Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Redshirt Army · Oct 25, 2016

The Incubators reached the absolute end of the technological curve, then invented fucking magic to build more tech curve to follow.

Their civilizations most pressing issue is that entropy exists - they have no concerns other than the heat death of the universe itself. They have, for all intents and purposes, solved science.

Ugolino often compared them to the Time Lords, and that's not a bad comparison at all. If something is physically possible, the Incubators can do it, and if something isn't physically possible, they can probably do it anyway. They had a plan to capture and enslave an omnipotent god, and it could have fucking worked.

And I'm saying this as one of the main proponents of defeating Kyuubey. I say this not to discourage the attempt, but because we should go into this with our eyes open.

Make no mistake, even making the attempt is going to be ludicrously difficult in every imaginable way, with slim chances of success no matter how good our planning. But we are still morally obligated to try, and Madoka's wish means that it is not impossible to succeed.

Sereg · Oct 25, 2016

theauthor said:
A thought occur.

What would kyubey do once we start breaking the witch system?

Madoka wish allow her to break the system fast enough before kyubey can do anything about it. But we won't be able to break the system worldwide(or even just a country) without kyubey noticing it.

Why not?Why do you think we have this limitation? Timestop solves that problem.

EDIT:^ Indeed. That's why I've been saying that those who say my ideas won't be allwed because they are "win buttons that solve the game" have completely underestimated the Incubators and we need that kind of power to even stand a chance.

AuraTwilight · Oct 25, 2016

Redshirt Army said:
The Incubators reached the absolute end of the technological curve, then invented fucking magic to build more tech curve to follow.

Their civilizations most pressing issue is that entropy exists - they have no concerns other than the heat death of the universe itself. They have, for all intents and purposes, solved science.

Ugolino often compared them to the Time Lords, and that's not a bad comparison at all. If something is physically possible, the Incubators can do it, and if something isn't physically possible, they can probably do it anyway. They had a plan to capture and enslave an omnipotent god, and it could have fucking worked.

And I'm saying this as one of the main proponents of defeating Kyuubey. I say this not to discourage the attempt, but because we should go into this with our eyes open.

Make no mistake, even making the attempt is going to be ludicrously difficult in every imaginable way, with slim chances of success no matter how good our planning. But we are still morally obligated to try, and Madoka's wish means that it is not impossible to succeed.

Which is why, for narrative quality, their sense of ethics and personal restraint has to be an actually meaningful limitation, and not just "something they do until it's inconvenient. DROP THE NUKES LOL".

Redshirt Army · Oct 25, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
Which is why, for narrative quality, their sense of ethics and personal restraint has to be an actually meaningful limitation, and not just "something they do until it's inconvenient. DROP THE NUKES LOL".

At the present moment, the Incubator doesn't need to break its rules to destroy us. It's already applying pressure to us through the means it has available, and I expect that to continue to steadily increase until things start breaking, because of the position we put ourselves in.

If and when we actually begin succeeding against the Incubators, we'll see how thorough their sense of restraint really is.

Sereg · Oct 25, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
Which is why, for narrative quality, their sense of ethics and personal restraint has to be an actually meaningful limitation, and not just "something they do until it's inconvenient. DROP THE NUKES LOL".

Hypothetical Incubators with absolutely no restraint would not have been physically capable of stopping Madokami or Humucifer, so this does not follow.

EDIT: Besides, we've already seen that their sense of restraint isn't very meaningful at all on screen.

Onmur · Oct 25, 2016

Homura asks the serious question.

*Sits down in front of Sabrina*

"Sabrina?"

"Yes?"

"Why do you hug me so much?"

"..."

*Shifts awkwardly*

"Homura... You think I've given you a lot of hugs?"

"Well... yes?"

"Homura, Homura, Homura... did you know I have given you seven hugs since I met you?"

"Yes... I'm- I'm not complaining, just..."

"You're a tad uncomfortable with hugs."

*Nods*

*Sips tea*

"... In comparison, I've hugged Mami a hundred and forty two times."

*SCREEEEEEEECH*

"You OK there?"

*Crosses arms protectively*

"Y... Y... Y-yes."

*Laughs* "Don't worry Homura, I'm not some hug monster that's gonna force my hugs onto you. Much less try to sleep on the same bed~"

"S-s-same... b-b-buh?"

"Did you know Mami hogs the blankets?"

"... I must go."

*Gears grinding*

*Vanishes*

*Chuckles*

*Hugs Sabrina from behind*

"A hundred and forty three now?"

*Nuzzles Mami's cheek*

"Thereabouts."

"Do I... do I really hog the blankets?"

*Stops*

*Breaks hug*

*Sits up straight*

*Serious tone*

"Please take a seat, Mami. We need to have a talk."

*Gulps*

Redshirt Army · Oct 25, 2016

Sereg said:
Hypothetical Incubators with absolutely no restraint would not have been physically capable of stopping Madokami or Humucifer, so this does not follow.

To be fair, the Incubators were physically incapable of stopping Madokami and Homucifer. Through painstaking effort, they were able to build a bridge to the next level... but as soon as Homura opened up that can of whoopass, they were just done.

They have absolute mastery of the material, but those two are conceptual forces. It's another level entirely. One we have access to, if Dedolere is any indication.

Sereg · Oct 25, 2016

Redshirt Army said:
To be fair, the Incubators were physically incapable of stopping Madokami and Homucifer. Through painstaking effort, they were able to build a bridge to the next level... but as soon as Homura opened up that can of whoopass, they were just done.

They have absolute mastery of the material, but those two are conceptual forces. It's another level entirely.

That's exactly my point. The Incubators have been beaten twice and no lack of restraint could have won them those battles. As such, completely unrestrained Incubators can be beaten.

bird_poison · Oct 25, 2016

Sereg said:
That's exactly my point. The Incubators have been beaten twice and no lack of restraint could have won them those battles. As such, completely unrestrained Incubators can be beaten.

But we need overwhelming firepower of the meta kind and the element of surprise. We sorely lack the former, and struggle to maintain a semblance of the latter.

AuraTwilight · Oct 25, 2016

Sereg said:
Hypothetical Incubators with absolutely no restraint would not have been physically capable of stopping Madokami or Humucifer, so this does not follow.

EDIT: Besides, we've already seen that their sense of restraint isn't very meaningful at all on screen.

If they really wanted to, Kyubey (assuming he really is a Time Lord-esque entity) could've Killsat Madoka before she finished her wish. They clearly show some effort of ethical consideration because Kyubey doesn't cancel Madoka's wish nor does he try to impede her or talk her out of it (He does question it, but it's more out of genuine astonishment than out of any attempt to coax her thinking).

Whether he's unable or unwilling, Kyubey did not try to stop Madoka's ascension once he knew it was beginning, nor does Kyubey, say, break his usual rule of not suggesting wishes to be like "Yo Madoka your Potential is literally STUPID FAT. Let me tell you all the shit, and help you draft up a wish that solves everything for everyone, because that benefits my own goals and your personality file shows that's what you'd sincerely want."

Either way, Kyubey is not free to act however he pleases. If he doesn't have physical limits, he has mental ones that are just as insurmountable. Otherwise Kyubey is effectively omniscient and omnipotent save for the intervention of literal gods, and that's not an enemy Sabrina can reasonably counter.

And Firn is a good writer, so fuck that.

Sereg · Oct 25, 2016

bird_poison said:
But we need overwhelming firepower of the meta kind and the element of surprise. We sorely lack the former, and struggle to maintain a semblance of the latter.

Says who? We have a Madokami scale wish on our side. That is practically the definition of having "overwhelming firepower". And as i've been trying to say, the reason for our problems with the latter are due to our own misplaced restraint.

Sereg · Oct 25, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
If they really wanted to, Kyubey (assuming he really is a Time Lord-esque entity) could've Killsat Madoka before she finished her wish.

Which would have gone against his own goals. He'd been trying to get her to wish the entire time, so this isn't a valid argument.

They clearly show some effort of ethical consideration because Kyubey doesn't cancel Madoka's wish nor does he try to impede her or talk her out of it (He does question it, but it's more out of genuine astonishment than out of any attempt to coax her thinking).

Whether he's unable or unwilling, Kyubey did not try to stop Madoka's ascension once he knew it was beginning, nor does Kyubey, say, break his usual rule of not suggesting wishes to be like "Yo Madoka your Potential is literally STUPID FAT. Let me tell you all the shit, and help you draft up a wish that solves everything for everyone, because that benefits my own goals and your personality file shows that's what you'd sincerely want."

The girl grants her own wish. Madokami was already effectively omnipotent before Kyuubey had a clue what was happening.

Either way, Kyubey is not free to act however he pleases. If he doesn't have physical limits, he has mental ones that are just as insurmountable. Otherwise Kyubey is effectively omniscient and omnipotent save for the intervention of literal gods, and that's not an enemy Sabrina can reasonably counter.

And Firn is a good writer, so fuck that.

We are an intervention of a literal god, so this is irrelevant.

bird_poison · Oct 25, 2016

Sereg said:
Says who? We have a Madokami scale wish on our side. That is practically the definition of having "overwhelming firepower".

I'd rather test that theory before starting "operation genocide the incubators". If that wish is on our side, I fail to see it at the moment.

Sereg said:
And as i've been trying to say, the reason for our problems with the latter are due to our own misplaced restraint.

The reasons are irrelevant. The reality is that the Incubator knows we don't like it, and knows we work against its goal on the small scale.

AuraTwilight · Oct 25, 2016

Sereg said:
Which would have gone against his own goals. He'd been trying to get her to wish the entire time, so this isn't a valid argument.

Kyubey wants Madoka to wish so he can gather her energy. A wish that negates huge energy-gains from the timeline retroactively, to the point that she wouldn't have even made her wish, is a stupendous net-loss. He had to know that. It's a perfectly valid argument.

The girl grants her own wish. Madokami was already effectively omnipotent before Kyuubey had a clue what was happening.

Yes, but he's facilitating the process. We don't know if he can cancel or if you can shoot a bitch in the head mid-wish. It's possible he didn't try because he knew it wouldn't of worked, but the absence of such an attempt is still suspicious.

We are an intervention of a literal god, so this is irrelevant.

This has not yet been proven.

Torgamous · Oct 25, 2016

Sereg said:
Says who? We have a Madokami scale wish on our side.

You wouldn't happen to know how to get in contact with it? Because it looks very much like we only have grief control up to a hundred meters away from us. If we've had phenomenal cosmic power in our back pocket the whole time I would like to access it.

Onmur · Oct 25, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
We don't know if he can cancel or if you can shoot a bitch in the head mid-wish.

But how would shooting a bitch stop Madoka from finishing her Wish?

Torgamous said:
You wouldn't happen to know how to get in contact with it? Because it looks very much like we only have grief control up to a hundred meters away from us. If we've had phenomenal cosmic power in our back pocket the whole time I would like to access it.

[Q] Check back pocket.
-[Q] Gasp! There's a feather there!

bird_poison · Oct 25, 2016

@Torgamous, @Sereg, @AuraTwilight, can we discuss this after we have punched the inverse ballerina? I believe we lack enough evidence on our own role to reach concensus.

AuraTwilight · Oct 25, 2016

...Who's the inverse ballerina?

RexHeller · Oct 25, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
...Who's the inverse ballerina?

Wally.

UbeOne · Oct 25, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
...Who's the inverse ballerina?

Walpurgisnacht.

Edit: I blame the

who can slow time.

TheEyes · Oct 25, 2016

Look, obviously if we're going to become a Madokami-level threat we need to have a few tamed Witches in our back pocket first. I mean, even Law of Cycles Madoka had a pair of pet Witches (Bebe, Sayaka) around to act as secretaries, and she actually had full access to all her godly powers. We just need to take the concept of pet Witches and scale it up to include every Grief Seed currently on Earth, then use them as our zombie army to invade the Incubator homeworld and free all the Seeds that the Incubators are using to power their Anti-Entropy device, creating an Infinite Army of Brain Damage.

Sereg · Oct 25, 2016

bird_poison said:
I'd rather test that theory before starting "operation genocide the incubators". If that wish is on our side, I fail to see it at the moment.

Madokami's "fix everything" would include the completion of our goals, so yes, it's on our side.

The reasons are irrelevant. The reality is that the Incubator knows we don't like it, and knows we work against its goal on the small scale.

The reasons are relevant because we can remove them the very instant we decide to.

AuraTwilight said:
Kyubey wants Madoka to wish so he can gather her energy. A wish that negates huge energy-gains from the timeline retroactively, to the point that she wouldn't have even made her wish, is a stupendous net-loss. He had to know that. It's a perfectly valid argument.

He dd not know what she was wishing for beforehand. That is shown. So it's not a valid argument.

Yes, but he's facilitating the process. We don't know if he can cancel or if you can shoot a bitch in the head mid-wish. It's possible he didn't try because he knew it wouldn't of worked, but the absence of such an attempt is still suspicious.

There is no mid-wish. There is only mid-stating the wish. Once the girl has decided to state the wish, it's completed before she even opens her mouth. A wish is a thought, not a statement.

This has not yet been proven.

True, but it has been proven that that power is on our side. Besides. I don't have to prove it. The burden of proof is on you. You're the one making the claim that it is impossible for an unrestrained Incubator to be beaten, so you have to prove it.

Torgamous said:
You wouldn't happen to know how to get in contact with it? Because it looks very much like we only have grief control up to a hundred meters away from us. If we've had phenomenal cosmic power in our back pocket the whole time I would like to access it.

We do not only have grief control up to a hundred meters away from us. That power would not have allowed a single witchy grief effect. We have the ability to use grief to copy any ability used by any hypothetical witch. As such, we have almost every power. The only time we tested a new power I said we should have, it succeeded better than I thought it would. As such, all we have to do is start voting to use the powers we would need for such goals.

Sereg · Oct 25, 2016

bird_poison said:
@Torgamous, @Sereg, @AuraTwilight, can we discuss this after we have punched the inverse ballerina? I believe we lack enough evidence on our own role to reach concensus.

No, because I believe that by then, it would be too late and we would probably have lost the game.

AuraTwilight · Oct 25, 2016

Sereg said:
He dd not know what she was wishing for beforehand. That is shown. So it's not a valid argument.

There is a non-zero amount of time before she starts wishing and before her wish completes in activating. They had a full verbal back and forth before "Grant my wish, Incubator!" If that's not time for him to snipe her with his Omega Civilization Supertech, then how the fuck is he concerned with Heat Death?

There is no mid-wish. There is only mid-stating the wish. Once the girl has decided to state the wish, it's completed before she even opens her mouth. A wish is a thought, not a statement.

That sure is a lot of fanon if yours, Sereg. Too bad none of that matters. Her wish didn't activate until she finished stating her intent. The Incubators are somehow involved in the process non-trivially.

True, but it has been proven that that power is on our side. Besides. I don't have to prove it. The burden of proof is on you. You're the one making the claim that it is impossible for an unrestrained Incubator to be beaten, so you have to prove it.

No, the burden of proof is on you for the following: 1) That the wish is working directly for us beyond something already completed like "Dump Sabrina with all the canon info", 2) demonstrate that Sabrina's power is on par with Madokami and that our purpose isn't satisfied by more lower tiers of power like social linking, 3) Demonstrate that Kyubey would disregard any and all of his ethics for Sabrina's interference, and 4) Demonstrate that Sabrina can defeat an Omega Point civilization that can literally imprison deities.

The Incubators can literally capture gods. My 'burden of proof' has already been satisfied. If they can interfere with a transcendent, omnipresent, atemporal being that exists outside of the laws of the universe, they can fuck over a teenage girl with a hax superpower limited to an 100m range.

I mean, shit, take away Kyubey's sense of restraint and it'd be easy as "Vaporize Mami's apartment complex while Sabrina is sleeping."

Sereg · Oct 25, 2016

AuraTwilight said:
There is a non-zero amount of time before she starts wishing and before her wish completes in activating. They had a full verbal back and forth before "Grant my wish, Incubator!" If that's not time for him to snipe her with his Omega Civilization Supertech, then how the fuck is he concerned with Heat Death?

See below.

That sure is a lot of fanon if yours, Sereg.

It's not fanon at all. It's what wish means.

Google

Too bad none of that matters. Her wish didn't activate until she finished stating her intent. The Incubators are somehow involved in the process non-trivially.

Wrong. We only see her wish activate then. The fact that it has been completed beforehand does not require visual glowy stuff. You have no proof that Madoka wasn't omnipotent before opening her mouth, so you can't claim that you have proof that the Incubators were only stopped by ethics.

No, the burden of proof is on you for the following: 1) That the wish is working directly for us beyond something already completed like "Dump Sabrina with all the canon info",

I don't have to prove that at all. The wish did/has done what is necessary for us to be able to beat the Incubators. Whether it is still active or it has already finished making the Incubators beatable is irrelevant.

2) demonstrate that Sabrina's power is on par with Madokami and that our purpose isn't satisfied by more lower tiers of power like social linking,

Again, I don't have to prove that at all. I've already proven that Madoami level power is defying the Incubators. How much of that power is our own, personal power is irrelevant to this discussion.

3) Demonstrate that Kyubey would disregard any and all of his ethics for Sabrina's interference,

I don't have to prove that at all, because that is not what was being claimed. I was claiming that you have no proof that if Kyuubey had no ethics, we wouldn't be able to stop him. Also, earlier, I was claiming that you have no proof that he has as many ethics as you claim and I in fact proved that some of the ethics you claim he has were never owned by him in the first place.

and 4) Demonstrate that Sabrina can defeat an Omega Point civilization that can literally imprison deities.

Again, I don't have to prove this at all (at least, not for this discussion). All I said was that you have no proof that they are impossible to beat by anything imaginable.

The Incubators can literally capture gods.

Rebellion actually proves that they can't. Madokami smashed open the prison from the inside as soon as she decided to. Which proves that they were not able to contain her.

My 'burden of proof' has already been satisfied. If they can interfere with a transcendent, omnipresent, atemporal being that exists outside of the laws of the universe, they can fuck over a teenage girl with a hax superpower limited to an 100m range.

Again, not what Iwas asking to be proven.

I mean, shit, take away Kyubey's sense of restraint and it'd be easy as "Vaporize Mami's apartment complex while Sabrina is sleeping."

Yes, he can. And I'm saying he probably will, when he wants to.

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