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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Higure said:
Wait...this is kinda random, but have we actually tried de-Witching an active Witch?
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I know I've considered doing the Clear Seed thing on an active witch, but I'm not sure if I got around to suggesting it.

Your therapy idea is interesting, but there's a reason Grief is called that. A combination of approaches might yield better results.
 
AuraTwilight said:
No, the burden of proof is on you for the following: 1) That the wish is working directly for us beyond something already completed like "Dump Sabrina with all the canon info", 2) demonstrate that Sabrina's power is on par with Madokami and that our purpose isn't satisfied by more lower tiers of power like social linking, 3) Demonstrate that Kyubey would disregard any and all of his ethics for Sabrina's interference, and 4) Demonstrate that Sabrina can defeat an Omega Point civilization that can literally imprison deities.
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1). Madokami's wishes are powerful enough to rewrite the universe. They always come true. To what extent 'fixing everything' is our burden alone, I don't know, but I do know that the wish would have made it possible. If not by using Sabrina as a medium, then by altering the world itself instead.

2). Sabrina's witch is an ontological threat on par with conceptual beings. Not conclusive evidence, but it's certainly suggestive, don't you think? I can't think of any cases where the power disparity between a puella magi and her witch is that great - and with our ability, we should be especially capable of anything our witch is.

3). Kyuubey is shown to actively interfere when the stakes are high enough in Rebellion. Whether there's some specific threshold that needs to be breached, or if it's just a steady ramping up, we don't know. Certainly his lack of interference with the Madowish when contrasted with the isolation field implies that it's slow to act, but I don't think expecting no action from QB indefinitely matches canonical evidence.

4). Point two essentialy covers this - if Sabrina has access to that level of power, then even QB will falter eventually. A better question is if we should.

I feel that as long as QB is driving emotional life to despair for energy, we have not yet succeeded. If earth is the only planet with emotional life, our job becomes much easier - but I don't think that's likely, both because of the scale of the universe, and because of the circumstantial evidence of alien witches.

So. We need to stop the Incubators from harvesting energy. Just providing them with energy will probably be insufficient - they have no incentive to not continue their operations in addition to whatever we provide.

We could go for the diplomatic solution - attain an incentive great enough that the Incubators feel it is worth discontinuing their operations for. Unfortunately, Rebellion shows that trusting the Incubator rarely turns out well for anyone.

And that leaves attaining enough power to either leverage the Incubators to abide by our bargain, or to outright force them to follow our rules.

Higure said:
The root of all her problems is the universe and its laws, the System.

Social isn't going to fix that. That said, brute force won't either. It would help with Walpurgis, but...we can probably do that already.
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This. Messing around with lasers and such is fun, and good Mumi therapy, but any actual success is going to be much more abstract. That's why learning the limitations on Sabrina's powers is so important.

Think about it this way: if effects we create within the bounds of physics propagate beyond our range, do we have any actual limits in terms of sheer power? Is there a upper cap to how powerful a beam we can emit, or can we just keep upping the power until Prima Luce makes quasars look like firecrackers?

And if there isn't a limit... what can't be done within the bounds of physics?
 
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Torgamous said:
I know I've considered doing the Clear Seed thing on an active witch, but I'm not sure if I got around to suggesting it.

Your therapy idea is interesting, but there's a reason Grief is called that. A combination of approaches might yield better results.
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Very Creative solution, but wouldn't an active witch have enough grief to completely fill a clear seed and hatch it? Maybe multiple clear seeds would work better?
 
Random832 said:
I think "doing the Clear Seed thing" means "removing all the grief in the same way we remove it all from a normal grief seed to create a clear seed." But I don't think we've been able to find anything that can be targeted for that.
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Just take all the grief away from the witch. It's lying there in barrier and familiar form. So far we've only ever taken as much grief as was necessary to kill it.
 
MrLZRS said:
Can I get a Vote Tally? I wish to know if I voted and if it's legit.
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Vote Tally : Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 4021 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4

[x] Uh. Hmm. I suppose I'd be okay with that if you are, Mami? Though if that round goes as quickly as I expect it will, maybe we can shuffle the teams for the next go around?
-[x] After all, you could really do with the dodge training almost as much as Sayaka, and the best people to get dodge training from are obviously Mami and Homura, right?
--[x] We'll decide whether to switch teams around once we see how things play out. What kind of ruleset will we be using, anyway? No magic? Limited magic? Mami, Homura, thoughts? Defer to the veterans' expertise.
---[x] If Homura brings up not wanting Sayaka to copy her power, and Mami objects, try and smooth it over. Use telepathy if necessary.
[x] Keep working on the Cannone di Picchio, with Homura's advice taken into account. Try out a scale model of a few loading mechanisms, both hand-held and from larger naval artillery. See which ones are easiest for you to handle.
-[x] Try integrating a loading mechanism into one of Mami's muskets, to see how your magics interact on a smaller scale. Note any issues or oddities and try to resolve them.
--[x] If all goes well, try it with Tiro Finale. Let Mami name the result.
---[x] If it's safe, have your chibi climb onto the cannon while you work on it. Invite Mami's chibi as well.
[x] When Sayaka arrives, greet her. Act like absolutely nothing unusual is going on in the background. If she asks, tounge-in-cheek, tell her you don't know what she's talking about.
-[x] Get ready for training - have Mami explain the rules of the spar, and dissolve all the science experiments (including, sadly, the chibis). If Sayaka's still curious, tell her that you were practicing a few things yourself before she arrived.
--[x] Try and make sure Sayaka doesn't repeat the same mistakes Mami identified yesterday: In particular, tunnel vision and not considering approaches before taking them. Don't judge Sayaka, though - you're not infallible either, and there's things for you to improve on as well.
---[x] Within the rules of the spar, take it as seriously as possible - you'll need to if you want to have the slightest chance of success against Mami and Homura, and this is a learning experience for you too.
[x] After the spar, unwind and be a bit silly. Show Sayaka that you discovered yesterday that puella magi can shift outfits when they want to - kinda like how she recreated her cape, but on a bigger scale.
-[x] Cosplay as Shinki from Touhou, complete with wings.
--[x] If anyone specifically asks about the costume, tell them it's an obscure Touhou character.
No. of Votes: 9
Nele
DB_Explorer
Genial Precis
Hannz
'Lement
Muramasa
Redshirt Army
Sereg
TheEyes

[x] Uh. Hmm. I suppose I'd be okay with that if you are, Mami? Though if that round goes as quickly as I expect it will, maybe we can shuffle the teams for the next go around?
-[x] After all, you could really do with the dodge training almost as much as Sayaka, and the best people to get dodge training from are obviously Mami and Homura, right?
--[x] We'll decide whether to switch teams around once we see how things play out. What kind of ruleset will we be using, anyway? No magic? Limited magic? Mami, Homura, thoughts? Defer to the veterans' expertise.
---[x] If Homura brings up not wanting Sayaka to copy her power, and Mami objects, try and smooth it over. Use telepathy if necessary.
[x] Keep working on the Cannone di Picchio, with Homura's advice taken into account. Try out a scale model of a few loading mechanisms, both hand-held and from larger naval artillery. See which ones are easiest for you to handle.
-[x] Try integrating a loading mechanism into one of Mami's muskets, to see how your magics interact on a smaller scale. Note any issues or oddities and try to resolve them.
--[x] If all goes well, try it with Tiro Finale. Let Mami name the result.
---[x] If it's safe, have your chibi climb onto the cannon while you work on it. Invite Mami's chibi as well.
[x] When Sayaka arrives, show her the Chibis.
-[X] Once that's done, set up for training.
--[X] If Sayaka's bothered by the Chibis, get rid of your own; else, make sure the Chibis will be safe during training.
-[x] Try and make sure Sayaka doesn't repeat the same mistakes Mami identified yesterday: In particular, tunnel vision and not considering approaches before taking them. Don't judge Sayaka, though - you're not infallible either, and there's things for you to improve on as well.
--[x] Within the rules of the spar, take it as seriously as possible - you'll need to if you want to have the slightest chance of success against Mami and Homura, and this is a learning experience for you too.
[x] After the spar, unwind and be a bit silly. Show Sayaka that you discovered yesterday that puella magi can shift outfits when they want to - kinda like how she recreated her cape, but on a bigger scale.
-[x] Cosplay as Shinki from Touhou, complete with wings.
--[x] If anyone specifically asks about the costume, tell them it's an obscure Touhou character.
No. of Votes: 8
UbeOne
aeqnai
Gadjo
nekcihc
Onmur
Script Mak3r
Slith10
The Narrator

[x] Uh. Hmm. I suppose I'd be okay with that if you are, Mami? Though if that round goes as quickly as I expect it will, maybe we can shuffle the teams for the next go around?
-[x] After all, you could really do with the dodge training almost as much as Sayaka, and the best people to get dodge training from are obviously Mami and Homura, right?
--[x] We'll decide whether to switch teams around once we see how things play out. What kind of ruleset will we be using, anyway? No magic? Limited magic? Mami, Homura, thoughts? Defer to the veterans' expertise.
---[x] If Homura brings up not wanting Sayaka to copy her power, and Mami objects, try and smooth it over. Use telepathy if necessary.
[x] Keep working on the Cannone di Picchio, with Homura's advice taken into account. Try out a scale model of a few loading mechanisms, both hand-held and from larger naval artillery. See which ones are easiest for you to handle.
-[x] Try integrating a loading mechanism into one of Mami's muskets, to see how your magics interact on a smaller scale. Note any issues or oddities and try to resolve them.
--[x] If all goes well, try it with Tiro Finale. Let Mami name the result.
---[x] If it's safe, have your chibi climb onto the cannon while you work on it. Invite Mami's chibi as well.
[x] Keep a metaphysical eye out for Sayaka on approach. When you sense her approaching, you an Mami give your soul gems to the chibis (To hide your signatures) and hide. When Sayaka arrives, have the chibi run up to her and as her where your mommy is. If Homura is willing to play along, have her wonder if these could be your kids.
-[x] Once Sayaka is appropriately disheveled or doesn't fall for it, pop out of hiding and hug your chibis. "Ah, hi kids! Did you miss Mommy?"
-[X]Sayaka Facefault
-[X] Once that's done, make sure the chibis are safe and set up the training.
-[x] Try and make sure Sayaka doesn't repeat the same mistakes Mami identified yesterday: In particular, tunnel vision and not considering approaches before taking them. Don't judge Sayaka, though - you're not infallible either, and there's things for you to improve on as well.
--[x] Within the rules of the spar, take it as seriously as possible - you'll need to if you want to have the slightest chance of success against Mami and Homura, and this is a learning experience for you too.
[x] After the spar, unwind and be a bit silly. Show Sayaka that you discovered yesterday that puella magi can shift outfits when they want to - kinda like how she recreated her cape, but on a bigger scale.
-[x] Cosplay as Shinki from Touhou, complete with wings.
--[x] If anyone specifically asks about the costume, tell them it's an obscure Touhou character. The bullet hell from earlier kinda put you in a mood.
No. of Votes: 2
Karnewarrior
MrLZRS

[X] Put your hand on Homura's shoulder.
-[x] Look her in the eyes.
--[x] "It's okay. I'm scared of her too."
No. of Votes: 1
Torgamous

[x] Uh. Hmm. I suppose I'd be okay with that if you are, Mami? Though if that round goes as quickly as I expect it will, maybe we can shuffle the teams for the next go around?
-[x] After all, you could really do with the dodge training almost as much as Sayaka, and the best people to get dodge training from are obviously Mami and Homura, right?
--[x] Also, you kinda use use grief to move around by instinct with your wings. Do they think it good to use tiny wings for this practice, or applying static grief to the inside of your outfit as power armour?
--[x] We'll decide whether to switch teams around once we see how things play out. What kind of ruleset will we be using, anyway? Mami, Homura, thoughts? Defer to the veterans' expertise.
[x] Keep working on the Cannone di Picchio, with Homura's advice taken into account. Try out a scale model of a few loading mechanisms, both hand-held and from larger naval artillery. See which ones are easiest for you to handle.
-[x] Try integrating a loading mechanism into one of Mami's muskets, to see how your magics interact on a smaller scale. Note any issues or oddities and try to resolve them.
--[x] If all goes well, try it with Tiro Finale. Let Mami name the result.
----[x] If chibis on cannon, take a picture with your phone and set it as your background.
[x] When Sayaka arrives, greet her as if nothing unusual is going on. Refuse to acknowledge the existence of the chibis in the background.
-[X] Distract her by using your Chibi body to offer the cupcake you made, with a cwute apowogy.
--[x] Dismiss the various experiments, except the chibis, and set up the training.
[x] Try and make sure Sayaka doesn't repeat the same mistakes Mami identified yesterday: In particular, tunnel vision and not considering approaches before taking them. Don't judge Sayaka, though - you're not infallible either, and there's things for you to improve on as well.
-[x] Within the rules of the spar, take it as seriously as possible - you'll need to if you want to have the slightest chance of success against Mami and Homura, and this is a learning experience for you too.
[x] After the spar, unwind and be a bit silly. Show Sayaka that you discovered yesterday that puella magi can shift outfits when they want to - kinda like how she recreated her cape, but on a bigger scale.
-[x] Cosplay as Shinki from Touhou.
--[X] Recreate your Chibi in the same outfit.
--[x] Telepathy Homura. You're practicing your Touhou cosplay, because reasons. <Image>
No. of Votes: 1
AramilOniasha

[X] Redshit Army
No. of Votes: 1
Kaizuki

[X]Make Chibi Doka with simulated personality. Present to Homu. Make sure she stays in range (no dissolving Dokas).
[x] Uh. Hmm. I suppose I'd be okay with that if you are, Mami? Though if that round goes as quickly as I expect it will, maybe we can shuffle the teams for the next go around?
-[x] After all, you could really do with the dodge training almost as much as Sayaka, and the best people to get dodge training from are obviously Mami and Homura, right?
--[x] We'll decide whether to switch teams around once we see how things play out. What kind of ruleset will we be using, anyway? No magic? Limited magic? Mami, Homura, thoughts? Defer to the veterans' expertise.
---[x] If Homura brings up not wanting Sayaka to copy her power, and Mami objects, try and smooth it over. Use telepathy if necessary.
[x] Keep working on the Cannone di Picchio, with Homura's advice taken into account. Try out a scale model of a few loading mechanisms, both hand-held and from larger naval artillery. See which ones are easiest for you to handle.
-[x] Try integrating a loading mechanism into one of Mami's muskets, to see how your magics interact on a smaller scale. Note any issues or oddities and try to resolve them.
--[x] If all goes well, try it with Tiro Finale. Let Mami name the result.
---[x] If it's safe, have your chibi climb onto the cannon while you work on it. Invite Mami's chibi as well.
[x] When Sayaka arrives, greet her. Act like absolutely nothing unusual is going on in the background. If she asks, tounge-in-cheek, tell her you don't know what she's talking about.
-[x] Get ready for training - have Mami explain the rules of the spar, and dissolve all the science experiments (including, sadly, the chibis). If Sayaka's still curious, tell her that you were practicing a few things yourself before she arrived.
--[x] Try and make sure Sayaka doesn't repeat the same mistakes Mami identified yesterday: In particular, tunnel vision and not considering approaches before taking them. Don't judge Sayaka, though - you're not infallible either, and there's things for you to improve on as well.
---[x] Within the rules of the spar, take it as seriously as possible - you'll need to if you want to have the slightest chance of success against Mami and Homura, and this is a learning experience for you too.
[x] After the spar, unwind and be a bit silly. Show Sayaka that you discovered yesterday that puella magi can shift outfits when they want to - kinda like how she recreated her cape, but on a bigger scale.
-[x] Cosplay as Shinki from Touhou, complete with wings.
--[x] If anyone specifically asks about the costume, tell them it's an obscure Touhou character.
No. of Votes: 1
Higure

Total No. of Voters: 23
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Torgamous said:
I know I've considered doing the Clear Seed thing on an active witch, but I'm not sure if I got around to suggesting it.
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We've ripped away all of Hildegarde's Grief until we managed to separate her 'Core'. Then what was left of the Familiars and Barrier kind of stopped moving and Hildegarde kept creating more Grief and trying to reconnect with her Barrier.

Then we poked it with magic and got mind/soul blasted.

If we leave a Witch's 'core' alone, I think it'll just keep producing Grief until it can repair its everything.

Maybe we could take a Witch's 'core', tape it to an Empty Seed (see if the Seed draws the Grief produced by the 'core'), and... keep it around? It'd be kind of cruel though, Hildegarde seemed to be agonizing.

Also dangerous.
 
Kyubey: No. Stop. This is not a good thing.

Sabrina: get... In... There! Ah! Mami, hit it again!

Mami: *axe kicks witch*

Kyubey: Oh dear non-existent gods, my slot, why are you doing this to me please stop.

Witch: GRAWWWWRrrrrrrrrr *shoop*

Kyubey: I have lived for millenia without experiencing such an act. Why? Why?
 
Kaizuki said:
Kyubey: No. Stop. This is not a good thing.

Sabrina: get... In... There! Ah! Mami, hit it again!

Mami: *axe kicks witch*

Kyubey: Oh dear non-existent gods, my slot, why are you doing this to me please stop.

Witch: GRAWWWWRrrrrrrrrr *shoop*

Kyubey: I have lived for millenia without experiencing such an act. Why? Why?
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Creeepy.

Also, What if we shrink a witch? We shrink it, we knock it out, we make it look like a seed and we gift it to the Incubator! They won't suspect a thing.
 
Kaizuki said:
Here's a thought: we can control grief, right?

Let's shove a fully functional witch into Kyubey's grief-slot.

/joke
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"KB I giv u Grief."

'OK'

"Here it is..... NOT!"

*Jumps into KB slot*

'NOOOOOOOOOOOOO'


"So this is the Incubator world, eh?"

*GRIEF HAX*


'Sabrina's somehow stolen ALL da Seedz!'

'Damn you Sabrina!'

*Shakes ear limb angrily but ineffectually*
 
A random thought: If the goal of this quest, before single update came out, was always to break the system/fix everything/do better than Madokami, then shouldn't the method for us to do so be independent of what wish/powers we chose? Clearly we should use our powers to that end as best we can, but it seems to me that there should be a reasonable path to accomplish our goal regardless of how well we apply our wish magic.
 
Balduran said:
A random thought: If the goal of this quest, before single update came out, was always to break the system/fix everything/do better than Madokami, then shouldn't the method for us to do so be independent of what wish/powers we chose? Clearly we should use our powers to that end as best we can, but it seems to me that there should be a reasonable path to accomplish our goal regardless of how well we apply our wish magic.
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Yeah, I've wondered about that too. Firn specifically noted that we could've had a high-tier brute power. How the fuck are we supposed to work with that? The only answer would have been a controlled Madowish.
 
Kaizuki said:
Yeah, I've wondered about that too. Firn specifically noted that we could've had a high-tier brute power. How the fuck are we supposed to work with that? The only answer would have been a controlled Madowish.
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Have you heard the theory that all superpowers are a specific manifestation of reality warping? Maybe we should put that to the test?
 
Kaizuki said:
The only answer would have been a controlled Madowish.
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I'd really like to believe this isn't the case because that's kind of boring, honestly. My hope is that something (maybe feathers, maybe something else) will also be incredibly off about this timeline as a result of the previous madowish, and we'll have to work with that to get things done.
 
Balduran said:
I'd really like to believe this isn't the case because that's kind of boring, honestly. My hope is that something (maybe feathers, maybe something else) will also be incredibly off about this timeline as a result of the previous madowish, and we'll have to work with that to get things done.
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I believe that with the resources available to us as Sabrina we should absolutely be able to bust the system without a madowish. I just don't see how a Brute power coild have accomplished the same in a reasonable time frame.
 
Balduran said:
A random thought: If the goal of this quest, before single update came out, was always to break the system/fix everything/do better than Madokami, then shouldn't the method for us to do so be independent of what wish/powers we chose? Clearly we should use our powers to that end as best we can, but it seems to me that there should be a reasonable path to accomplish our goal regardless of how well we apply our wish magic.
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Exactly!

Fixing things is fully within our power just from our basic nature. People focus on "kewl powerz" too damned much. Are they useful? Yes. Hell yes, even. But they're not critical to fixing things, because Sabrina could have wished for a cake, and still been able to fix things.
 
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I think if we need to break the system, the only thing we need to accomplish is to make meguca cooperate with each other. Break the isolation in the system, make it possible and good for meguca to work with each other instead of against each other, and we're golden.

Would a lot of problems remain afterwards? Yes. Could we live with that, would the world be a far better place then? I think also yes.

Grief powers will help. They're not the only path, but they're basically a great bonus to achieving cooperation by easing up on the sheer pressure that is lack Grief cleansing.
 
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