Madoka putting others before herself is exactly why she munchkined, though, and she could only do so due to Homura's sincerity and hard work to reconnect with her.

So, yea, no, the Aesop of PMMM is that people's connections to each other are what cause real changes, as opposed to Kyubey's Utalitarian mindset that reduces the masses into a statistic.

This is, in fact, a common theme in all of Urobuchi's works, that pursuit of an anti-Utalitarian goal for the sake of an emotionally significant individual is valid and important.

Why she munchkinned doesn't change the fact that she needed to.

The dead meguca are dead. We're not going to fix all of history. That would be silly, and we don't need to. Fucking with the past has weird unknowable consequences anyway. Alien guca are... not really my concern. It would be nice to help them too, but one thing at a time. We haven't even saved an island nation yet, much less even our own planet.

Overall I believe absolutely absurdly powerful things that would actually allow us to fight the incubators head on would only come via plot powerup. Timestop is redundant- we have Homura and I don't see why we'd have that ability. Time travel would trivialize everything, so that's probably not possible. We can possibly go FTL with a big experimentation investment, but we've nowhere to go other than earth locations and hence there's not much point.

Madokami fixed all of history and space and she asked for everything to be fixed, so you're saying you want to deny her and deliberately make a worse Universe than canon despite the fact that that is doing the opposite of what Madokami told us to do. Not being concerned with alien meguca is also discrimination and Madoka would find that disgusting. We know that a Madokawish can fix all of history and space, so if we refuse to let her do that and don't fix it ourselves, then all that suffering is our fault.

As for plot powerup, what could possibly power us up that we can't access now?

EDIT:^ She gave them better lives as well. And as those people didn't witch, they didn't need to be saved from that horrible fate.
 
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A random thought: If the goal of this quest, before single update came out, was always to break the system/fix everything/do better than Madokami, then shouldn't the method for us to do so be independent of what wish/powers we chose? Clearly we should use our powers to that end as best we can, but it seems to me that there should be a reasonable path to accomplish our goal regardless of how well we apply our wish magic.
I strongly disagree.

I do agree that a method should exist regardless of what Wish we make, but that doesn't mean whatever Wish we make won't be absolutely necessary to achieving our goal.

That said, even if there is another method, we have no way of knowing what it is at the moment. We can help the cast, but breaking the System...the scope of that is huge. We need to pursue every avenue and push our Wish to its limits to achieve that with our current knowledge--if another option becomes apparent, we'll explore that too, but one isn't apparent at present.
 
And how is Feathers supposed to power us up?
Well, it IS possible Feathers isn't an enemy. All we know for certain is that Feathers breaks Oriko's precog on arrival.

After all, it's entirely possible Feathers is Sabrina, after discovering some new ability. Recall that Oriko WAS our villain when she was trying to avert Feathers.

So...might be worth poking the Feathers button (Barriers?) until we know what it actually is.

Might not be.

We need to learn about it somehow, though.
 
Huh. Idea: Try to create a Grief Artifact that detects lies. Test it with Mami. If it works, go ask Oriko about Feathers and the events preceding its arrival.

Worst Case: We annoy Oriko.

Best Case: We find out she's been lying about something important regarding Feathers, and push her for straight answers. We could possibly create an Artifact that compels the wearer to give true answers, although using it might hurt relations with Best Buddy.
 
Madokami fixed all of history and space and she asked for everything to be fixed, so you're saying you want to deny her and deliberately make a worse Universe than canon despite the fact that that is doing the opposite of what Madokami told us to do. Not being concerned with alien meguca is also discrimination and Madoka would find that disgusting. We know that a Madokawish can fix all of history and space, so if we refuse to let her do that and don't fix it ourselves, then all that suffering is our fault.
*sigh* Yes, Aliens getting screwed by incubators is bad. No, they're not a concern right now. No, it's not discrimination, it's realism. We need to focus on our friends and loved ones, the immediate area, the country, and expand until we can help the globe. Until then, the aliens (who we don't even know) are gonna have to sit tight.

I'm not saying make a worse universe, I'm saying the better universe you envision isn't realistic given what we have. Hell, Madoka didn't even fix everything. She made the final fate of meguca less shitty. That's it. They're still child soldiers doomed to die before their time. Wish or no, we can't fix everything.
As for plot powerup, what could possibly power us up that we can't access now?
I don't know, but our current powers simply don't allow for the kind of absurd power levels that you're demanding we pursue so we can go have a giant intergalactic war.
 
Madokami fixed all of history and space

She changed one single fact about the universe, which also sprouted new problems to fill the void. She barely changed anything. She changed so little that most people wouldn't ever notice even if they had memories of the previous universe.

That change still mattered, but you're overselling it quite a bit.
 
@Sereg

Potential Alien Megucae are not a current concern, as we don't even know if they exist.

Dead Megucae ARE a concern, but far less so than Witches: Death is normal, and they may indeed be in a better place. Afterlife construction/time-travel "resurrection" can wait until we save living Megucae and the massive number of Witches throughout the world and imprisoned by the Incubators.

Not saying they aren't significant issues, but we have to prioritize according to our knowledge, our means, and the urgency of the issue.

The dead aren't urgent, as time isn't an issue for them. We have no knowledge regarding alien megucae, so they are at the bottom until that changes.
 
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I return from my slumber, and I guess the update isn't still yet up?

Eh

cute

i waffle

[x] Onmur

*sway*
A random thought: If the goal of this quest, before single update came out, was always to break the system/fix everything/do better than Madokami, then shouldn't the method for us to do so be independent of what wish/powers we chose? Clearly we should use our powers to that end as best we can, but it seems to me that there should be a reasonable path to accomplish our goal regardless of how well we apply our wish magic.
Madoka wished everything could be fixed, and that would still be true if we wished for cakes, or indestructibility, or WH4K figurine powers.

Firn would have twisted the implications of our wish as much as he needed to to make it happen.
To provide an alternative on what @Higure said, have a weaker, more pessimistic proposition:

PMAS isn't certain to be won, as it is a quest where our choices matter. Just like you can fail to live up to your potential by voting to stab yourself with a sword in the heart you could also vote - wish - badly, especially as that vote sure is one of the more important ones.

Though, as far as "loss possible warnings go", I'd have picked the one where we self-destructed Mitakihara over the one where all our friends are in Madokahalla.


Regarding dead/alien/etc. meguca, as long as we save/bring a new life for each one of them we'll have surely done better.

Unless you only consider saving normals once all meguca are saved.

But eh tbh with how much we've talked of this before this is pretty much small-talk. Others talk of weather for convo, we talk of dead meguca; 'tis Sabrina.
 
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Huh. Idea: Try to create a Grief Artifact that detects lies. Test it with Mami. If it works, go ask Oriko about Feathers and the events preceding its arrival.

Worst Case: We annoy Oriko.

Best Case: We find out she's been lying about something important regarding Feathers, and push her for straight answers. We could possibly create an Artifact that compels the wearer to give true answers, although using it might hurt relations with Best Buddy.

Seeing as though I think I've suggested this before, I approve.

*sigh* Yes, Aliens getting screwed by incubators is bad. No, they're not a concern right now. No, it's not discrimination, it's realism. We need to focus on our friends and loved ones, the immediate area, the country, and expand until we can help the globe. Until then, the aliens (who we don't even know) are gonna have to sit tight.

I'm not saying make a worse universe, I'm saying the better universe you envision isn't realistic given what we have.

We know Madoka can save them, and we're preventing her from doing so, so yes, it's realistic, because we know she can do it, and yes, that's makinga worse Universe otherwise.

Hell, Madoka didn't even fix everything. She made the final fate of meguca less shitty. That's it. They're still child soldiers doomed to die before their time. Wish or no, we can't fix everything.

By far the most important thing, and it makes the rest of their life less shitty as well, as has been mentioned before. If you don't understand why, we can explain it to you.

I don't know, but our current powers simply don't allow for the kind of absurd power levels that you're demanding we pursue so we can go have a giant intergalactic war.

No. Our current known powers don't allow that. We're discovering new ones all the time. We had those from the start, so there's no reason to believe we don't have others.


The claim is we can fix everything by talking to people. Madokami fixed all of space and time, including the dead and aliens. I want to know how talking to people fixes all of space and time.

She changed one single fact about the universe, which also sprouted new problems to fill the void. She barely changed anything. She changed so little that most people wouldn't ever notice even if they had memories of the previous universe.

That change still mattered, but you're overselling it quite a bit.

She changed the most important thing about the Universe which completely changed the lives of those directly affected by it. Youre underselling it. Again, if you don't understand why it's so important, I can explain it to you.

@Sereg

Potential Alien Megucae are not a current concern, as we don't even know if they exist.

There's an alien witch in the PSP as well as a bunch of other circumstantial evidence, but fine.

Dead Megucae ARE a concern, but far less so than Witches: Death is normal, and they may indeed be in a better place. Afterlife construction/time-travel "resurrection" can wait until we save living Megucae and the massive number of Witches throughout the world and imprisoned by the Incubators.

Not saying they aren't significant issues, but we have to prioritize according to our knowledge, our means, and the urgency of the issue.

The dead aren't urgent, as time isn't an issue for them. We have no knowledge regarding alien megucae, so they are at the bottom until that changes.

The thing is, arguments like these miss the point I'm trying to make:

Eventually, we'll need power A for goal B, which we only need to accomplish at time C, but if we know that we must be able to eventually get power A, then getting it earlier helps with earlier goal D and if we don't get it by earlier time E, The Incubators are likely to crush us.

That's my argument.
 
Eventually, we'll need power A for goal B, which we only need to accomplish at time C, but if we know that we must be able to eventually get power A, then getting it earlier helps with earlier goal D and if we don't get it by earlier time E, The Incubators are likely to crush us..
I feel like I'm missing some sort of flowchart to go with this.
 
Sereg said:
She changed the most important thing about the Universe which completely changed the lives of those directly affected by it. Youre underselling it. Again, if you don't understand why it's so important, I can explain it to you.

I'm not sure I'm willing to concede that girls turning into witches is the most important thing in the universe.

Certainly, it doesn't matter to 99% of sentient beings who live in it. I'm not saying it ISN'T important, but even if it's the most important thing that's still not "lol Madoka save all timespace 5ever."

Infact, the Incubator's actions in Rebellion pretty much confirm she explicitly didn't do so.

There's an alien witch in the PSP as well as a bunch of other circumstantial evidence, but fine.

I don't mean to nitpick, and I agree alien meguca are a high possibility, but Itzli is technically a Witch with an alien theme and narrative. It's entirely possible she's a human girl who fell into despair over something like alienation or displacement in an unfamiliar community or something ("I never made any friends because Dad's work always made us move"), and she turned into an alien the same way Sayaka turned into a Mermaid.

This interpretation is given non-trivial credibility by the Concept Movie drawing attention to the other PSP-only Witches as Law of Cycles girls, and her inclusion in the PSP Slot Machine as a fairly unremarkable boss fight (in that it's not Giga-Walpurgis).
 
@AuraTwilight/@Sereg(/@Gadjo):

I think your disagreement stems from basic tenet in what you consider important, and interpretation of canon and PMAS merely colours and guides it. This topic has come up before between you all (and my position is stated now too :3), too, doubt it will change.

So....Idle talk is fine by me, but before rehash 9: rehashifying, checking: you do find the discussion enjoyable or simulating, right?
 
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By far the most important thing, and it makes the rest of their life less shitty as well, as has been mentioned before. If you don't understand why, we can explain it to you.
A: I get your argument. Don't be condescending, it only makes flamewars more toxic.

B: It does make the rest of their lives less shitty, but only relatively. As I said, they're still child soldiers, doomed to fight until their eventual death, likely long before they reach adulthood.
The claim is we can fix everything by talking to people. Madokami fixed all of space and time, including the dead and aliens. I want to know how talking to people fixes all of space and time.
The claim is that fixing people's personal problems and befriending them will help us when the shit hits the fan with feathers. Madokami did not fix all of space and time, she took witching, and instead made it "go to magical girl valhalla". I want to know how fixing witches fixes all of space time. Space and time were behaving... pretty much the same before and after her wish.
 
I feel like I'm missing some sort of flowchart to go with this.

It' late. I'll see what I can do tomorrow.

I'm not sure I'm willing to concede that girls turning into witches is the most important thing in the universe.

Certainly, it doesn't matter to 99% of sentient beings who live in it. I'm not saying it ISN'T important, but even if it's the most important thing that's still not "lol Madoka save all timespace 5ever."

The number of people affected has zero impact on its importance. Only the size if its impact on the person who was most impacted by it. I say it was far more important than the rest of the Universe put together. And yes I count it as saving all timespace forever. As I've said before, witches are a big deal to me.

Infact, the Incubator's actions in Rebellion pretty much confirm she explicitly didn't do so.

As I've said before, Madokami's powers mean Rebellion only makes sense if it was planned by Madokami.


I don't mean to nitpick, and I agree alien meguca are a high possibility, but Itzli is technically a Witch with an alien theme and narrative. It's entirely possible she's a human girl who fell into despair over something like alienation or displacement in an unfamiliar community or something ("I never made any friends because Dad's work always made us move"), and she turned into an alien the same way Sayaka turned into a Mermaid.

This interpretation is given non-trivial credibility by the Concept Movie drawing attention to the other PSP-only Witches as Law of Cycles girls, and her inclusion in the PSP Slot Machine as a fairly unremarkable boss fight (in that it's not Giga-Walpurgis).

"A witch who is said to have originally been a magical girl who came from the end of the galaxy."

EDIT: @'Lement: All right. I should be sleeping anyway.
 
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The number of people affected has zero impact on its importance.
Uhhhh. That seems at odds with your assertion that if we "merely" save the meguca on earth from their fates, that we've failed and should go make Madoka wish. If the number of people affected is unimportant, hell why don't we just focus on our friends? I think we should look beyond them as well, but you can see why that logic is problematic.
 
The number of people affected has zero impact on its importance. Only the size if its impact on the person who was most impacted by it. I say it was far more important than the rest of the Universe put together. And yes I count it as saving all timespace forever. As I've said before, witches are a big deal to me.
...that makes no sense at all. None whatsoever. Of course the amount of people affected is important to this, why would the impact on a single person have any effect at all? Why does 'witches are important' make removing witches save all of timespace forever'?
As I've said before, Madokami's powers mean Rebellion only makes sense if it was planned by Madokami.
This is even more puzzling. It runs entirely counter to everything in the narrative, and asserts a much higher powerlevel given to her than was ever implied in any part of the franchise. Madokami is not omnipotent, she isn't even categorically omnipotent in things her own purview. Nothing about her or the story requires or states that she is.
 
Another science thing for later would be extreme enviromental change in the 100 meters radius. Like "this is my territory, and I decide how reality works inside" extreme.

Make it pitch-dark. Fill it wih water. Make the floor lava. Invert gravity. That sort of things.
This is good. Real good.
Hmm... Maybe a "everyone in this area has completely inverted senses"?
Up is down, right is left, big is small, loud is quiet, everything becomes upside down, ane vice versa..

EDIT: I finally can get back to the thread, and just...what.
 
Can I get a quote on someone saying we should SOCIAL for SOCIAL's sake? Please?

AFAIK, meguca cooperation's been a shadowy long term goal for a while, with Sabrina's very Wish being an enabler for, at least, nearby meguca to be able to cooperate without having to fight for resources.
This, I guess?
Social links for the sake of social links are Mumihugs. We don't need other peoples hugs. We need other peoples superpowers to help us protect teh mumihugs. QED.
Mostly I was just expressing my agreement with the sentiment, which I suppose might be confusing.


This is good. Real good.
Hmm... Maybe a "everyone in this area has completely inverted senses"?
Up is down, right is left, big is small, loud is quiet, everything becomes upside down, ane vice versa..

EDIT: I finally can get back to the thread, and just...what.
That's not exactly inverted because 5 isn't the opposite of 5 million. Some kind of altered sensory perception might be useful, especially if you randomized it, but where would we end up using it?
 
This, I guess?

Mostly I was just expressing my agreement with the sentiment, which I suppose might be confusing.



That's not exactly inverted because 5 isn't the opposite of 5 million. Some kind of altered sensory perception might be useful, especially if you randomized it, but where would we end up using it?
Yeah, sense ofvperception was what I was going for.

And you can't tell md it wouldn't be useful in a combat situation, especially if Sabrina randomised the effects every..40 seconds let's say.

A confused enemy is a dead Gem Rocked one, after all.
 
Madoka's canon wish ultimately only affected magical girls, and even then, her influence was limited to preventing witches and providing an afterlife. Unlike Sereg, I agree that her canon wish hardly 'fixed everything'. But then, I also think her PMAS wish was better then her canonical wish.

I still believe that:
• On an OOC basis, if we, as a playerbase, can't get a better ending then the canonical one, then this whole endeavour was pointless. That the canonical ending wasn't perfect just means that our goal is possible - after all, definitionally, you can't improve perfection.

• On an IC basis, Madoka's wish has been fulfilled - everything can be fixed. Not necessarily easily, and not necessarily by us, but change for the better is possible.
 
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