And what stops them from doing both? They will reliably maximize their "profit", even against our interest. The only peaceful solution is to not interact too much until we can destroy them. Coexistence is not an option with them.

(if it works well enough)

If a solution would allow them to completely replace the energy lost to entropy then they shouldn't have a reason to eat humans. If they obtain such a solution and don't stop eating humans, get back to me. Until such a time I maintain that genociding the QBs is in fact probably unethical.

And I am absolutely against destroying them unless you can provide a replacement system that is objectively as good or better, or are willing to take over their jobs.

I disagree with this as a reason for not killing the QBs. I agree with not killing them, but this reason smacks of the same logic the QBs are using for their crimes against the human race. I would rather see the heat death of the universe than accept the QBs activities.
 
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@bird_poison Okay, but that's just semantics. The point being made is that Kyubey doesn't feel curiosity for its own sake, but instead all attempts to find out information is explicitly going to be put to the purpose of turning girls into Witches.

And trying an anti-teleportation grief prison for Kyubey is pointless, he has multiple bodies.
I don't know, it seem to work when Oriko stuck him in a cat carrier.

Good afternoon, Oriko, Sabrina."

Oriko's head jerks up sharply, and she rises to her feet, gliding forward a step before swooping with her now repaired arm to snatch Kyuubey up by the scruff of its neck. Without pause, she spins, gliding back across the grass and shoves the Incubator inside the cat carrier she'd brought out earlier.

"Why are you doing this?" Kyuubey asks.

"My prescience told me to," Oriko answers blandly.
 
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I don't know, it seem to work when Oriko stuck him in a cat carrier.

QUOTE="Firnagzen, post: 1753394, member: 386"]Good afternoon, Oriko, Sabrina."

Oriko's head jerks up sharply, and she rises to her feet, gliding forward a step before swooping with her now repaired arm to snatch Kyuubey up by the scruff of its neck. Without pause, she spins, gliding back across the grass and shoves the Incubator inside the cat carrier she'd brought out earlier.

"Why are you doing this?" Kyuubey asks.

"My prescience told me to," Oriko answers blandly.
[/QUOTE]

No proof he wasn't simultaneously running another body.
 
I disagree with this as a reason for not killing the QBs. I agree with not killing them, but this reason smacks of the same logic the QBs are using for their crimes against the human race. I would rather see the heat death of the universe than accept the QBs activities.
Maybe that's because I agree with their logic. Sure it sucks for the people disadvantaged by it, but on an objective measure the Incubators are the good guys. I can't support destroying them unless there is a functional replacement for them.

What's a millenia or ten? Humanity given the chance will take their jobs on time, and they have a billion years to do so until circunstances force their hand.
The difference between success or failure, for all we know. The Incubators have been doing this for Eons, Humanity hasn't even gotten Mars. Unless you have a working replacement, or are willing to pick right up where they left off, destroying the Incubators is unconscionable.
 
I don't think it's worth figuring out what to do with Kyubey right now, because as much as we claim to know how the system works, there's still a shitload of stuff that we have no idea about because it was never touched on. We don't know how much energy is created by witching out and how it compares to the slow but potentially endless trickle that our powers could provide, we don't know how well the system works, or even if it's doing anything more than delaying the heat death of the universe, and we don't know how long the Incubators have been at this, and through that, whether the system is the first thing they found or whether this is just the latest version of it.
 
I don't think it's worth figuring out what to do with Kyubey right now, because as much as we claim to know how the system works, there's still a shitload of stuff that we have no idea about because it was never touched on. We don't know how much energy is created by witching out and how it compares to the slow but potentially endless trickle that our powers could provide, we don't know how well the system works, or even if it's doing anything more than delaying the heat death of the universe, and we don't know how long the Incubators have been at this, and through that, whether the system is the first thing they found or whether this is just the latest version of it.
I honestly can't see it being the first thing they found, because Kyubey jumps on every opportunity he can to make it better, and the prototype is always less efficient than the final product.
 
Maybe that's because I agree with their logic. Sure it sucks for the people disadvantaged by it, but on an objective measure the Incubators are the good guys. I can't support destroying them unless there is a functional replacement for them.
Their system works. It doesn't make it the best possible outcome, and it causes suffering to us. For all we know, it extends the lifespan of the universe in exchange of all civilized life besides them.

Is natural for us to try to create, promote or allow a better system to exist, and under such parameters the incubators become an obstacle. We have like, a literal googol years to prevent the end of things, and even a big enough barrier counts as a solution.
 
Their system works. It doesn't make it the best possible outcome, and it causes suffering to us. For all we know, it extends the lifespan of the universe in exchange of all civilized life besides them.

Is natural for us to try to create, promote or allow a better system to exist, and under such parameters the incubators become an obstacle. We have like, a literal googol years to prevent the end of things, and even a big enough barrier counts as a solution.
It's better than anything we have, and "Let's kill the ones with a working system and hope we come up with something better later" is a fucking terrible plan.
 
The Incubators have been doing this for Eons, Humanity hasn't even gotten Mars.
Heat death is further away from now than now is from the start of the universe by many orders of magnitude. Unless the Incubators have been working on this since before the universe started, humanity is going to get as experienced as the Incubators trillions of years before it becomes a serious problem.
If somebody came up with a way for us to take grief and create a large amount of energy, we might be able to offer that to the coobies. That could solve problems on that end... Assuming we wouldn't end up strapped to a lab table.
Best outcome I can think of:
  • Grant wishes
  • Directly remove grief from gems
  • Use grief to directly spin turbines and otherwise emit as much energy as possible.
Granting wishes is a positive, I think, if witching is avoided.
 
It's better than anything we have, and "Let's kill the ones with a working system and hope we come up with something better later" is a fucking terrible plan.
Unless you assume the natural course of civilization is to advance to the point another solution is possible (or perish), and that it takes less time for such civilization to reach that point that the death of the universe. A hundred trillion years is big enough for many groups of 14 billion years to fit, and that's the less optimistic estimate.
 
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Unless you assume the natural course of civilization is to advance to the point another solution is possible (or perish), and that it takes less time for such civilization to reach that point that the death of the universe. A googol years is big enough for many groups of 14 billion years to fit, and that's the less optimistic estimate.
Well, no, the less optimistic estimate takes into account that entropy will become a serious problem long before the last black holes evaporate. That's why I said "trillions."
 
Heat death is further away from now than now is from the start of the universe by many orders of magnitude. Unless the Incubators have been working on this since before the universe started, humanity is going to get as experienced as the Incubators trillions of years before it becomes a serious problem.
And on the scale we're talking, what makes you think it isn't a serious problem to try and address now? Combating entropy is a beyond-herculean task, it's literally impossible without magic.

Again, where's your indication that the amount of time it takes for humanity to theoretically come up with a solution won't be the difference between it working and just not being quick enough? Because I don't see one.
 
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Heat death is further away from now than now is from the start of the universe by many orders of magnitude. Unless the Incubators have been working on this since before the universe started, humanity is going to get as experienced as the Incubators trillions of years before it becomes a serious problem.

To be fair, it's entirely possible that in the PMMM-verse, Heat Death is only so distant because of the Incubators' work.
 
Again, where's your indication that the amount of time it takes for humanity to theoretically come up with a solution won't be the difference between it working and just not being quick enough? Because I don't see one.
Why would it not be quick enough? The incubators managed to do it in less than 14 billion years, likely far less. There is no current mechanism that accelerates entropy in the universe, besides random chance. 14 billion years from now it will be the same universe, if somewhat dimmer and with more galaxies being elliptical.

And, those are 2 things we can ask the incubator. Its age and if there is a time limit on its operation. We are human, curiosity for its own sake is a valid excuse to us.
 
Again, where's your indication that the amount of time it takes for humanity to theoretically come up with a solution won't be the difference between it working and just not being quick enough? Because I don't see one.
Because, considering the difference in scale between how long we have and how much time has already happened, that's only slightly more likely than the odds that starting any later than the exact moment of the Big Bang was too late. I know that billions of years seems like a lot but they're honestly too small a timescale to be worth considering here.

Also, unlike the climate change we're more used to dealing with, the universe is not a big interconnected system that needs to be maintained all at once or it all collapses. Some stars fizzling out will not make it harder to keep the ones we're maintaining going, and even if we somehow, against all odds, in an eventuality so astronomically unlikely that human language is incapable of adequately describing it, manage to fuck around for so long that we only end up maintaining a single star, that'll last until a Madoka comes along and wishes to fill the universe back up. The only point of no return is total death.
 
I guess I was too soon to say we can talk to him. At least without considerable internal conflict (thread arguing). I appreciate that you agree with me on some level though, Sayaka II. :p

The main frustration I have with silencing all talk of interaction is that it "arbitrarily" (to me, though I realize people have their reasons) cuts off a possible avenue for exploration, whether that's of knowledge, "plot," our life goals, or how to make grief tea. I guess I mostly just resent the idea that we should shut up because we're a less intelligent lifeform and anything we say will mess things up.

...Not that I mean to be rude or bring the thread down! [URGE TO SALVATION INTENSIFIES]
 
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Why would it not be quick enough?
We have no idea how effective the operation is. We don't know if they've actually manage to reverse the process to any degree, or if they're barely breaking even, or if they're still not managing enough and are merely slowing its advance.
If it's anything but the first one, it's entirely possible that removing their system without immediately installing a replacement will allow entropy to advance to the point where we won't be able to get a new system in and operational enough to actually achieve the goal of breaking even.
that'll last until a Madoka comes along and wishes to fill the universe back up.
Madoka's are literally impossible to occur naturally. Unless you're suggesting we artificially boost people's potential via the the hand-over-fist usage of alternate realities like Homura did.
 
To be fair, it's entirely possible that in the PMMM-verse, Heat Death is only so distant because of the Incubators' work.
That seems unlikely. Stars are very wasteful. The Incubators almost certainly have a more efficient thing for them to dump their energy into. If we're observing something it's probably natural, though now that I think about it the possibility exists that they built all the black holes.
Madoka's are literally impossible to occur naturally. Unless you're suggesting we artificially boost people's potential via the the hand-over-fist usage of alternate realities like Homura did.
It happened once in only fourteen billion years, so extrapolating forwards I can very conservatively predict a couple thousand before the last star naturally dies. I don't particularly care if they happen "naturally", they can definitely happen accidentally, and the only thing keeping them from happening on purpose will be poor documentation.
 
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