I'm not sure where stupidity, arrogance and 'gets others killed' comes from to be honest.
She is completely willing to allow unarmed civilians to follow her on which hunts, completely dismiss the advice of other magical girls and actively prevent them from aiding her or any unarmed civilians she has with her, do her teacup thing without actually verifying that the witch is indeed dead, and kill people for what she views as their own good.
 
....is it just me, or did Sayaka suddenly become a YGO card at some point?

...and a fairly good one, at that?


[jk]Tribute one of your Grief Tokens to summon Sayaka in Attack Mode, temporarily stunning Homura and Mami into befuddlement as they try to figure out what the bloody hell you're talking about.
 
She is completely willing to allow unarmed civilians to follow her on which hunts
Wrong. Remember Sayaka's magically enchanted baseball bat and how effective it was against Familiars.
completely dismiss the advice of other magical girls and actively prevent them from aiding her or any unarmed civilians she has with her
She dismissed advice from someone who had just hurt her friend (Kyubey), and was, from her perspective, presented as hostile and out to grab her territory.
do her teacup thing without actually verifying that the witch is indeed dead
When a soldier blows someone up with a rocket and their target dies 100% of the time, they don't expect the next target to be any different.

Besides, she was on a emotional high.
and kill people for what she views as their own good.
She was high on grief after finding out her efforts were futile, her worldview was shattered, and she had just killed one of her only friends and students.

She would not have killed anyone otherwise if it weren't for Grief literally toying with her mind.
 
Wrong. Remember Sayaka's magically enchanted baseball bat and how effective it was against Familiars.
Remember Madoka and her complete lack of weapon, and how Mami literally pulled her into the barrier, while Sayaka was unarmed inside it?

When a soldier blows someone up with a rocket and their target dies 100% of the time, they don't expect the next target to be any different.
Just because it usually works is no reason for you to assume it will work this time, and just because you have gotten away with it before does not make it any less of a bad habit.

She would not have killed anyone otherwise if it weren't for Grief literally toying with her mind.
Since she was also willing to trap an untransformed Homura and leave her alone and helpless inside a witches barrier, I find it less likely that she is unwilling to kill people.
 
Remember Madoka and her complete lack of weapon, and how Mami literally pulled her into the barrier, while Sayaka was unarmed inside it?
Sayaka went inside on her own will. Mami wasn't there to stop her.

As for Madoka, I don't recall Mami ever pulling her into Charlotte's Barrier. Most likely, Madoka went in there of her own free will, otherwise she'd make a fuss about it. Mami had proven time and time again that she was a capable guardian, and if she could take care of two people at once, what harm is there in bringing Madoka when she's adequately protected by Mami?
Just because it usually works is no reason for you to assume it will work this time, and just because you have gotten away with it before does not make it any less of a bad habit.
She didn't assume because of no reason. Past experience tell her that it works 100% of the time. Why else should she assume it wouldn't? It's a completely understandable oversight.

Think of it like this. 100% of the time, I walk up the stairs without incident. I have no reason to assume otherwise since there isn't any special circumstance present.
Since she was also willing to trap an untransformed Homura and leave her alone and helpless inside a witches barrier, I find it less likely that she is unwilling to kill people.
Alone, sure. Helpless? Hardly. No familiar came for Homura since Mami was attracting their attention. That and it's a fair assumption that Homura has a trick or two up her sleeve that would allow her to escape. Kyubey did tell Mami that Homura's dangerous after all.

If Mami really was that willing to kill, she wouldn't have given Homura all those chances to back down, and instead opted for a gun fight the moment they were alone with each other.
 
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Mami had proven time and time again that she was a capable guardian, and if she could take care of two people at once, what harm is there in bringing Madoka when she's adequately protected by Mami?
Bringing a civilain into a combat zone or allowing a civilain into a combat zone is a moronic move on her part, course she's a teenage girl and thus I personally dont mind to much.
She dismissed advice from someone who had just hurt her friend (Kyubey), and was, from her perspective, presented as hostile and out to grab her territory.
She refused to listen to even listen to someone who had information about a upcoming danger, if she had grilled Homura on what she knew about the witch her actions would been fine, however she completely disregarded her and acted like Homura didn't even matter, even though she is a bloody danger considering the fact that she is a Magical Girl that Kuybey knew nothing about. Her actions in this case are high minded arrogance, and is not something that I will over look.
After all no one is perfect in Pmmm.
 
Generic universal role-playing system is best role-playing system. I made a character that was a rock once. Literally, that is, not angstily: mad scientist's pet rock was on the periphery of a lab accident and ended up with intelligence, clairvoyance, and weapons-grade telekinesis.

edit: The disadvantage points for not having arms, legs, hands, eyes, a face, etc balanced out almost perfectly with the advantage points it took to reacquire all of that functionality by other means. It was actually pretty impressive.
 
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Bringing a civilain into a combat zone or allowing a civilain into a combat zone is a moronic move on her part, course she's a teenage girl and thus I personally dont mind to much.
When it's a literal breeze, it ain't much of a combat zone.

Of course, that attitude killed her in the end when she was a bit too happy so eh, conceded.
She refused to listen to even listen to someone who had information about a upcoming danger, if she had grilled Homura on what she knew about the witch her actions would been fine, however she completely disregarded her and acted like Homura didn't even matter, even though she is a bloody danger considering the fact that she is a Magical Girl that Kuybey knew nothing about. Her actions in this case are high minded arrogance, and is not something that I will over look.
After all no one is perfect in Pmmm.
Definitely, no one's perfect in PMMM.

For all Mami knew, Homura was either bluffing or spreading misinformationn since how could Homura possibly know about a newborn Witch's abilities? Magical Girls have never been shown to encounter the same Witch twice after they defeat it once after all. From her perspective, what Homura was saying was impossible, and a waste of the time she could spend saving Sayaka.

Homura mattered to Mami, that's why she binded Homura. It wouldn't do to get ganked while in the middle of a witch fight.
 
You...realize D&D has other races besides humans, and I said 'people', right?

Though on the matter of humans, Gary Gygax has gone on record saying that most people are predisposed away from moral extremes like Law and Chaos (back when those were the only alignments).



Full agreement there, I'm just saying that Kyouko doesn't fall under its definitions of Evil. She's at worst Chaotic Neutral because people aren't the sum of their actions. D&D doesn't ping you as Evil for failing to save people you could have, should have saved. It only counts active actions of driven malice.

Humans are the only race that exists in reality though, so that's a moot point. The alignment system was overhauled when the second axis was added, so Gygax's statement stopped applying and in human monster entries, humans were not all listed as neutral.

As for Kyouko, I consider her actions to be active actions of driven malice. She actively kills people she could leave alive.

The problem with D&D style morality is that it depends on an outside, objective morality that simply does not make logical sense in our universe.

It makes more sense if you view it from the character's standpoint (A Inside Conscience, as in the way the character views themselves) or from a societal standpoint (A Outside Conscience, as in the way society would view the character if given omniscience over their actions)

So a Paladin who casts Holy word in a crowded street who doesn't care about casualties would remain lawful good using a Inner-Compass, while he might fall if the game is using an Outer-Compass. On the flipside, using the Inner-Compass, a Paladin who fails to save someone due to forces outside their control might fall, whereas they would be safe on the Outer-Compass, depending on how the psyche of that particular paladin is built. For example, take the Mitakihara Five:

Puella-------Inner---------Outer
Mami-------TN--------------LG
Sayaka-----LE--------------LG
Kyouko-----CN-------------CE
Madoka----NE-------------TG
Homura----LE--------------LN


Now, due to the nature of PMMM, all the girls have a rather negative view of themselves, but it gets my point across. Once you get past Madoka being True Evil and Adolf Hitler spending his tenure as Fhurer as a Lawful Good man, it starts to make a lot more sense. There's also the added bonus of level loss being more easily explained as emotional trauma/Fighting their own distrust of their comrades.

Oh shit, this isn't /tg/, sorry.

Yeah, I only use the Outer compass.
 
As for Kyouko, I consider her actions to be active actions of driven malice. She actively kills people she could leave alive.
When? killing magical girls that purposely lessen amount of resources needed for Kyouko to live is a matter of continued survival. Otherwise she doesn't kill at all she simply doesn't save people she could. Which isn't Malice, just simply apathy.
 
I try to use Combined Inner Compass. As in, the Inner Compass of everyone involved/near enough.
Outer Compass is still a good guideline.

EDIT: Whatever it was, it's resolved now.
 
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When? killing magical girls that purposely lessen amount of resources needed for Kyouko to live is a matter of continued survival. Otherwise she doesn't kill at all she simply doesn't save people she could. Which isn't Malice, just simply apathy.
She could leave those magical girls alone. Them reducing her resources doesn't change that. In addition, Homura told Kyouko to leave Sayaka alone, so Kyouko disobeyed her, hunted Sayaka down and provoked her so she had an excuse to kill Sayaka out of spite.
 
She could leave those magical girls alone. Them reducing her resources doesn't change that. In addition, Homura told Kyouko to leave Sayaka alone, so Kyouko disobeyed her, hunted Sayaka down and provoked her so she had an excuse to kill Sayaka out of spite.
I think her perspective was if she left them alone, she would starve by association (10 witches among 5 MG = maybe 2 seeds each, while 10 among 2 is more likely going to be 5 each.)
Kyouko either didn't want to be told what to do or wanted to 'slap some sense' into Sayaka's Idealistic viewpoint and things just escalated badly.
 
She could leave those magical girls alone. Them reducing her resources doesn't change that. In addition, Homura told Kyouko to leave Sayaka alone, so Kyouko disobeyed her, hunted Sayaka down and provoked her so she had an excuse to kill Sayaka out of spite.
First point is a good one
Second point is Irrelevant.
As to the third, Kyouko tried to become friends with Sayaka, Sayaka then acted like an utter ass and Kyouko retaliated, which lead them both wanting a fight so the fault is on both of them.
 
Even if she is right that she would starve, she could decide to starve.
And then there would be another magical girl doing the same thing, just with more chance of ambush killing Mami due to no relationship between the two.

Everyone loses somehow/eventually to absolute morals.
Stealing bread to survive needs to be accounted for to help civilization.
 
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First point is a good one
Second point is Irrelevant.
As to the third, Kyouko tried to become friends with Sayaka, Sayaka then acted like an utter ass and Kyouko retaliated, which lead them both wanting a fight so the fault is on both of them.

Kyouko insulted Sayaka and her ideologies, told her to become abusive and then threatened to torture and rape the boy she loves. Thopse are not the acions of someone trying to make friends. Even defenders of Kyouko admit she was provoking Sayaka. She wanted an excuse to murder Sayaka. That's how I see it.

And then there would be another magical girl doing the same thing, just with more chance of ambush killing Mami due to no relationship between the two.

Everyone loses somehow/eventually to absolute morals.
Stealing bread to survive needs to be accounted for to help civilization.

Before the new magical girl arrives, many people would be prevented from dying. In addition, good magical girls would survive ad possibly team up with each other or Mami and stop the evil ones. Even if you were right, it doesn't change who the evil one is.
 
Kyouko insulted Sayaka and her ideologies, told her to become abusive and then threatened to torture and rape the boy she loves. Thopse are not the acions of someone trying to make friends. Even defenders of Kyouko admit she was provoking Sayaka. She wanted an excuse to murder Sayaka. That's how I see it.
And Kyouko told her traumatic back story to Sayaka to explain why she acts the way she does in order to help Sayaka with her current problems, Sayaka then tells Kyouko that she has zero interest in thinking about it and tells her that her ideals and reasons are irrelevant and that she can just go and die for all she cares, cause dying really would make the world a better place after all.
 
And Kyouko told her traumatic back story to Sayaka to explain why she acts the way she does in order to help Sayaka with her current problems, Sayaka then tells Kyouko that she has zero interest in thinking about it and tells her that her ideals and reasons are irrelevant and that she can just go and die for all she cares, cause dying really would make the world a better place after all.
Well, I agree with Sayaka. Backstories and situations are no excuse as far as I'm concerned.
 
If I remember right, there are three things that are taken into account regarding an action:
1. The act itself
2. The motive/intention
3. The circumstance/context

The third one can mitigate the severity of an action, but it does not provide a complete excuse for it.
 
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GURPS. Only that beast of a system can handle our intense desire to munchkin coupled with our desire for intense realistic tactical action.
Generic universal role-playing system is best role-playing system. I made a character that was a rock once. Literally, that is, not angstily: mad scientist's pet rock was on the periphery of a lab accident and ended up with intelligence, clairvoyance, and weapons-grade telekinesis.

edit: The disadvantage points for not having arms, legs, hands, eyes, a face, etc balanced out almost perfectly with the advantage points it took to reacquire all of that functionality by other means. It was actually pretty impressive.
Now this is what I like to see! Screw those "entry-level" RPGs with nonsensical morality systems baked in, use a real system! :D
 
Now this is what I like to see! Screw those "entry-level" RPGs with nonsensical morality systems baked in, use a real system! :D

To be fair, you could play as a rock in D&D too. :V

E: And if you're wondering how I remembered a thread from 2009, the OP of that thread was a player in my campaigns IRL.
 
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