AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
You guys realize "We'll build a wall and make Kyubey pay for it" was the plot of Kazumi Magica?
Shit.
Shit.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
but y tho
MAKE ASUNARO GREAT
- Location
- Germany
Agreement in full, Aura..there is only one tiny problem.
QB.
The lttle white rat , as you yourself said, wants the meguca to be isolated, lone and desperate.I wonder he does not arrange incidents for all MG famillies...oh, wait, Kyoko at least.....
Anyways, since he obviously can freely decide when to mindwipe and when not to.....
Mundanes are deniable resources.
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AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
He didn't fucking arrange Kyouko's family being dead. That was her and her dad's own fault. She made a wish without understanding what her father really wanted, and instead of talking to him, she went over his head and imposed her will on him magically. He was effectively cursed, as everything he said, random people would believe religiously. It was the ultimate violation of his morals, principles, and beliefs, and it totally destroyed him.
Kyubey had nothing to do with that.
Kyubey had nothing to do with that.
- Location
- Germany
Aura, he basically told her father about the deal and watched his meltdown.
A mindwipe would have saved lives.
I am suspicious about his motivation here.
Deeply.
LucidProp
Pocky Eating MafiaDoka
Kyubey never interacted with Kyodad.
Kyodad found out when he saw Koko take down a Witch, and then Koko explained. Kyodad did not take it well.
- Location
- Germany
Ah, Fanon misled me...
Still.... a mindwipe would have saved three lives.
He has done it for lesser reasons.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
No, mindwipes would not have helped. It just prolongs the inevitable because it's really hard not to notice that literally everyone you talks to believes everything you say 100% of the time after having lived years as a starving heretic.
- Location
- Here
This discussion of Kyuubey's ethics and constraints seems to be hung up on speculation; facts would be helpful. Maybe it would be worthwhile to have another conversation with Kyuubey, since people seem to agree that it is truthful, although misleading.
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
bird_poison
Knowing their wrath, unfettered and raw
- Location
- margarita
Your idea to make people agree...
...is to suggest we speak to the Incubator?
- Location
- Here
"Kyuubey, if you had the ability to do so, would you make threats in order to force a contract if you found a prospect with sufficient potential?"
"Kyuubey, do you have a specifically limited goal for entropy reduction/energy collection from this planet, or do you want as much as you can get?"
"Is there anything that could be offered to you which you would accept in exchange for not contracting any new magical girls? For not contracting a specific prospect?"
And suchlike. Avoid giving things away by talking about the incubator, not about us, or our friends, or anything but the incubator. Some of the potential answers to are valuable, and non-answers in response to some possible questions would be informative on their own.
EDIT: Hey, it worked out OK for my avatar
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Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
The problem with sacrificing one to save thousands is humans are not omniscient, and statistical probability.
See you can never say for absolutely certain that those thousands humans could not have probably lived anyways had you not sacrificed the one human, but you can say with absolute certainty that the one you sacrificed would not have died had you not sacrificed them.
In fact the entire idea that the thousands of humans are in need of someone to make the hard decision to save them is a logical fallacy in itself.
It is denying that they have agency of their own, and assuming that only a protagonist has agency.
Most if the times that people have decided that some people need to die for the benefit of a larger group, are the times when we read about them in history we recoil with "What could possibly have driven them to do something so monstrous?"
So whenever you come to the conclusion that someone must die for thousands of others to live, you should really doubt your thought processes that led to that.
For example you may come to the realization that your organs could potentially save the lives of several people on the waiting list for organ transplants right now and figure they might not live long enough to wait until your done with them.
However its statistically probable they could all hang on until someone else provides them with the organs, so you need not make a desperate sacrifice to save them.
See you can never say for absolutely certain that those thousands humans could not have probably lived anyways had you not sacrificed the one human, but you can say with absolute certainty that the one you sacrificed would not have died had you not sacrificed them.
In fact the entire idea that the thousands of humans are in need of someone to make the hard decision to save them is a logical fallacy in itself.
It is denying that they have agency of their own, and assuming that only a protagonist has agency.
Most if the times that people have decided that some people need to die for the benefit of a larger group, are the times when we read about them in history we recoil with "What could possibly have driven them to do something so monstrous?"
So whenever you come to the conclusion that someone must die for thousands of others to live, you should really doubt your thought processes that led to that.
For example you may come to the realization that your organs could potentially save the lives of several people on the waiting list for organ transplants right now and figure they might not live long enough to wait until your done with them.
However its statistically probable they could all hang on until someone else provides them with the organs, so you need not make a desperate sacrifice to save them.
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Karnewarrior
Leastmost of the Hanged Man Arcana
Wonderful. Then the U.G.O.L.I.N.O. is running properly.
we can rebuild him.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
The question we have to ask ourselves is this: Do we want to be Oriko?
The answer is no. That girl is CRAZY, and we don't have a Kirika to match us, anyway.
So SV can't be a hard girl making hard decisions.
But we get to keep our organs.
UbeOne
Daydreaming CPU
- Location
- Philippines
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That's because we are the Kirika.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Don't lie to yourself, we can't be Kirika until Sabrina starts looking like this:That's because we are the Kirika.
We are Oriko and Kirika? Have we been looking at the wrong couple to determine our parentage?That's because we are the Kirika.
- Location
- Stupid Lucky Time
Don't lie to yourself, we can't be Kirika until Sabrina starts looking like this:
*muffled Surgam Identidem plays in the distance*
- Location
- South Africa
Which would mean she didn't survive until adulthood. Just like I said. Besides. Kyuubey could just tell her that he won't stop dropping witches on her family if she dies before contracting.As for Sabrina, we can't be everywhere at once. Kyuubey can.
That much I'll agree with.
I do not feel confident to make that decision. "I wish my parents' minds were restored."
No, he does not. He also says that they don't even understand the concept of tricking. As such, he's incapable of having a concept of avoiding it and thus valuing playing fair. We've also seen him tricking on screen. As such, it's literally impossible for him to have such ethics. Even if you have word of God, it's impossible to be accurate as it contradicts on screen events.
How he does it is utterly irrelevant. He kills people, therefore he kills people. Therefore, he's perfectly capable of lilling more pople if Madoka refuses to cooperate.
Irrelevant. Once is not zero times. Besides Madoka refusing to contract after Wally is an extremely extenuating circumstances. Only using isolation fields? Fine. Place every human in a separate isolation field and leave them there to die of thirst unless Madoka contracts.
We know he's patient and you have zero evidence he would not have escalated later. (lo, oops, there goes your point. Once again, you have zero evidence and I have plenty)
I mean he talks to potentials and manipulates them with their bonds to friends and families.
And he used it to his advantage, was perfectly capable of improving the situation, but didn't, deliberately made the situation worse and is perfectly capable of making more.
It was dug into the wall and this planted. No one else has both the motive and means. It having been a character that was never introduced would be poor storytelling. And that means that your claim that he wouldn't drop witches is an assumption that defies the evidence.
So? It's precedence.
I know. It's just a show of the resources at his paws.
There is no proof those differences existed prior to Homura's arrival. If you're talking about Kyuusuke's guitar, out of Universe, that was admitted to be a mistake. In-Universe, all it requires is for Sayaka to make a slightly different wish. "I wish Kyuusuke found a new instrument he could play that he enjoyed as much as the violin" and it fits perfectly. You have no evidence she didn't make that wish. In fact, parsimony makes it more likely.
I'm going to need to see those to know wording.
Speaking to a single individual is an influence. The fact that he influences our culture is an undeniable, on-screen fact. Which means he's Kyuubeytruthing and that statement means nothing. The latter statement is also Kyuubeytruthing and contains no useful information.
Kyuubey is demonstrated to be poor at threat assessment and sacrificing short term gin for long term sustainability. He'd accept the contract anyway, which would still make me right.
Kyuubey says so himself. That having gotten Madoka's contract is more important that every human who will ever live on Earth.
Personally, I think being Oriko isn't bad. Then again, I would say that, wouldn't I?
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Gadjo
Doka
That really isn't his style. Kyubey's MO has always been emotional manipulation. Hell, how would he even drop witches directly on Madoka's family? Direct every witching Magical girl to Madoka's house in the moments they have before they're gone? But more to the point, he even says once that the incubators pride themselves on dealing fairly with humans. And hell, deceptive bastards that they are, they do. Kyubey doesn't force Sayaka to contract, Kyoko, Mami- he just finds them at their lowest point, and offers them something they can't possibly bear to refuse without telling them what they're really paying in full.
From a gameplay perspective? Firn isn't going to drastically change how a villain runs and operates after it's been established both in the original work and in his own quest that he's not a direct killer. He does his work from a comfortable distance, satisfies his bizarre morality. He's still evil sure, but direct kidnapping/ "fuck you I'mma drop witches on your house until you contract" would be so out of character it wouldn't even be funny. Hell, he didn't do that in canon either, and he got pretty desperate there.
Edit: More to the point, what are we supposed to do about it if by some bizarre chance he was doing that? The scale of the quest and our powers don't allow direct combat with an entire race more advanced than we can possibly fathom.
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- Location
- South Africa
Kyuubey has almost every grief seed that has ever been created. That's orders of magnitude more than he'll ever need. Also, he's planted wtches before and is therefore demonstrably in character and saying otherwise is being in-denial of canon events.
That isn't playing fair, by definition. They have proven that they do not play fair. Assuming they'll play fair is willfully ignoring almost every single thing Kyuubey does. If Kyuubey wants tocall it playing fair, his definition is meaningless and he effectively said nothing.
He panted Charlotte. Refusing to have him plant witches is what would actually be drastically changing how he operates and deviating from canon.
He did kidnap and plant witches in canon and so it has been proven that it is not out-of-character. Kyuubey was never that desperate in canon. He always knew he had Wally as an ace in the hole, so he could hold back. After Wally, we would finally see him desperate for the first time ever. He would then know that he was holding back far too much and must get orders of magnitude more extreme.
I've already proven that this is wrong. Madoka wished to fix everything. That means we already are operating on a scale Madokami. Because that's the level that Madoka's wishes operate. Saying otherwise is ignoring canon.