Actually my assumption was always that they needed the grief seed for a fair bit of power, and that they got gretchen's cus well. They're at bullshit levels of tech. They could probably throw the moon at her and call it a day.

I know it was just an example but I doubt that throwing the moon at Gretchen would do literally anything.

We also know that the mere transformation into a witch releases a burst of energy. It's not a far stretch that Gretchen the God-Witch of "fuck you, I win forever" just releases energy constantly.
 
I know it was just an example but I doubt that throwing the moon at Gretchen would do literally anything.

We also know that the mere transformation into a witch releases a burst of energy. It's not a far stretch that Gretchen the God-Witch of "fuck you, I win forever" just releases energy constantly.
Maybe, but we've seen real world weapons, not just magic, can be devastating to witches. Throwing the moon at her is the quick lazy option. When you have incubator levels of tech, you could cause some truly massive amounts of destruction, an amount I think even she couldn't withstand.

Now, with Ultimate Krimheld Gretchen, they're fucked, but that's the backlash on becoming a concept so it's on an entirely different level than the normal one.
 
Maybe, but we've seen real world weapons, not just magic, can be devastating to witches. Throwing the moon at her is the quick lazy option. When you have incubator levels of tech, you could cause some truly massive amounts of destruction, an amount I think even she couldn't withstand.

She's explicitly described as only being able to be defeated if no one ever suffers anymore. Kyubey ain't takin' her out. Containing her? Sure.
 
Eh, lots of poetics about witch descriptions, iirc Oktavia having "listening to orchestra forever" and such.
I'd have to go over them later to truly consider it, but for now that'd would just as well apply to loop 1 KG, which is kinda much for weakest known potential.

Several possibilities in that scenario at glance (that can be considered more or less likely due other options), really:

- They're not that greedy and already have what they want.
- Running on potential, they borrow all the potential in the new-born witch from the future. They still pick up seeds instead of asking puella magi to smash them because they use witches to provoke potentials to contract.
- They totes can gather energy from active witches, this just requires larger apparatus, which is not as costly as seeding the witches (if accepted as true, they might already do this with all witches with their invisibility capability)
- Can't do anything about KG that is energy efficient (!=can't do anything about KG). Possibly also being misleading to Homura with having "quota" refer to "however much they can get from humanity on earth" - no more humanity, quota filled.
- Different minds behind same appearance. QB-node there is distinct from the whole of the collective, even if just because of communication and thinking lag, and also surprised. Greedy deliberations shown elsewhere had more planning and oversight, and this node on earth is just lower level salesbunnycat who, mission complete, has to move it's ass out from the range of the megawitch.

Just knowing about how grief seeds and soul gems work would rule some of these out, of course, while others can be interfered to be unlikely with other scenes as well. Sadly, we get literal or psychosomatic headaches when considering trying to find out pretty often.
 
Last edited:
He literally brings up doing it for the sake of the world and how "the energy of the universe is diminishing."
Rewatching it now, and I did misremember, so I'll confess to being wrong on that point. I thought she asked him why he did it, and he replied with the vague "to save the universe", but he actually says (at least in the fansubs I've got) "Everything we've done has been to extend the lifespan of the universe."

He then says, "Madoka, do you know the term 'entropy'?" but it's important to keep in mind when dealing with Kyubey that this is a separate statement, and any implication that it relates to the first could be deliberately misleading.

No he doesn't, quote him.
Looking at it again, my memory was a little faulty. On the other hand, what he actually does say seems... downright incoherent. "Given your population and reproductive rate, it's clear that the amount of emotional energy generated by each individual is greater than the amount expended during its birth and growth." I'm trying to parse some sense out of that sentence, and the only thing I can come up with is that he's implying that there's some sort of conservation of emotional energy that we're violating. Which would imply that he thinks that the human race is a closed system, rather than gaining chemical energy from food.

Is this line clearer in other translations? Or is there some other possible meaning to it that I'm too tired to grasp right now?

Quite the opposite, he says he's hoping mankind will join everyone in the stars one day and uses this as an altruistic appeal to the future of humanity, and he also says in episode ten that he had no idea Gretchen would be so powerful as to destroy the Earth.
"Eventually even you humans will be able to leave this planet and join us." Implies that he thinks this will happen, but not doesn't take any side as to whether this is a positive thing, so it's a bit much to say that he's "hoping" mankind will travel to the stars.

"When that day comes, you wouldn't want to venture out into an empty, desolate universe, right?" Since this is a rhetorical question, it let's him weasel around the "no lying" rule (if it exists), since the universe is not going to be "empty and desolate" when humanity travels into space whether the Incubators are fighting entropy or not. If humanity goes into space, it will have to happen in the next 5 billion years or so (because after the sun expands into a red giant and destroys the Earth, it'll kind of be too late), and that's too short a span of time for there to have been any meaningful progress towards the heat-death of the universe.

"In the long run, this arrangement benefits mankind as well." Implying any benefit for mankind is misleading because they will be extinct within weeks. And Kyubey does know this, because...

"Madoka, someday you will become the greatest of all magical girls, and then the most terrible of all witches." Kyubey knows how big Madoka's potential is, which means he knows how powerful her witch is going to be.

Leaving this conversation in Episode 9 behind and moving on to Episode 10 and Kyubey's response to Gretchen's destruction of the Earth....

"I had predicted that she'd become the most powerful magical girl, but I never would have imagined she'd destroy the Walpurgisnacht with just one shot." Not sure how much meaning we can take out of this line, since one could argue that Kyubey doesn't "imagine" anything. It could also mean that Kyubey knew how powerful she was but didn't think she'd expend all her energy in a single attack (thus causing an immediate witchout). Consider also the follow-up lines: "And did you know what happened to her as a result?" "It would have happened sooner or later." Nothing in there suggests that he didn't know how big her witch would be.

"Naturally, after that, all that was left was for her to become the most terrible witch." Again, no indication that he didn't know this was coming.

"In this form, I imagine it will only take her around ten days to destroy the entire planet." Wait, I guess Kyubey can imagine things. Unless this is bad translation. You'd think he'd "calculate" the time it would take her to destroy the planet rather than imagining it. And does he literally mean destroy the planet itself, not just exterminate all life on it? Is she going to chow down on the crust, the mantle and the core? In which case, yeah, throwing the moon at her might just be tossing her a snack.

"Oh well. What happens next is mankind's problem, not ours. We've pretty much met our energy quota at this point." Bunny-cat is a dick.

So yeah, I'm not really seeing anything in there which implies that he didn't know her witch would end humanity.


I'm pretty sure "They're not fucking with stars within visible range of populated worlds so as to facilitate the evolution of a maximum amount of emotional life-forms" is a perfectly valid explanation.
But I don't see how fucking with stars in systems without habitable planets would prevent the evolution of emotional life-forms in the ones with habitable planets. Again, that's a lot of energy that's wasted where no living creature will benefit from it. And I don't think that it will interfere with their contracts, because even if a species notices that interstellar hydrogen is going missing and there's a lot of weird infrared where stars should be that could be Dyson spheres, no one's going to associate that with Kyubey. He usually allows people to assume that he's a supernatural creature rather than an alien, and doesn't go around talking about the entropy thing most of the time, so people aren't going to go "Oh my god, bunny-cat is making the stars go out!" Hell, with some misleading phrasing, he could make them think that it's being caused by the monsters he wants them to fight and turn it into a recruiting tool.



Maybe, but we've seen real world weapons, not just magic, can be devastating to witches.
Normally, yeah, mundane weapons can kill witches. But then you have Walpurgisnacht, which is somehow able to shrug off dozens of anti-tank rockets, several anti-ship missiles, and a stadium full of explosives, which should have been more than enough to destroy any normal target its size. How is this possible? No idea. Could be some sort of magical damage resistance that only magic can overcome, or it could be that Walpy is just far tougher than one would assume, regardless of whether magic or mundane weapons are used. And Gretchen is way, way stronger than Walpy. We have no idea what it can withstand.
 
Lement said:
Eh, lots of poetics about witch descriptions, iirc Oktavia having "listening to orchestra forever" and such.
I'd have to go over them later to truly consider it, but for now that'd would just as well apply to loop 1 KG, which is kinda much for weakest known potential.

It says nothing of the sort.

"The mermaid witch; it is in her nature to fall in love. Looking for the feeling that moved her so long ago, she moves with the entire concert hall. Her fortune only turns under the weight of memories and no longer moves toward the future. Nothing will reach her any longer. She will come to know nothing more. She simply allows no one to disturb her minions' playing."

All of that is totally, literally true.

The Narrator said:
Rewatching it now, and I did misremember, so I'll confess to being wrong on that point. I thought she asked him why he did it, and he replied with the vague "to save the universe", but he actually says (at least in the fansubs I've got) "Everything we've done has been to extend the lifespan of the universe."

He then says, "Madoka, do you know the term 'entropy'?" but it's important to keep in mind when dealing with Kyubey that this is a separate statement, and any implication that it relates to the first could be deliberately misleading.

If he says both "everything we've done has been to extend the lifespan of the universe" and also "We are trying to attain energy that defeats entropy" then there's nothing to argue.

Looking at it again, my memory was a little faulty. On the other hand, what he actually does say seems... downright incoherent. "Given your population and reproductive rate, it's clear that the amount of emotional energy generated by each individual is greater than the amount expended during its birth and growth." I'm trying to parse some sense out of that sentence, and the only thing I can come up with is that he's implying that there's some sort of conservation of emotional energy that we're violating. Which would imply that he thinks that the human race is a closed system, rather than gaining chemical energy from food.

Is this line clearer in other translations? Or is there some other possible meaning to it that I'm too tired to grasp right now?

He's saying something extremely simple and matter of fact. Imagine all the energy it takes to raise a human being. Every single speck of it, from the conception of the embryo to its...let's say 15th birthday.

The emotional output collected from them in even two weeks of a Magical Girl's life before becoming a Witch is so immense is dwarfs all of that trivially.

Holy fuck.

"In the long run, this arrangement benefits mankind as well." Implying any benefit for mankind is misleading because they will be extinct within weeks. And Kyubey does know this, because...

"Madoka, someday you will become the greatest of all magical girls, and then the most terrible of all witches." Kyubey knows how big Madoka's potential is, which means he knows how powerful her witch is going to be.

Uh, no, he also says that he never expected Madoka to take out Walpy in one shot, and is impressed at her ability to consume the planet in ten days.

Walpurgis is already the strongest Witch, and there's STUPEFYING MAGNITUDES between it and Gretchen. Walpurgis is not a fucking planetary, extinction-level event that will omnicidally wipe out all Earth on the planet. Walpurgis is at worst a natural disaster like Hurricane Katrina.

There's no comparing the two, and no data point to suggest Kyubey expected Gretchen as she was.

"In this form, I imagine it will only take her around ten days to destroy the entire planet." Wait, I guess Kyubey can imagine things. Unless this is bad translation. You'd think he'd "calculate" the time it would take her to destroy the planet rather than imagining it. And does he literally mean destroy the planet itself, not just exterminate all life on it? Is she going to chow down on the crust, the mantle and the core? In which case, yeah, throwing the moon at her might just be tossing her a snack.

Well, the planet will be swallowed into her barrier, so whether or not the planet is physically there is academic.

But I don't see how fucking with stars in systems without habitable planets would prevent the evolution of emotional life-forms in the ones with habitable planets. Again, that's a lot of energy that's wasted where no living creature will benefit from it. And I don't think that it will interfere with their contracts, because even if a species notices that interstellar hydrogen is going missing and there's a lot of weird infrared where stars should be that could be Dyson spheres, no one's going to associate that with Kyubey. He usually allows people to assume that he's a supernatural creature rather than an alien, and doesn't go around talking about the entropy thing most of the time, so people aren't going to go "Oh my god, bunny-cat is making the stars go out!" Hell, with some misleading phrasing, he could make them think that it's being caused by the monsters he wants them to fight and turn it into a recruiting tool.

Provide irrefutable proof that aliens exist within the light-year and they are fucking with the development of solar systems, and people will make that assumption before angels or fairies. Come on, man.

It also doesn't matter because energy is spent collecting this energy when they could spend all that energy on the Meguca project and get a more than 100% return. There's no point diversifying for other projects when they could just Meguca harder, they don't have infinite resources or man-power.

Also, they might be getting their practical operational energy from a more subtle and efficient source.

Normally, yeah, mundane weapons can kill witches. But then you have Walpurgisnacht, which is somehow able to shrug off dozens of anti-tank rockets, several anti-ship missiles, and a stadium full of explosives, which should have been more than enough to destroy any normal target its size. How is this possible? No idea. Could be some sort of magical damage resistance that only magic can overcome, or it could be that Walpy is just far tougher than one would assume, regardless of whether magic or mundane weapons are used. And Gretchen is way, way stronger than Walpy. We have no idea what it can withstand.

There's circumstantial evidence to suggest that Homura can never defeat Walpy because she was never able to the first time; she can rearrange the cards, but she can't actually change the deck. The month has to end with the same result, just like a clock always comes back to 12. There's no "13" to escape to.
 
Last edited:
There's circumstantial evidence to suggest that Homura can never defeat Walpy because she was never able to the first time; she can rearrange the cards, but she can't actually change the deck. The month has to end with the same result, just like a clock always comes back to 12. There's no "13" to escape to.
That's a little too metaphorical for my tastes. We see examples of different choices leading to different outcomes in the various loops. Sometimes a person lives, sometimes they die, sometimes they die in a completely different way than they did before. Sometimes they contract, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they witch out, sometimes they don't. There appears to be no set fate or predestination for anyone. Why should this not apply to Walpurgisnacht as well? (Homura didn't even fight Walpy in the first timeline. She wasn't a magical girl yet.)

Or, if we must use metaphor, then she may not be able to change the deck, but it's the order the cards are dealt that decides what the winning hand is.

Uh, no, he also says that he never expected Madoka to take out Walpy in one shot, and is impressed at her ability to consume the planet in ten days.
As I said, him not expecting Madoka to one-shot Walpy could just mean that he didn't expect her to spend so much power in one go, rather than that he didn't know how powerful she would be. Most magical girls don't blow the entire contents of their soul gem in one go and immediately witch out like that. Again, if Kyubey knows the magnitude of her potential, then shouldn't he know how powerful she'll be as both a witch and a magical girl? Or can he not get an accurate reading, and just knows that they're off the scale?

When he stated she would consume the planet in ten days, I didn't get the impression that he was impressed or surprised or had any emotions regarding it at all. He certainly isn't... y'know... bothered by it at all. Is there some nuance in his speech that implies surprise that doesn't come through in the translation?
 
There's circumstantial evidence to suggest that Homura can never defeat Walpy because she was never able to the first time; she can rearrange the cards, but she can't actually change the deck. The month has to end with the same result, just like a clock always comes back to 12. There's no "13" to escape to.

I know that there's a snide comment here about SV and biggatons, but I see no reason to extend Walpurgisnacht's weird "destiny" shtick from Homura's loops to the Incubators abilities to deal with normal Gretchen should they choose to. Walpurgis is inherently a narrative based witch. KG isn't.

They won't, of course, because Gretchen can't do FTL travel and thus won't bother anything of importance ever again once she chows down on Earth, so doing it would waste energy. But witches are vunerable to mundane impacts, there's no indication that Loop 0 Gretchen would have had any special immunities to it, and all pre-UKG Gretchens after that are simply more numerically powerful - enough mundane energy would fry them, and QB has energy for days.
 
Last edited:
To add to the above on walpy, there's PSP game canon win to consider.

And eh, close enough AT. Kyoko and Madoka, and Homura in a different timeline totally disturbed her minions playing before destroying her form, despite her "never allowing that".
If he says both "everything we've done has been to extend the lifespan of the universe" and also "We are trying to attain energy that defeats entropy" then there's nothing to argue.
It also mentions a galactic community humanity could find empty, which is so vastly removed from the scale of the universe that it shouldn't give a damn and raises question of what is the life spoken of in that sentence, and uses fuel as a metaphor for useful energy.

Plus, the very fact that we're discussing this....
 
The Narrator said:
That's a little too metaphorical for my tastes. We see examples of different choices leading to different outcomes in the various loops. Sometimes a person lives, sometimes they die, sometimes they die in a completely different way than they did before. Sometimes they contract, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they witch out, sometimes they don't. There appears to be no set fate or predestination for anyone. Why should this not apply to Walpurgisnacht as well? (Homura didn't even fight Walpy in the first timeline. She wasn't a magical girl yet.)

Or, if we must use metaphor, then she may not be able to change the deck, but it's the order the cards are dealt that decides what the winning hand is.

Right, but what did Homura wish for? What's the only thing in the loops that ever matter? What's the gear that makes them turn at all?

Madoka dies, and Homura is powerless to stop it. And so the world turns. Everything else is just noise.

She wished to protect her, but she didn't wish to change her fate.

Her Time Stop objectively stops working partway through the Walpurgis fight, around the time Madoka usually contracts if she hasn't already.

There's implications that Homura wished over her Potential and is fucked because she's trying to shout over everyone else's Agency.

As I said, him not expecting Madoka to one-shot Walpy could just mean that he didn't expect her to spend so much power in one go, rather than that he didn't know how powerful she would be.

Come the fuck on, Kyubey isn't that stupid. He's as effective an antagonist as he is because he understands how the girls think well enough to predict their general actions. You can't possibly convince me he didn't expect Madoka to decisively, definitively end Walpurgis as much as possible.

Also, Japanese grammar and syntax. He's impressed by the effectiveness of it, not her chosen tactic.

Most magical girls don't blow the entire contents of their soul gem in one go and immediately witch out like that. Again, if Kyubey knows the magnitude of her potential, then shouldn't he know how powerful she'll be as both a witch and a magical girl? Or can he not get an accurate reading, and just knows that they're off the scale?

Kyubey's "one shot" comment is in regards to Timeline 4 Madoka, not "You could wish to become God and do absolute anything you wanted, holy shit" Madoka.

When he stated she would consume the planet in ten days, I didn't get the impression that he was impressed or surprised or had any emotions regarding it at all. He certainly isn't... y'know... bothered by it at all. Is there some nuance in his speech that implies surprise that doesn't come through in the translation?

Well obviously he doesn't emote, but he does use a Japanese word that denotes being impressed or "This is extraordinary" that doesn't carry into an English word. It's a grammar thing.

Redshirt Army said:
I know that there's a snide comment here about SV and biggatons, but I see no reason to extend Walpurgisnacht's weird "destiny" shtick from Homura's loops to the Incubators abilities to deal with normal Gretchen should they choose to. Walpurgis is inherently a narrative based witch. KG isn't.

Er...yea, she is. She's the other component of the hourglass that is Walpurgis, and the center gear on which the constructed stage turns. She has religious and end-times narrative connotations, and explicitly cannot be defeated unless suffering is erased, as a concept.

She's a Witch embodiment of religious prophecy, and cannot be denied from it. Her witch form is literally a shadow that, upon closer inspection, is a bunch of black strings. The exact same strings binding Madoka and Homura during Kyubey's EP11 exposition regarding potential.

Kriemhild Gretchen is literally a giant mass of karmic destiny casting judgment over the Earth.

And eh, close enough AT. Kyoko and Madoka, and Homura in a different timeline totally disturbed her minions playing before destroying her form, despite her "never allowing that".

No, it's really not. Because when you disturb her minions' playing she gets fucking pissy. She's not condoning or allowing it at all.

There language is different from Gretchen. It's not "she won't rest until suffering is destroyed" or "She won't condone suffering to exist", it's "The only way to beat this Witch is for the world to already be heaven." Full stop.

It also mentions a galactic community humanity could find empty, which is so vastly removed from the scale of the universe that it shouldn't give a damn and raises question of what is the life spoken of in that sentence, and uses fuel as a metaphor for useful energy.

Plus, the very fact that we're discussing this....

None of that is relevant.
 
There is that theory that Walpurgisnacht is actually getting stronger every loop, since it would explain how Madoka and friends were able to beat it in the first loop when Madoka was at her absolute weakest and wasn't even a very strong magical girl herself.
 
There is that theory that Walpurgisnacht is actually getting stronger every loop, since it would explain how Madoka and friends were able to beat it in the first loop when Madoka was at her absolute weakest and wasn't even a very strong magical girl herself.
It's a neat theory, and it does solve that particular plot hole, but it doesn't actually make a ton of sense; it's not explicit or even implicit in-canon, and I imagine that Homura would have commented on it during the fight if it was happening.
 
There is that theory that Walpurgisnacht is actually getting stronger every loop, since it would explain how Madoka and friends were able to beat it in the first loop when Madoka was at her absolute weakest and wasn't even a very strong magical girl herself.

It's explicitly not canon. Madoka died beating Wally after Mami softened it up.

In the PSP game, Wally's level and stats are perfectly consistent and never waver or alter or grow. it's just that the board is set up in such a way that Walpurgis simply DOES NOT GO DOWN unless Madoka contributes. No one else has the firepower, period.

Even in the first timeline, Madoka probably beat it because she always had bullshit as a superpower. If we take the PSP game as literally as possible, she's able to snipe Walpurgis from outside it's range of attack for plink damage (seriously the bitch can make the sky carpetbomb arrows for her), and she has a minor Soul Gem purification/regen passive ability due to her wish to save Amy.
 
Both of those wordings use absolutes (never & can't), and one of those absolutes not being absolute universal inviolable is my point.

Just like me saying "Don't worry, I won't die." is far more likely a context-specific than general claim of immortaility.

There's little screentime on KG, but for her being thwarted...Homura shooting Madoka's soul gem as it goes completely dark - we do hear the name of every witch in every gem, and being shot and killed is definitely a defeat in my book.
Perhaps you could consider Madokami stopping the UKG, though depends if you consider KG essential part of that.
Or your own interpretation of "being contained" not being "defeated", which I don't agree with given the numerous eternal prisons in fiction (hm, kinda sort of what witch and her barrier is to magical girl.)
 
Last edited:
Both of those wordings use absolutes (never & can't), and one of those absolutes not being absolute universal inviolable is my point.

Just like me saying "Don't worry, I won't die." is far more likely a context-specific than general claim of immortaility.

Yes, except one is about the subject permitting an action and the other is describing a property of the subject regardless of its actions.

Bringing up earlier iterations of Kriemhild Gretchen is meaningless, also, since we've seen Witch Cards change between timelines.

There's little screentime on KG, but for her being thwarted...Homura shooting Madoka's soul gem as it goes completely dark - we do hear the name of every witch in every gem, and being shot and killed is definitely a defeat in my book.

Witch Cards don't really apply until the Witch is born, so abortion is legit.

Perhaps you could consider Madokami stopping the UKG, though depends if you consider KG essential part of that.

UKG is not Kriemhild Gretchen, despite fan nicknames. She has her own independent Witch Card and everything.
 
If it is legit, then that goes to support it being context-specific in a world with information time travel...But more importantly:
Bringing up earlier iterations of Kriemhild Gretchen is meaningless, also, since we've seen Witch Cards change between timelines.
...That's right, they do. Not many examples (poor seiyuku), but still.

In fact, I'd expect different witches from same magical girl with different wishes and histories have different, if perhaps similar, barriers and powers (Sayaka's powercopy vs healing, both still keeping same magic weapon and outfit much like Madoka did in canon throughout the loops).

It does mean that one particular KG need not be like the one from first loop...
...Or even the one from last loop, PMAS canon.

Hm, I'm unsure: Do we know what wish resulted in that KG you're referencing?

What powers and witch would result from a Madowish with "everything could be fixed"? I'm imagining repair-bot familiars, who don't stop tweaking humans till they fit a factory specification, for starters.
 
Last edited:
She wished to protect her, but she didn't wish to change her fate.
I was led to believe that the wishes in PMMM don't do that sort of literal genie monkey's paw thing. The girls get what they intended when they wish, it's just that many of them didn't wish for what they really wanted. (e.g. Kyouko wished for people to listen to her father, but what she really wanted was her family to be happy and prosperous again, Sayaka wished to heal Kyousuke but she really wanted him to love her, etc.)

Kyubey's "one shot" comment is in regards to Timeline 4 Madoka, not "You could wish to become God and do absolute anything you wanted, holy shit" Madoka.
Yes, I am aware. I just watched that scene a few hours ago so I could quote dialogue from it a few posts back. I was referring to Timeline 4 Madoka. Even at that point, she presumably had an extremely high potential (given that she could one-shot Walpy and became a witch that would destroy the world in 10 days). And presumably, Kyubey could sense the magnitude of that potential. Would he not therefore realize that it was in the "will destroy the world after witching out" range?

Well obviously he doesn't emote, but he does use a Japanese word that denotes being impressed or "This is extraordinary" that doesn't carry into an English word. It's a grammar thing.
Couldn't he deliberately use misleading grammar choices as part of the benign façade he maintains at all times?

Come the fuck on, Kyubey isn't that stupid. He's as effective an antagonist as he is because he understands how the girls think well enough to predict their general actions.
Again, we are talking about somebody who offered a wish of universe-altering power to someone who had every reason to hate his guts. And was taken completely by surprise by her choice, which was detrimental to his endeavors (even if not nearly as detrimental as it could have been if Madoka were a more vindictive person). He gets blindsided by Homura quite a few times, as well. Is it really so unlikely that he didn't predict that Timeline 4 Madoka would go all in on her first attack, rather than open with something more tentative?
 
Lement said:
In fact, I'd expect different witches from same magical girl with different wishes and histories have different, if perhaps similar, barriers and powers (Sayaka's powercopy vs healing, both still keeping same magic weapon and outfit much like Madoka did in canon throughout the loops).

It does mean that one particular KG need not be like the one from first loop...
...Or even the one from last loop, PMAS canon.

Hm, I'm unsure: Do we know what wish resulted in that KG you're referencing?

What powers and witch would result from a Madowish with "everything could be fixed"? I'm imagining repair-bot familiars, who don't stop tweaking humans till they fit a factory specification, for starters.

Not really. Octavia's Witch differs despite the same wish. They react to the psychological state of the girl as she collapses. I imagine wishes are significantly less relevant in comparison.

Madoka, meanwhile, is a fairly static character, who usually witches out due to overloading. Her witch will ALWAYS a Witch of Salvation.

The Narrator said:
I was led to believe that the wishes in PMMM don't do that sort of literal genie monkey's paw thing. The girls get what they intended when they wish, it's just that many of them didn't wish for what they really wanted. (e.g. Kyouko wished for people to listen to her father, but what she really wanted was her family to be happy and prosperous again, Sayaka wished to heal Kyousuke but she really wanted him to love her, etc.)

Yes, but A) Homura totally wished over her potential and who knows what that does, and B) Homura is less interested in Madoka being safe than being the one responsible for protecting her. The timeloop can't resolve because Homura can't move on and can't face the future. She's stunted. She's essentially already a Witch, hopeless and afraid of what comes next should she get what she wants. She's already strongly implied in the original series, such as bartering with Kyouko, that she plans to die after getting what she wants.

Homura totally plans to kill herself after Madoka no longer needs her. And things arrange so that Madoka never stops needing her. HUH. FANCY THAT.

Yes, I am aware. I just watched that scene a few hours ago so I could quote dialogue from it a few posts back. I was referring to Timeline 4 Madoka. Even at that point, she presumably had an extremely high potential (given that she could one-shot Walpy and became a witch that would destroy the world in 10 days). And presumably, Kyubey could sense the magnitude of that potential. Would he not therefore realize that it was in the "will destroy the world after witching out" range?

I don't think he can really measure that sort of thing. When your scale covers 1 to 10, 11 to 4958673459385475 are all the same number.

Couldn't he deliberately use misleading grammar choices as part of the benign façade he maintains at all times?

No, Japanee doesn't really work like that. It's inherently passive and rhetorical and he makes assertive statements. He's denying ambiguity when he doesn't have to.

Again, we are talking about somebody who offered a wish of universe-altering power to someone who had every reason to hate his guts. And was taken completely by surprise by her choice, which was detrimental to his endeavors (even if not nearly as detrimental as it could have been if Madoka were a more vindictive person). He gets blindsided by Homura quite a few times, as well. Is it really so unlikely that he didn't predict that Timeline 4 Madoka would go all in on her first attack, rather than open with something more tentative?

He knows Madoka is a saint who will martyr herself for a cause, and knows that SHE knows that the longer the fight drags on, the more innocent civilians will be hurt in the crossfire. She wouldn't be Madoka if she ever planned a second arrow. She wouldn't be Madoka if she saw a problem and planned more steps than the bare minimum to put the problem to rest.

Homura is an Out of Context Problem from another fucking universe, and Madoka's canon wish is a result of that butterfly effect. He can be forgiven for having his ass grabbed out from under him.
 
I'm not sure that the PMMM universe in general runs that thoroughly on narrative conventions from the inside. Like... the themes that Aura's talking about definitely exist in the work "Puella Magi Madoka Magica" as envisioned by Urobuchi, but I don't know if meaningful predictions could be made on the inside based on narrative tropes.* Walpurgis gets a pass because she literally runs on story magic, but I don't think Madoka and Homura are as trapped as Aura claims they are - they still have their own volition, and even Homura in her darkest moment is more than she thinks she is.

*Normally this is a pointless distinction, but we're running a quest character in that world, so how much events will follow PMMM themes vs. realistic consequences is a real question.
 
Last edited:
As a note for the argument between "Why aren't there Dyson Spheres in PMMM?" and the counter "The incubators wouldn't want some primitive beings to hsve a clue that other star systems are occupied." -- Visible matter only accounts for a small amount of the mass the galaxy should have, and while other galaxies being similar suggests a more natural phenomenon like dark matter and energy, there is still enough leeway in the calculations for the Milky Way to have a substantual population of Dyson Spheres spread out.

As to whether the incubators are telling the truth about grief combating entrope...

The incubators are not themselves able to generate grief.

They also don't understand the mechanism of where this 'free energy' is coming from.

... at best their claim of 'free energy' is an unverified profession of faith. It is essentially impossible to prove within science that the energy gain is not balanced by an increase in entrope somewhere in the universe without an extra-universal technology. (in which case entrope is not their problem anymore!)

Because even as improbable as energy Quantum Tunneling halfway across the universe is, its both more probable than breaking an essential fact of the universe and actually occurs under certain conditions - like near black holes.

And to magically confirm their hypothesis would require an emotional being to magically divine for them. Even then the accuracy of the answer may depend on the potential of the emotional being and the way the divination is performed.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure that the PMMM universe in general runs that thoroughly on narrative conventions from the inside. Like... the themes that Aura's talking about definitely exist in the work "Puella Magi Madoka Magica" as envisioned by Urobuchi, but I don't know if meaningful predictions could be made on the inside based on narrative tropes.* Walpurgis gets a pass because she literally runs on story magic, but I don't think Madoka and Homura are as trapped as Aura claims they are - they still have their own volition, and even Homura in her darkest moment is more than she thinks she is.

*Normally this is a pointless distinction, but we're running a quest character in that world, so how much events will follow PMMM themes vs. realistic consequences is a real question.

Well, it's a good thing that's not my argument, then!
 
Back
Top