
I'd like to propose an alternate option:
[x] Head home and talk on the way.
-[X] You're happy Sayaka thinks a lot better of Homura now.
--[X] Be supportive/apologectic?
--[X] Tell Mami that you've been making some peace overtures to Kyouko, and they seem to be working. You're hoping that with time, the two of them will be able to reconcile.
--[X] As necessary, explain Kyouko's situation: She's had serious emotional issues for a while now, and more recently there's been no Witches to hunt; but she's taking care of Yuma now, which has been forcing her to become a better person.
[X] How does Mami feel about this?
And I'm not sure than right between the metabomb and the Orikobomb is the best place to deal with this potential source of drama.
I'd like to propose an alternate option:
[x] Head home and talk on the way.
-[X] You're happy Sayaka thinks a lot better of Homura now.
--[X] Be supportive/apologectic?
--[X] Tell Mami that you've been making some peace overtures to Kyouko, and they seem to be working. You're hoping that with time, the two of them will be able to reconcile.
--[X] As necessary, explain Kyouko's situation: She's had serious emotional issues for a while now, and more recently there's been no Witches to hunt; but she's taking care of Yuma now, which has been forcing her to become a better person.
[X] How does Mami feel about this?
- Location
- Illinois
We have never used a privacy construct while talking to Kyoko. Saying that "we know some of what happened" to mami, the only other reasonable source of such information will set off a damn flag in QB's head.
@Redshirt Army, if you don't want to use a privacy construct, get that shit out of your vote, man. Your hill is your own but QB is everyone's problem.
@Redshirt Army, if you don't want to use a privacy construct, get that shit out of your vote, man. Your hill is your own but QB is everyone's problem.
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- Location
- South Africa
I am not thrilled about having Kyouko train Sayaka either, but I'm biased and trying to defer to everyone else out of recognition of that.
- Location
- Illinois
Man this cutdown vote just keeps making me more trouble than it's worth.
[x] Head home. On the way there/at home;
-[X] I think that really went well with Homura and Sayaka. Sayaka is really starting to get past her first conclusions about her... It's nice.
-[x] Privacy construct, necklace or bracelet or something.
-[x] Warm/positive tone, this isn't a bomb and it's not going to make Mami unhappy. I'm trying to get Kyoko to be friends with you again. I don't want to replace myself with her or anything, it's just that with things as they are, her name makes you sad, and a sad Mami isn't a happy Mami. Also... She's been in a bad place for a while, now. Mentally, I mean. Spending time taking care of Yuma has done her a lot of good, but... So, It would help her. Although, to be honest, I don't know how being friends with you wouldn't help someone. You're amazing like that.
--[x] Anyway, I know it's possible (tap the side of your head). I just... Don't know exactly how.
--[x] Pause for a bit. Elaborate on things if requested.
--[x] But anyway, I talked to Kyouko, and it took some finagling, but I got her to agree to help Sayaka train her melee skills. If you aren't comfortable with that, then I'm sure we can find somebody else, but... It should help both of them? I don't know for sure that it'll work, but I know Kyoko can get a lot better after meeting Sayaka.
[x] Break to voting if there's reason for it. Else, go home and do some more baking/cooking for the picnic, and have lunch.
[x] Head home. On the way there/at home;
-[X] I think that really went well with Homura and Sayaka. Sayaka is really starting to get past her first conclusions about her... It's nice.
-[x] Privacy construct, necklace or bracelet or something.
-[x] Warm/positive tone, this isn't a bomb and it's not going to make Mami unhappy. I'm trying to get Kyoko to be friends with you again. I don't want to replace myself with her or anything, it's just that with things as they are, her name makes you sad, and a sad Mami isn't a happy Mami. Also... She's been in a bad place for a while, now. Mentally, I mean. Spending time taking care of Yuma has done her a lot of good, but... So, It would help her. Although, to be honest, I don't know how being friends with you wouldn't help someone. You're amazing like that.
--[x] Anyway, I know it's possible (tap the side of your head). I just... Don't know exactly how.
--[x] Pause for a bit. Elaborate on things if requested.
--[x] But anyway, I talked to Kyouko, and it took some finagling, but I got her to agree to help Sayaka train her melee skills. If you aren't comfortable with that, then I'm sure we can find somebody else, but... It should help both of them? I don't know for sure that it'll work, but I know Kyoko can get a lot better after meeting Sayaka.
[x] Break to voting if there's reason for it. Else, go home and do some more baking/cooking for the picnic, and have lunch.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
The thing is, I like Kyouko. I think a lot of the past timelines (and her current relationship with Yuma) demonstrate that she'll jump at the chance for redemption when offered. I just don't think this is the most effective way to bring her back into the fold. She's going into it with entirely the wrong attitude, and that's going to make things worse instead of better.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I also don't like the way we're presenting this to Mami as if it were something that's already decided. That's not really going to help with the "lack of agency" issues.
That reminds me: do we know exactly why Kyoko broke things off with Mami? Was it the whole "I don't want to burden you with my problems, so I'm going to force you to ditch me" deal, or is there something else, because there did seem to be a lot more latent hostility in that whole conversation about training Sayaka than you'd expect if that's her motivation.
[X] The Narrator
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
The "Different Story" manga seemed to imply that was a factor, along with a lot of grief and trauma and anger about what happened to her family. It's possible that the experience of being homeless and all that anger and resentment she's carrying towards the whole world has twisted her memory of events. She also might subconsciously resent that Mami "let her go" (even though Mami did no such thing) and think that if Mami really cared about her she would have gone after her.
The other possibility to consider is that Kyouko likes to talk a lot of shit, whether to rile people up or just because that's how she thinks a "bad girl" has to talk to survive on the streets, but it's all just so much empty air.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Take into account Japan's cliche of "can not spit it out" where Mami is:
"Are we friends?"
And Kyouko's 'Mumi's like a sister to me.'
"No."
And Mami's heartbroken and takes distance from Kyouko.
And teenagers being teenagers, they get mad at each other when they can't understand each other because neither's willing to speak their feelings, so they get mad and madder instead.
"Are we friends?"
And Kyouko's 'Mumi's like a sister to me.'
"No."
And Mami's heartbroken and takes distance from Kyouko.
And teenagers being teenagers, they get mad at each other when they can't understand each other because neither's willing to speak their feelings, so they get mad and madder instead.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[x] Head home and talk on the way.
-[X] You're happy Sayaka thinks better of Homura now. It's nice when people can get along.
--[X] Supportive tone: Tell Mami that you've been making some peace overtures to Kyouko, and you've made some progress. You hope that perhaps in time, the two of them will be able to reconcile.
---[X] You're staying with Mami for good - this isn't a replacement thing or anything. It's just... If you can try and mend a broken friendship, you should, shouldn't you?
--[X] As necessary, explain Kyouko's situation: She's had serious emotional issues for a while now, and more recently there's been no Witches to hunt; but she's taking care of Yuma now, which has been forcing her to become a better person.
[X] How does Mami feel about this? If she seems alright with it:
-[X] As part of that, you've asked Kyouko if she'd be willing to provide melee training for Sayaka. And, well, it took some persuasion, but you talked her into it.
--[X] Would that be alright? You're hoping that Sayaka can overcome some of Kyoko's cynicism, and perhaps Kyouko can temper some of Sayaka's naivete.
-[X] You're happy Sayaka thinks better of Homura now. It's nice when people can get along.
--[X] Supportive tone: Tell Mami that you've been making some peace overtures to Kyouko, and you've made some progress. You hope that perhaps in time, the two of them will be able to reconcile.
---[X] You're staying with Mami for good - this isn't a replacement thing or anything. It's just... If you can try and mend a broken friendship, you should, shouldn't you?
--[X] As necessary, explain Kyouko's situation: She's had serious emotional issues for a while now, and more recently there's been no Witches to hunt; but she's taking care of Yuma now, which has been forcing her to become a better person.
[X] How does Mami feel about this? If she seems alright with it:
-[X] As part of that, you've asked Kyouko if she'd be willing to provide melee training for Sayaka. And, well, it took some persuasion, but you talked her into it.
--[X] Would that be alright? You're hoping that Sayaka can overcome some of Kyoko's cynicism, and perhaps Kyouko can temper some of Sayaka's naivete.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
Well, at least we'd be feeling her out on the subject before telling her that we've been going behind her back.
Still really iffy on this SayakaxKyouko training plan, however. Seems like it could burn bridges instead of mending fences.
Can somebody do a tally? I can't right now 'cause I'm on my phone.
Still really iffy on this SayakaxKyouko training plan, however. Seems like it could burn bridges instead of mending fences.
Can somebody do a tally? I can't right now 'cause I'm on my phone.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
- Location
- Illinois
I still don't get it. Mami has to have long decided that Kyouko is gone for good. Do we believe we're going to be able to reconcile them? If we doubt that we can do it then I guess I can understand not going the whole nine yards to get her hopes up. But... It's like, why are we not telling her that we actually know it's possible? Your argument is that creating a privacy device in order to convey that information isn't worth it.
But the way you're going about this, Redshirt, it leaves a lot of room for self-doubt on the issue. It depends on whether she has more faith in our ability to do the impossible or more belief that Kyouko is lost to her as to whether she even takes away from your vote a belief that this is going to work -- that this can work.
But if we tell her about our metaknowledge on the subject, it becomes a question of whether she believes us when we say something is possible. And she will, because that's our relationship with her. Doing that kills the dynamic that your vote is going to foist on her where she's going to spend the next several hours wondering if we really can help with Kyouko while trying to convince herself that we won't be able to so that she won't be dissapointed. Maybe I've been pushing my argument wrong or something, I dunno, but I just look at your vote and my brain goes "does not compute," because you're voting to open up this old wound while not going to the full available lengths to make it as painless as possible.
Because... Because you don't want to make a privacy device? Like, okay, if you're not comfortable with using the privacy device in this tone or setting, let's do it someplace else. Let's go home and we can talk to Mami while we cook and do it there. Let's do anything other than hurt her unnecessarily. Maybe that means something other than my vote. I'm okay with that. But it absolutely doesn't mean doing... That.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
There is some risk involved, of course. The idea is that with us there as a moderating factor, we can steer it towards the positive end of the spectrum.
Mami has had faith in our ability to talk people down for quite some time now. I very much doubt that her thinking it's impossible will be an issue.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Isn't this too sudden?
Shouldn't we start by telling Mami we want her and Kyouko to become friends again, before we tell her we're doing progress on that?
You know, anybody could easily answer: "No. Mind your own business."
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Anyway, I think we should only get permission from Mami for Kyouko to train Sayaka.
We can spring the whole reconciliation thing and ruin her afternoon at another time.
[X] Head home and talk on the way.
-[X] You're happy Sayaka thinks a lot better of Homura now.
-[X] About Sayaka's training, you've asked Kyouko if she could help her with her melee skills.
--[X] You're sorry to bring this up without warning, but would Mami be OK with Kyouko hopping over to Mitakihara to train with Sayaka?
--[X] Explain Kyouko's situation as necessary: The lack of Witches; her taking care of Yuma. And how you think Sayaka and Kyouko can help each other with their respective... problems.
---[X] If Mami's...
----[X] ... distraught, just go on about lunch and picnic preparations. Try and make time to visit Oriko.
----[X] ... amenable, tell her that, as far as you can tell, she and Kyouko still want to be friends. You think they can.
Maybe if Mami's somehow doing great after we bring up Kyouko, we can tell her about the reconcililation thing.
We can spring the whole reconciliation thing and ruin her afternoon at another time.
[X] Head home and talk on the way.
-[X] You're happy Sayaka thinks a lot better of Homura now.
-[X] About Sayaka's training, you've asked Kyouko if she could help her with her melee skills.
--[X] You're sorry to bring this up without warning, but would Mami be OK with Kyouko hopping over to Mitakihara to train with Sayaka?
--[X] Explain Kyouko's situation as necessary: The lack of Witches; her taking care of Yuma. And how you think Sayaka and Kyouko can help each other with their respective... problems.
---[X] If Mami's...
----[X] ... distraught, just go on about lunch and picnic preparations. Try and make time to visit Oriko.
----[X] ... amenable, tell her that, as far as you can tell, she and Kyouko still want to be friends. You think they can.
Maybe if Mami's somehow doing great after we bring up Kyouko, we can tell her about the reconcililation thing.