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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Balduran said:
I'd say this is a pretty safe bet as there's no reason why the profits the Incubators reap wouldn't be put back into the universe-wide system as they're gained, and since the Incubators are so confident in their system saving the universe, I'd be willing to bet that removing them would cut our time down be a whole lot.
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I disagree. Humanity has had a very tiny lifespan relative to the universe. If even a small % of the time from now to heat death is because of the QBs activities, the lifetime-for-witches ratio must be gargantuan. If it's closer to like 5% then we have to be looking at hundreds or thousands of years per witch, I think.

AuraTwilight said:
To be fair, it's entirely possible that in the PMMM-verse, Heat Death is only so distant because of the Incubators' work.
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And if this is the case -- well, let's suppose 50% of the time from now to heat death has been generated by the QBs work during human race lifespan.

...

...

I don't buy it.
 
Only if we take for granted that A) Humans are the first or only species they began working with, or B) the method they use to extend the universe's lifespan doesn't make the universe seem older than it is or some stupid nonsense (but the Incubators are a Lovecraftian Horror so who knows)
 
AuraTwilight said:
Only if we take for granted that A) Humans are the first or only species they began working with, or B) the method they use to extend the universe's lifespan doesn't make the universe seem older than it is or some stupid nonsense (but the Incubators are a Lovecraftian Horror so who knows)
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A i think is definitely true. "Then we found you humans" -- quote from the dubbed anime. Idk tho, can't be sure. B... Yeah trying to science miracle workers is awkward rofl.
 
Kaizuki said:
the lifetime-for-witches ratio must be gargantuan.
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The turn over must be massive, considering the Incubators were fully content to call it quits after Gretchen (whose energy was only equal to somewhere between either almost-100 normal magical girls or ~4800, depending on how you assume Madoka's potential builds).

They could, of course, have another species to exploit, though iirc QB says emotional species are rare.
 
Balduran said:
The turn over must be massive, considering the Incubators were fully content to call it quits after Gretchen (whose energy was only equal to somewhere between either almost-100 normal magical girls or ~4800, depending on how you assume Madoka's potential builds).

They could, of course, have another species to exploit, though iirc QB says emotional species are rare.
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Where did you get those numbers? I had a far higher impression from the anime. It sounded like some fucking infinite timeline convergence, not just however many loops homura did.
 
Kaizuki said:
I had a far higher impression from the anime. It sounded like some fucking infinite timeline convergence, not just however many loops homura did.
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I agree that the anime makes it sound huge, but I'm not convinced it's huger than hundreds or thousands times the potential of a normal magical girl. Almost-100 came from the straight number of Homura's loops (so each loops adds one Madoka's worth of potential to the total), and ~4800 came from the potential being compounded each loop (so if loop one is +1 to the total and loop 2 is +2, then that's three Madokas during loop 2, six Madokas in loop 3, etc.).
 
Kaizuki said:
A i think is definitely true. "Then we found you humans" -- quote from the dubbed anime. Idk tho, can't be sure. B... Yeah trying to science miracle workers is awkward rofl.
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We know from the PSP game (I think it was the PSP game anyway) that alien witches are a thing.

Onmur said:
Fully emotional.

Even Incubators can have feelings.
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Specifically, the Incubators seem to have had a bit of a "what the fuck" reaction to Humanity, and probably earth in general, because everything was emotional.
 
Damn it! We totally should've have voted to make a Grief replica of Rochelle for Kyouko to ride into battle.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Counter-argument: A Madoka situation is fundamentally unique in any given Universe, as any lead-up to such a thing has Four outcomes: A) The cause witches or dies out long before the Madoka-counterpart reaches a noteworthy potential, B) The planet she exists on fucking dies as a result of the Madoka-potential's own Witch, causing the Looper to reset, C) B happens but the Looper dies, or D) the universe is rewritten.

A and B can be discarded, C is unlikely because any Meguca capable of getting as far as Homura did is statistically unlikely to fall before D, and D just means that every Madoka-tier Potential is the first one because of causality getting fucked in the ass.

Madoka is unique because nothing else is really ontologically possible.
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Or E) Madoka-counterpart makes a non-universe-rewriting wish but is prevented from Witching. Sabrina's endgame allows this, as would Madokami, as would someone killing the Looper then Madoka-counterpart. The last one, at least, is certainly likely enough for multiple Madokas to be ontologically possible.
 
Torgamous said:
Or E) Madoka-counterpart makes a non-universe-rewriting wish but is prevented from Witching. Sabrina's endgame allows this, as would Madokami, as would someone killing the Looper then Madoka-counterpart. The last one, at least, is certainly likely enough for multiple Madokas to be ontologically possible.
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That's so stupidly unlilely I don't even consider it. Madoka's enormously, stupidly high potential means she witches out pretty much instantly no matter what she does (And even then, she's going to witch out eventually anyway because she's a Magical Girl and her needs for cleansing will outstrip the available Grief Seeds eventually), and the Looper having to do this shit and fail like a thousand times leaves little likelihood of things ever changing because, like possibly Homura, in such a case there's a possibility that they can change events in their Loop but can't change its ultimate outcome because bluh bluh causality.

And also any possible scenario that's dependent on someone like Sabrina can be thrown out of hand since we're fundamentally unique.
 
Madoka's potential probably reached a point where it was in a positive feedback loop.

She gained more potential just from having a stupid high amount of potential; essentially, it reached a point where she had so much potential that that in itself was giving her more.
 
AuraTwilight said:
That's so stupidly unlilely I don't even consider it.
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I'm not seeing "ontologically impossible" here. Certainly difficult (but not "ontologically impossible") to happen by accident, but if keeping the universe running at capacity is so important then arranging for it to happen on purpose isn't out of the question. If the wish-granter destroys Madoka-tier soul gems as they're created, for example, then the only unresolved step is for the Looper to die first.

And you didn't even mention Madokami, which to me looks very much like one Madoka enabling subsequent ones.

And I said "Sabrina's endgame", not "someone like Sabrina". Control of free grief is obviously possible without Sabrina, otherwise Kyuubey taking our grief would be really weird. One of our goals should be to figure out how to do that, so people don't start Witching as soon as Sabrina dies. In Sabrina's lifetime we're probably not going to get past cheating with magic, but there is also evidence of the eventual possibility of a pure technological solution.
 
Eh, there's always the case where the high-potential Wishes to never become a Witch. Probably leaves them pretty weak, though.
 
Higure said:
Eh, there's always the case where the high-potential Wishes to never become a Witch. Probably leaves them pretty weak, though.
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Potentialguca meets Sabrina.

Sabrina: "Hello there, I don't think we've met. I'm Sabrina, you are...?"

Potentialguca: "I am... I am not a Witch!"

Sabrina: "..."

Potentialguca: "..."

Sabrina: "... Was that all?"

Potentialguca: "Yup! Bye!"

Potentialguca leaves.

Sabrina: "..."

Sabrina can't help feeling a little offended.
 
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Onmur said:
Potentialguca meets Sabrina.

Sabrina: "Hello there, I don't think we've met. I'm Sabrina, you are...?"

Potentialguca: "I am... I am not a Witch!"

Sabrina: "..."

Potentialguca: "..."

Sabrina: "... Was that all?"

Potentialguca: "Yup! Bye!"

Potentialguca leaves.

Sabrina: "..."

Sabrina can't help feeling a little offended.
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She's not racist! Some of her best friends are Witches!
 
thagguy said:
Madoka's potential probably reached a point where it was in a positive feedback loop.

She gained more potential just from having a stupid high amount of potential; essentially, it reached a point where she had so much potential that that in itself was giving her more.
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That's not how it works.

Torgamous said:
I'm not seeing "ontologically impossible" here. Certainly difficult (but not "ontologically impossible") to happen by accident, but if keeping the universe running at capacity is so important then arranging for it to happen on purpose isn't out of the question. If the wish-granter destroys Madoka-tier soul gems as they're created, for example, then the only unresolved step is for the Looper to die first.

And you didn't even mention Madokami, which to me looks very much like one Madoka enabling subsequent ones.

And I said "Sabrina's endgame", not "someone like Sabrina". Control of free grief is obviously possible without Sabrina, otherwise Kyuubey taking our grief would be really weird. One of our goals should be to figure out how to do that, so people don't start Witching as soon as Sabrina dies. In Sabrina's lifetime we're probably not going to get past cheating with magic, but there is also evidence of the eventual possibility of a pure technological solution.
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....yeaaa, without the Witch problem, Madoka herself probably wouldn't of been looped more than two times. I'm not even vaguely convinced. Madoka's potential was pretty much an entirely unique circumstance created by the system as it existed right then, the culture of Earth as it existed right then, the personalities of Madoka and Homura and the backgrounds that made them that way, and Homura considering herself so worthless, and Madoka so idealistically perfect, that you can't really deliberately arrange this sort of thing, and once the ball gets rolling, it's technically finished reaching its objective in zero-time, in which the Madoka-Potential either doesn't wish, or never existed.

Any wish that leads to a Witch or death gets rewound, any wish that cheats Kyubey out of a Witch either undoes their existence or isn't desirable and thus wouldn't be pursued.
 
AuraTwilight said:
....yeaaa, without the Witch problem, Madoka herself probably wouldn't of been looped more than two times.
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Hmm. True. Let's make it a hundred times less likely in order to account for that, leaving us with only triple to quadruple-digit Madokas before stars would normally stop working and still infinite Madokas in the fullness of time.
AuraTwilight said:
Madoka's potential was pretty much an entirely unique circumstance created by the system as it existed right then, the culture of Earth as it existed right then, the personalities of Madoka and Homura and the backgrounds that made them that way, and Homura considering herself so worthless, and Madoka so idealistically perfect, that you can't really deliberately arrange this sort of thing, and once the ball gets rolling, it's technically finished reaching its objective in zero-time, in which the Madoka-Potential either doesn't wish, or never existed.

Any wish that leads to a Witch or death gets rewound, any wish that cheats Kyubey out of a Witch either undoes their existence or isn't desirable and thus wouldn't be pursued.
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I'm assuming wishes are granted by local authorities, not Kyuubey, since the premise of this discussion is that we killed the Incubators. Humans don't want a Witch eating their own planet, and so should take steps to prevent that on their own, including but not limited to direct grief extraction or killing Madoka immediately upon completion of the wish. (Of course, not granting the wish is also on the table, but that would mean going back to arguing that keeping the universe as full as possible might not be worth murdering people and I've already abandoned that tack with LostDeviljho.)

You can't fabricate the starting conditions, but you can force a looper into creating a Madoka once a looper exists.
If a looper is identified and no Madoka is present, render timeline nonviable.
If a looper is identified and Madoka is present, eliminate looper and acquire wish.
 
Torgamous said:
Hmm. True. Let's make it a hundred times less likely in order to account for that, leaving us with only triple to quadruple-digit Madokas before stars would normally stop working and still infinite Madokas in the fullness of time.
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My point still stands. A Madoka would either be saved before it got to that point, die/turn into a witch/disappear into the Law of Cycles, or Retgone itself. Only Group B is viable.

In Group B, all except the third subset (maybe) causes more Looping.

Really, Group B is the only one useful to anyone interested in exploiting it, but only Group A and C are acceptable outcomes that will actually exist when the dust clears.

I'm assuming wishes are granted by local authorities, not Kyuubey, since the premise of this discussion is that we killed the Incubators. Humans don't want a Witch eating their own planet, and so should take steps to prevent that on their own, including but not limited to direct grief extraction or killing Madoka immediately upon completion of the wish. (Of course, not granting the wish is also on the table, but that would mean going back to arguing that keeping the universe as full as possible might not be worth murdering people and I've already abandoned that tack with LostDeviljho.)
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If the alternative to Kyubey is killing girls as soon as they make contracts, I'd rather just have Kyubey. Also, if Kyubey can't game the magic system I doubt any younger race ever could.

You can't fabricate the starting conditions, but you can force a looper into creating a Madoka once a looper exists.
If a looper is identified and no Madoka is present, render timeline nonviable.
If a looper is identified and Madoka is present, eliminate looper and acquire wish.
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Pfft, yea, good luck. If the surrounding context a Looper's contract exists in is "Their own species (or whatever) will kill them and exploit their Madoka as soon as they understand the situation", their powerset would accomodate that because that's kind of how the "I want to go back and protect them" Wish seems to work.

You don't break the Loop in that sort of scenario, you just make the Looper adjust to it. They have the ability to save scum and you don't; as soon as you fail to kill them once, ever, they will kill you first in every following timeline before you even have the chance to realize the situation. You're just Oriko, and you will eat shit into infinite universes unto eternity until your murderer's waifu decides to rewrite reality.
 
AuraTwilight said:
If the alternative to Kyubey is killing girls as soon as they make contracts, I'd rather just have Kyubey. Also, if Kyubey can't game the magic system I doubt any younger race ever could.
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You are assuming the incubator is not fundamentally limited in its approach. For starters, it doesn't have (almost any) feelings, that's enough to open and close avenues in comparison with humanity.
 
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