Puchi Magi Adfligo Systema?
Puella Chibi Everyday Life?

Magical Girl 'The System Broke but in a Weird Way'?

Nagisa vs. Cheese Shop Cashier (either every future chapter includes a part about Nagisa buying cheese, or Nagisa and Shop Cashier never appear again)?

...

I don't know, I just wanted chibis.



"Behold," says Chibi Mami to Chibi Sabrina and Chibi Sayaka.

"OK," nods Chibi Sayaka.

"Always."

Chibi Mami
goes on: "I shall create a clone of myself, but not just a clone."

A torrent of ribbons emerge from Chibi Mami's body.

"I create... a Chibi version of myself!"

All the ribbons pool up to form...

A Chibi Mami Clone!

... Which looks exactly like Chibi Mami.

"OH MY GOSH IT'S SO CUTE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" squeals Chibi Sabrina hugging the Chibi Mami Clone.

Chibi Mami preens.

Chibi Sayaka frowns. "But they both look the same?"

"What are you talking about can't you see how chibi and cute this is?"
asks Chibi Sabrina shoving the Chibi Mami Clone in front of Chibi Sayaka's face.

Chibi Sayaka backs away from Chibi Sabrina, looking at both Chibi Mamis carefully before declaring: "They look exactly the same."

Chibi Sabrina
, Chibi Mami and Chibi Mami Clone look at each other, before answering Chibi Sayaka in unison.

"You're weird."
 
Puella Chibi Everyday Life?

Magical Girl 'The System Broke but in a Weird Way'?

Nagisa vs. Cheese Shop Cashier (either every future chapter includes a part about Nagisa buying cheese, or Nagisa and Shop Cashier never appear again)?

...

I don't know, I just wanted chibis.



"Behold," says Chibi Mami to Chibi Sabrina and Chibi Sayaka.

"OK," nods Chibi Sayaka.

"Always."

Chibi Mami
goes on: "I shall create a clone of myself, but not just a clone."

A torrent of ribbons emerge from Chibi Mami's body.

"I create... a Chibi version of myself!"

All the ribbons pool up to form...

A Chibi Mami Clone!

... Which looks exactly like Chibi Mami.

"OH MY GOSH IT'S SO CUTE EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!" squeals Chibi Sabrina hugging the Chibi Mami Clone.

Chibi Mami preens.

Chibi Sayaka frowns. "But they both look the same?"

"What are you talking about can't you see how chibi and cute this is?"
asks Chibi Sabrina shoving the Chibi Mami Clone in front of Chibi Sayaka's face.

Chibi Sayaka backs away from Chibi Sabrina, looking at both Chibi Mamis carefully before declaring: "They look exactly the same."

Chibi Sabrina
, Chibi Mami and Chibi Mami Clone look at each other, before answering Chibi Sayaka in unison.

"You're weird."

A missed opportunity for Chibi Mami to make a Chibi Chibi Mami.
 
Sereg said:
No, he does not. He also says that they don't even understand the concept of tricking. As such, he's incapable of having a concept of avoiding it and thus valuing playing fair. We've also seen him tricking on screen. As such, it's literally impossible for him to have such ethics. Even if you have word of God, it's impossible to be accurate as it contradicts on screen events.

Yes, he does. He explicitly says he doesn't treat mankind like cattle and engages them fairly as intelligent beings, compensating them for their sacrifices and respecting their choices.

The point about tricking is very misleading, because he's saying he doesn't understand tricking, but he says he doesn't understand the emotional reaction to it. He's saying he doesn't value forthright honesty with a client and doesn't think hiding details invalidates the consent he acquires. He knows damn well what it is, he just doesn't think it really applies to his own circumstances.

He very clearly lead on Kyouko and knows it.

How he does it is utterly irrelevant. He kills people, therefore he kills people. Therefore, he's perfectly capable of lilling more pople if Madoka refuses to cooperate.

No, it's extremely relevant. His methodology is important, not the end result. He talks to people but he doesn't deliberately restrict their agency.

Irrelevant. Once is not zero times. Besides Madoka refusing to contract after Wally is an extremely extenuating circumstances. Only using isolation fields? Fine. Place every human in a separate isolation field and leave them there to die of thirst unless Madoka contracts.

It took a universe rewrite to make him consider it after something like 100,000 years of frustration and setbacks. I'm not particularly worried.

And he 100% wouldn't do that to the entire human race. If that benefited him he'd of done so already.

We know he's patient and you have zero evidence he would not have escalated later. (lo, oops, there goes your point. Once again, you have zero evidence and I have plenty)

He doesn't HAVE the luxury of patience in Rebellion, he only has one test subject to verify Madoka's existence in all of reality and won't ever receive a second. Homura is a one-time thing.

I mean he talks to potentials and manipulates them with their bonds to friends and families.

Nice goalpost-moving.

And he used it to his advantage, was perfectly capable of improving the situation, but didn't, deliberately made the situation worse and is perfectly capable of making more.

Exactly what could he have done? Bear in mind this idea that Kyubey could call in a drone strike or killsat is entirely fanon; the Incubator AI might not have that capability or authority, period.

It was dug into the wall and this planted. No one else has both the motive and means. It having been a character that was never introduced would be poor storytelling. And that means that your claim that he wouldn't drop witches is an assumption that defies the evidence.

It's literally our only case of a rehatching witch, and thus can't say for sure. What if EP3!Charlotte was a Familiar, and the process of growing up requires turning into a seed form, latching somewhere like a parasite to absorb more despair, and then hatching? We don't know.

Kyubey planting that Grief Seed makes SENSE, but it's shaky enough that I wouldn't use it in this argument as a data point.

There is no proof those differences existed prior to Homura's arrival. If you're talking about Kyuusuke's guitar, out of Universe, that was admitted to be a mistake. In-Universe, all it requires is for Sayaka to make a slightly different wish. "I wish Kyuusuke found a new instrument he could play that he enjoyed as much as the violin" and it fits perfectly. You have no evidence she didn't make that wish. In fact, parsimony makes it more likely.

It was never admitted to be a mistake; it was infact brought up as a point in the Madogatari presentation. And I can't provide wording, I saw this thing over a year ago, but recreations have floated around on the wiki that specifically shows multiple timelines and Homura moving between them.

So take my word for it or call me a liar, but I'd hope that I've demonstrated enough to prove my good faith and trust in this community.

Also, I'm not even going to deign "Sayaka wished Kyousuke played a different instrument" with a response. It's dumb.

Speaking to a single individual is an influence. The fact that he influences our culture is an undeniable, on-screen fact. Which means he's Kyuubeytruthing and that statement means nothing. The latter statement is also Kyuubeytruthing and contains no useful information.

Influencing one person by talking to them is different from reshaping a culture and you know it, Sereg. Kyubey outright refuses to do the latter in Tart Magica even when it benefits him to do so. By his own words, the whole of human history is the result of mankind's wishes, which they refuse to influence, advise, or suggest.

Kyuubey is demonstrated to be poor at threat assessment and sacrificing short term gin for long term sustainability. He'd accept the contract anyway, which would still make me right.

Cool but that's goalpost moving.

Higure said:
It's a natural human trait. Magic is the birthright of ensouled beings in this setting: They currently lack the means to reliably express that ability without the support of the Incubators, but it's still am essential part of them. Frankly, crippling the entire species (and any other magic wielding species that might exist) is quite comparable to Hitler's crimes...arguably worse, seeing as it has aftereffects that will last for millenia and accelerate the death of the universe.

It's a nuclear option more horrific than double matricide, and that isn't even faintly an option.

No, EMOTIONS are a natural human trait. Magic is the process in which emotions are transmuted into causal effects in violation of natural physics.

And given Madoka's personality and emotional intent, the latter of which determines everything about a wish, I wouldn't be too concerned. For all we know her wish just negates Kyubey-brand Bullshit Fuck You Grief Bomb magic and all of humanity become INALIAS!Style Fairies.

Still not something I'm advocating though. The point is only that we can escalate harder than Kyubey. He can start shit but we can finish it with a Madowish.

Blorp said:
Thing is, there's too much we don't know about how the Incubators use magic to make any kind of blanket statement either way. Hell, we don't even know if it IS "magic"; I vaguely remember something about how it's technology so advanced that it seems like magic to us primitive humies.

Uh, the magic of Puella Magi is 100% legit, reality-fucking magic that science and technology cannot explain or replicate. What you're referring to is that Kyubey devised a technological means of releasing the magical potential in human emotions into a reliably usable form.

More importantly, I don't think we're ever shown how much the Incubators depend on "magic" to survive (if at all), or whatever tech creates/uses/makes use of it, or what else they even use it for. We know next to nothing about how the Incubators live (or exist, or whatever), other than how they interact with humanity. In canon, we've only seen a few isolated cases of their application of magic, and that involves 1) sending Grief Seeds off to be processed in some way that combats heat death, 2) processing souls into gems, and 3) something something isolation field something something Madokami.

Likewise, 1 and 3 are not magic, but superscience. 2 is technically technology but involves facilitating a magical event with reliable results so whatever.

Also, re: @AuraTwilight, we can't assume that just because the baseline non-PMMM human universe doesn't require magic for anything, humans in PMMM-verse won't suffer from the sudden lack of magic. It COULD be true that humans would be 1000% okay without magic, but remember, the Incubators have supposedly been messing around with humanity since prehistory, and have been drip-feeding magic (and its direct and indirect side-effects) to certain parts of the population magic via contracts. And while I really don't like making the comparison, Kyuubey does canonically liken humanity's situation as being kinda like livestock to the Incubators, and livestock species have generally... adapted, in some ways, to being messed with like that, such that the sudden disappearance of the farmer's support tends to be rocky.
[EDIT:] Kyuubey also claims that without the Incubators either interfering or making contracts(?), humanity would still be living in caves. This raises a whole host of other questions.

Kind of irrelevant considering my proposed scenario was Madoka doing away with it via a wish. All bets are off because whatever Madoka wishes for, she gets without any stupid bullshit catches.

And contracts don't feed humans magic externally, it lets it out of us. We're the source.

tl;dr We don't know nearly enough about 'magic' as a concept, to gauge what messing with it could potentially do. Removing magic from the universe could either be VERY VERY GOOD or VERY VERY BAD for any number of species, ranging from "absolutely no one" to "just the Incubators (and whoever else" to "GODDAMN NEAR EVERYONE."

If Madoka wishes to remove magic from the universe without impacting the quality and safety of all emotional lifeforms, then that's what would happen. We've already seen her rewrite the laws of reality on a pataphysical level, I'm not concerned.

Sereg said:
If it was a natural grief seed, it would have dropped to the floor. It was planted at eye height and forcibly stuck in the wall. We can even see the cracks in the wall where the Seed was forced in. It's impossible for that to happen without having been planted.

Familiar is growing into a Charlotte. To do so, it turns into a Grief Seed as an embryotic stage. Grief Seed impales itself in the wall of a hospital so that it can feed on the sickness and despair of the patients inside and speed its gestation. Boom. Perfectly valid explanation.

Blorp said:
(Also, Charlotte has a very heavy hospital theme, which kinda leans toward the possibility that she witched out at the hospital.)

While Nagisa DID witch out at a hospital, it's not for this particular reason. Witch Barriers seem to have an extra dimensional axis where the closer to the 'surface', the more real-world elements there are in the Labyrinth, which phase out as you go deeper in. Charlotte's hospital elements phase out in the core of her layer and Octavia's barrier had train imagery when first formed that's utterly absent when she changes location. Also, Gertrude's barrier shows aspects of the condemned office building she's encountered in.
 
@AuraTwilight

I admit that Seregs proposed actions are a worst-case scenario of sorts, and certainly push the boundaries the Incubators have so far exibited in terms of overt actions.

However, can we agree that the Incubator isn't going to stop contriving scenarios to push Madoka to contract after Walpurgisnacht, within his ability to act, however narrow or broad that may be?
 
@AuraTwilight

I admit that Seregs proposed actions are a worst-case scenario of sorts, and certainly push the boundaries the Incubators have so far exibited in terms of overt actions.

However, can we agree that the Incubator isn't going to stop contriving scenarios to push Madoka to contract after Walpurgisnacht, within his ability to act, however narrow or broad that may be?

He does in both PSP endings where Madoka survives Walpurgisnacht as a human. Once Madoka's made up her mind, definitively and unambiguously, he cuts his losses because too much forced coercion presumably ruins the sincerity required for the contract.

So no, I don't fucking agree that this is a given. It might be, and we should prepare for it, but I'm not going to plan around explicitly non-canon information unless Firn demonstrates otherwise.
 
He does in both PSP endings where Madoka survives Walpurgisnacht as a human. Once Madoka's made up her mind, definitively and unambiguously, he cuts his losses because too much forced coercion presumably ruins the sincerity required for the contract.

So no, I don't fucking agree that this is a given. It might be, and we should prepare for it, but I'm not going to plan around explicitly non-canon information unless Firn demonstrates otherwise.

Hmm. I suppose I can understand that view, but the canonicity issues with the PSP game are well known. Also: While I haven't played the game, and thus will defer to the expertise of someone who actually has, do those endings actually explicitly say "and then QB fucked off and was never seen from again", or did they leave it open for a sequel or such with just a generic "happily ever after"?
 
Hmm. I suppose I can understand that view, but the canonicity issues with the PSP game are well known. Also: While I haven't played the game, and thus will defer to the expertise of someone who actually has, do those endings actually explicitly say "and then QB fucked off and was never seen from again", or did they leave it open for a sequel or such with just a generic "happily ever after"?

It's a bit more open in the Best End, but they do say that beating Walpurgisnacht has enough boons that the four surviving girls should be fine for like...years without fighting if they wanted to, removing all pressure for Madoka to contract. In the Homu End, Kyubey straight up loses all hope (figuratively speaking) of contracting Madoka because he can't apply any more pressure than her entire home town being leveled to the ground.
 
Responded in the other thread. I don't want to upset Firn. Sorry. I forgot that you don't like that post style. I get very pent up because I feel responsible for these characters and guilty, thinking that if we fail, it'd be because I didn't argue hard enough. Which, I have to remember, is a silly way to think.
 
Responded in the other thread. I don't want to upset Firn. Sorry. I forgot that you don't like that post style. I get very pent up because I feel responsible for these characters and guilty, thinking that if we fail, it'd be because I didn't argue hard enough. Which, I have to remember, is a silly way to think.
Do what I do and throw yourself on the GM's mercy.
 
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It's a natural human trait. Magic is the birthright of ensouled beings in this setting: They currently lack the means to reliably express that ability without the support of the Incubators, but it's still am essential part of them. Frankly, crippling the entire species (and any other magic wielding species that might exist) is quite comparable to Hitler's crimes...arguably worse, seeing as it has aftereffects that will last for millenia and accelerate the death of the universe.

A birdright that currently nets death and suffering is a gift that should be contained until the situation improves, if not erased at all.

As of the present, it is too dangerous, the cons are too vast. Earth is about to end in less than 2 months because of this gift, and given that terrestrial utility seems to be finite, I'd bet a finger something else will off us in the future if things don't change.
 
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Redshirt Army is Rin. Your soul gem color is Red, and you wear it on your headband. You have Green hair and your outfit theme color is Brown. Your motif is a Fashion theme, and your weapon is Rifle.

Red soul gem, the fashion magic can make Shirts, and Green and Brown secondary colours make for Army camouflage, reinforced by the rifle. :V
 
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Just got done with a grand re-read of all the story posts. Weirdly, the discussion moved along mirroring the parts I was reading -- especially with the Sendai war. Lots of discussion about that going on when I was re-reading Sendai.

Good to have it reinforced again why I love this quest. :D
 
Uh, the magic of Puella Magi is 100% legit, reality-fucking magic that science and technology cannot explain or replicate. What you're referring to is that Kyubey devised a technological means of releasing the magical potential in human emotions into a reliably usable form.

Gonna defer to you about magic as per PMMM, since it's been far too long since I've pored through the TV series/movies. I'm probably picking up the "technology so advanced that it seems like magic" thing from somewhere else, anyway.


Also lost track of this, yeah. Although Madoka would have to phrase it properly because she's kinda dealing with a jerkass genie here.

... if things ever do escalate to this point, I can kinda see Sabrina coaching her over this wish, and as the wording gets longer and more complicated, just going "look, pass me a pen and some paper, will you?"

Labyrinth surface features

Ooh, true. Come to think of it, Oktavia's barrier in Timeline 3 (crazy!Mami) seemed to have slightly different features as well- didn't its boss fight take place on what looked like a pop concert stage, rather than an orchestral hall?

Hmm. I suppose I can understand that view, but the canonicity issues with the PSP game are well known.

Yeah, the PSP game is best taken for its expanding on background information (how Mami developed ribbons into muskets) and its trivia (Italian attack names!). Its other claim to fame, the great big honking WHAT-IFs, should be taken as.... well, what-if scenarios/endings.

Barring the gag route (which is downright glorious) and the good(-ish) endings, much of the PSP game's conflicts with canon tend to turn out worse than what happens in the TV series, as great big "YOU DONE FUCKED UP" moments. The stuff I said about Mami failing to save a young child and witching out? That results in Madoka and Homura learning about liches AND witches in the first timeline. Puella Zombie Sayaka Rottingca ("Whoops, we couldn't find her lost soul gem in time to prevent mild decomposition, but I'm sure we can heal- oh shit, she woke up- fuck, no, don't go find Kyousuke- OH GOD NO")? Third timeline.
 
I can switch avatars if you want. As much as I'm fond of Hikari, we're not that much alike.

I still think Sereg was the Oriko this thread needed - needlessly over the top supervillain plans grounded in the desire to save everyone.

Do iiiiiittttt. :V

E:
Although Madoka would have to phrase it properly because she's kinda dealing with a jerkass genie here.

Uh, no. Wishes are fulfilled in both wording and intent.

Mostly because the Incubator only serves as a catalyst. It's the girls own emotions that guide the magic - in effect, once the process begins, the girl grants her own wish.
 
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Fuu is Enaki . Your soul gem color is Blue, and you wear it on your skirt. You have Blue hair and your outfit theme color is White. Your motif is a Book theme, and your weapon is Hammer.

Enaki?
 
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