[jk] Back off and go say to to Kyoko
-[jk] Do long term observation of Sasa to figure out her issues
--[jk] Take notes on how Homura stalks watches Madoka
 
Framing it as "worth" is inaccurate. I'm saying that every step helps and that it isn't pragmatic or right to just wash our hands of her because we don't like her face.

I would rather take steps that wind up not being enough that are fairly non-time consuming rather than shrugging and letting her self-destruct when we know we can stop it.
We don't know that we can stop it, and doing the same thing over and over again in the hope that it will start yielding different results is the opposite of pragmatic. She ain't buying what we're selling, and we have other priorities.
 
We don't know that we can stop it, and doing the same thing over and over again in the hope that it will start yielding different results is the opposite of pragmatic. She ain't buying what we're selling, and we have other priorities.

[X] Telepathy Kyouko that you'll be there soon.
[X] Apologize to Sasa for the trouble
-[X] Tell her to flag you down next time she see's you for that ice cream.
[X] Head over to Kyoko
[x] Plan to use the Mall to do routine shopping so Sasa can run into you again.
 
Guys, seriously:

That's five times she's told us to go away. We've basically just chased her the length of a mall over the past ten minutes, harassing her the whole way. Frankly we've left creeper territory five minutes ago and are quickly working our way towards committing assault.

Sasa plainly doesn't want to talk to us, and we lack many tools to induce her to listen. And no, ice cream doesn't count, because we've offered twice now and she's said no, despite the fact that she's hungry, meaning that her antipathy towards talking to another person is so great that she's turning down free ice cream. It's pretty clear that normal cold tactics simply aren't going to work here.

One arrow we do have in our quiver is an overt display of magic, which should at least intrigue her enough to stop and pay attention. From there we can explain magical girls and soul gems, how you're basically giving up your soul and accepting lifelong employment as a Grief sharecropper in service of alien lago-felines, but without the Witchbomb even that is unlikely to be effective. I'm really not seeing any other way to "win" this conversation.

Lichbomb is probably enough short-term.

...oh hell. Is Sasa (without Wish) a classic tsundere?

...

...wait, does this mean I was a classic tsundere when I was a teenager?:o:oops:

This is more "Tsun" and less "Dere." It's also not really smart. So, more like "Tsunbaka" than "Tsundere."
 
Giving up on someone isn't what we should be doing.
Then think of a course of action that advances your goal. Consider the likely outcomes here. Realistically, if we keep bugging her, she will not change her mind about us. She will tell us to fuck off, we will be worse off than if we hadn't bothered contacting her at all, and we will have wasted valuable Kyouko time.
'We must do something; this is something, therefore we must do it' is terribad reasoning.
 
I'm planning to vote to ditch Sasa entirely and go do something far more productive, but of the social approaches presented so far, just directly giving her the witchbomb seems best to me... which is why I voted for it last time.
 
Then think of a course of action that advances your goal. Consider the likely outcomes here. Realistically, if we keep bugging her, she will not change her mind about us. She will tell us to fuck off, we will be worse off than if we hadn't bothered contacting her at all, and we will have wasted valuable Kyouko time.
'We must do something; this is something, therefore we must do it' is terribad reasoning.
1. If we ping her and get nothing, we leave her contact info framed in such a way as to make her likely to consider using it.
2. We don't just leave her to mope and wish. We find some way to get her out of canon patterns.
3. We put off Kyouko no longer than necessary- I agree this hunt needs to happen, and SOON.

I'm planning to vote to ditch Sasa entirely and go do something far more productive, but of the social approaches presented so far, just directly giving her the witchbomb seems best to me... which is why I voted for it last time.
That's suicide. Flat out quest suicide. Not least because Sasa can't be trusted to keep her mouth shut or not do the dumb and instantly regret it.
 
1. If we ping her and get nothing, we leave her contact info framed in such a way as to make her likely to consider using it.
2. We don't just leave her to mope and wish. We find some way to get her out of canon patterns.
But neither of these is a CofA.
The former - as it stands, I'm pretty much dead certain she won't use our contact info; as far as she's concerned, we're some random asshole she wants to leave her alone, handing it to her is an act of abject wishful thinking.
The latter just doesn't narrow it down. If we take success as 'she's less of a monumental bitch and/or doesn't contract', we have a multitude of options, but most of them seem to require cutting her in on btw magic (which you oppose), or having lots of time, ability and willingness to monkey with her head talk her around (which we don't), or us not screwing up contact too badly (whoops, too late).
That's suicide. Flat out quest suicide. Not least because Sasa can't be trusted to keep her mouth shut or not do the dumb and instantly regret it.
This, agreed. Lichbomb, maybe. Witchbomb would probably turn into a horrendous clusterfuck.
 
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Giving up on someone isn't what we should be doing.
There are something like six million teenage girls in Japan; if even 0.1% (1 in 1,000) can Contract that means there are six thousand girls just like Sasa, one sentence away from losing their souls. What makes Sasa the one girl, specifically, that you seem prepared to sacrifice the entire country for a chance at saving without letting her know about magic?

Because that's what it's going to take, to do what you're suggesting. We're going to need to watch her, 24/7, probably more obsessively than Homura watches Madoka, to keep the Incubators from approaching her ever, because the moment they do, unless she's well-adjusted enough to tell them where to shove it, it's over. That means abandoning everything else, including but not limited to Walpurgisnacht prep and field trips to Tokyo University and Kasamino, to babysit this girl, in the hopes that we can use our amateur psychologist powers to fix what's wrong with her, a process that at even a generous estimate is going to take weeks, assuming we can even get in the door at all.

So yes, the issue really is a question of how many other plotlines you are prepared to abandon, each one likely resulting in several deaths, in order to babysit Sasa the way you want to?
 
You know, we are not the incubator. We can lie to her, and tell her that if she contracts she eventually will become an insane, horrible monster in possibly eternal suffering, if she doesn't die first.
 
We're talking about ourselves there. Not her. She doesn't give a damn about us, and she's prickly. If she's interested in us skipping school, it may well be because it's something she can use.

Giving her the number is a safety line for if she ever does feel miserable and wants to blow off steam.

Because letting it end on this note is a net failure, there's enough ambiguity to work with, and we need to try and get a hook for next time.

Do you really trust her not to contract, especially for a bad wish, if we leave this as is?

Yeah, no, I don't want Sasa to learn about magic if we can possibly avoid this outcome.

Giving up on an encounter prematurely is a major mistake- the thread wanted to do it with Ono right off the bat almost and it's still not the answer. Especially without so much as an attempt to make a lasting impression or potential hook.

I disagree strongly with the idea that we can't at least get her into a better outcome than canon, ie: us running off again without even trying properly.

Jumping straight to telling her about magic is giving up- the Onmur vote also has too many problems at once to be an effective vote- and likely to horribly backfire given this is Sasa in her current state.

Jumping straight to telling her about magic is giving up on defusing her. If QB shows up after we FAILED to change her mindset because we never tried.

Why is jumping to telling her about magic giving up on her? How does that work?

You want to convince her not to contract... without telling her about magic?

...

So, what you want from this contact is to get an "in" through which to contact her in the future. That seems intelligent. And then we try to change her worldview / situation so she won't contract in the future, somehow. Alright.

What if she contracts tonight?

Tomorrow?

The day after?

Are we going to have had time to change this idiot, asshole teenager's entire worldview in a week, all without telling her about magic? In two weeks? In three weeks? In our role as "that damn crazy foreigner?"

What, is she just suddenly going to open up and sing about letting things go before deciding she's actually happy and has friends and etc.? Obviously not, and I don't mean to say that you're suggesting she will, because you're not. You're saying that it would be damn nice if we could deal with her without telling her about magic, and I'm of a mind to agree with you there. I just don't think it's possible.

The fact of the matter is that without giving her some big reason not to contract, she could, for sure, contract at any time up until we manage to really change the life she's living. She could still potentially contract after that, but it's not a sure thing that she will still be a potential MG at that point. It is a sure thing now.

What big reasons are there not to contract? The risk of death, the required timesink that is hunting witches, the lichbomb, the witchbomb. She clearly can get past the first two, since she contracted before. But really, talking about any of them requires talking about magic. Homura tried to warn Madoka off in canon that first time, without mentioning magic? That was totally ineffectual, really. And that was with Madoka and Homura. Sasa and the crazy foreigner? That sort of shtick won't accomplish a damn thing, except to let us say that we tried, sort of.

Oh, good. Was in disbelief there for a second heh.

That...makes more sense, but what if she does a wish->instant regret approach instead? That doesn't seem quite enough on its own if we did do it.

We don't leave it at the lichbomb. We lichbomb her now or generally today, then we figure out what is wrong with her family life that has her skipping school. Skipping is not okay in Japan. The verb for it, saboru, is literally drawn from the english word "Sabotage," because it's viewed as sabotaging oneself and/or one's relations. I'd guess that we don't have a big deal being made over it primarily because we're a foreigner and a meguca, we're not on record anywhere, and etc. Especially the meguca part. But Sasa should be taking metric tons of flak over this.

We lichbomb her now, then we figure out what the problems in her life are at some point in the near future. Then we can figure out what to do in terms of changing stuff. I'll eat my foot if she's got a loving family that she goes home to and recounts the events of her day to over dinner. That sort of situation doesn't produce this kind of person. I'd be a hell of a lot less surprised to find a single parent situation and/or alcoholism. Some kind of setup where the parents don't care or aren't around enough to pick up on what she's doing.
 
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Why is jumping to telling her about magic giving up on her? How does that work?

You want to convince her not to contract... without telling her about magic?

...

So, what you want from this contact is to get an "in" through which to contact her in the future. That seems intelligent. And then we try to change her worldview / situation so she won't contract in the future, somehow. Alright.

What if she contracts tonight?

Tomorrow?

The day after?

Are we going to have had time to change this idiot, asshole teenager's entire worldview in a week, all without telling her about magic? In two weeks? In three weeks? In our role as "that damn crazy foreigner?"

What, is she just suddenly going to open up and sing about letting things go before deciding she's actually happy and has friends and etc.? Obviously not, and I don't mean to say that you're suggesting she will, because you're not. You're saying that it would be damn nice if we could deal with her without telling her about magic, and I'm of a mind to agree with you there. I just don't think it's possible.

The fact of the matter is that without giving her some big reason not to contract, she could, for sure, contract at any time up until we manage to really change the life she's living. She could still potentially contract after that, but it's not a sure thing that she will still be a potential MG at that point. It is a sure thing now.

What big reasons are there not to contract? The risk of death, the required timesink that is hunting witches, the lichbomb, the witchbomb. She clearly can get past the first two, since she contracted before. But really, talking about any of them requires talking about magic. Homura tried to warn Madoka off in canon that first time, without mentioning magic? That was totally ineffectual, really. And that was with Madoka and Homura. Sasa and the crazy foreigner? That sort of shtick won't accomplish a damn thing, except to let us say that we tried, sort of.



We don't leave it at the lichbomb. We lichbomb her now or generally today, then we figure out what is wrong with her family life that has her skipping school. Skipping is not okay in Japan. The verb for it, saboru, is literally drawn from the english word "Sabotage," because it's viewed as sabotaging oneself and/or one's relations. I'd guess that we don't have a big deal being made over it primarily because we're a foreigner and a meguca, we're not on record anywhere, and etc. Especially the meguca part. But Sasa should be taking metric tons of flak over this.

We lichbomb her now, then we figure out what the problems in her life are at some point in the near future. Then we can figure out what to do in terms of changing stuff. I'll eat my foot if she's got a loving family that she goes home to and recounts the events of her day to over dinner. That sort of situation doesn't produce this kind of person.
I'm extremely reluctant to just straight to magic except as a last resort, and don't think we've reached the point where that's a net positive yet in terms of the Sasatactics. Not least because it means she may well do the dumb. It's trading her maybe being found by QB and being ignorant for her definitely knowing about magic and maybe knowing not to make wishes despite her many personality flaws that'd lead her to make a stupid wish.

Honestly, if we magicbomb her, I'd almost want to emphasize "screw everyone else- who cares about them and what they're like? You should think about yourself and what you CAN do rather than judging yourself by everyone else since at the end of the day if you're happy is what matters there".

Also, while we may need to figure out her family life...I suspect it may be a broken home or something where us sticking our nose in would be throwing fuel on the fire.

So yeah, I kindaa agree on some of that, I guess?
 
That...makes more sense, but what if she does a wish->instant regret approach instead?

Well, it changes things significantly. It gets her paranoia spun up and pointed full blast on Kyubey, it means she goes into it with her eyes far more open, and so on. Frankly, I don't care if Sasa contracts after we lay out (some of) the downsides. We did as much (or more, even) as we could be expected to, and it's a decision she made of her own free will, for good or ill.

Saying people shouldn't get to make decisions because they might make the wrong ones is paternalism of the worst sort. And Sasa is NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY OTHER POTENTIAL.

This, this is something I've been meaning to get off my chest for a while now, but Sabrina's bias towards "canon" characters is easily my least favorite aspect of her personality. There are two potentials in Oriko's school. Do we know their story? Of course we don't! Are we gonna follow them around and try to give them therapy? Almost certainly not!

Literally everything we know about Sasa is that she's a person with a shitload of issues and no redeeming qualities were ever presented. But -holy shit!- she showed up in some of Oriko's stories! I guess that means that we have to treat her like she matters instead of as a background character!

Firn is writing a vibrant, living world. Every girl, every potential, has her own story to tell - and statistically speaking, most of them are more pleasant, easier to deal with, and more amenable to co-operation than Sasa.

In 2009, there were 1.8 billion people between the ages of 10-24. If half of those are girls, and 0.01% of girls have the potential to become a puella magi, then there are ninety thousand people Sabrina could be helping right now. Why is Sasa special?
 
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Well, it changes things significantly. It gets her paranoia spun up and pointed full blast on Kyubey, it means she goes into it with her eyes far more open, and so on. Frankly, I don't care if Sasa contracts after we lay out (some of) the downsides. We did as much (or more, even) as we could be expected to, and it's a decision she made of her own free will, for good or ill.

Saying people shouldn't get to make decisions because they might make the wrong ones is paternalism of the worst sort. And Sasa is NOT MORE IMPORTANT THAN ANY OTHER POTENTIAL.

This, this is something I've been meaning to get off my chest for a while now, but Sabrina's bias towards "canon" characters is easily my least favorite aspect of her personality. There are two potentials in Oriko's school. Do we know their story? Of course we don't! Are we gonna follow them around and try to give them therapy? Almost certainly not!

Literally everything we know about Sasa is that she's a person with a shitload of issues and no redeeming qualities were ever presented. But -holy shit!- she showed up in some of Oriko's stories! I guess that means that we have to treat her like she matters instead of a background character!

Firn is writing a vibrant, living world. Every girl, every potential, has her own story to tell - and statistically speaking, most of them are more pleasant, easier to deal with, and more amenable to co-operation than Sasa.

In 2009, there were 1.8 billion people between the ages of 10-24. If half of those are girls, and 0.01% of girls have the potential to become a puella magi, then there are ninety thousand people Sabrina could be helping right now. Why is Sasa special?
Because we know who she is and writing someone we know off leaves a sour taste in my mouth. Explicitly writing ANYONE off seems wrong.

From a cold, practical POV, she's more of a potential headache than the others given what we know and we found her first.
 
This, this is something I've been meaning to get off my chest for a while now, but Sabrina's bias towards "canon" characters is easily my least favorite aspect of her personality. There are two potentials in Oriko's school. Do we know their story? Of course we don't! Are we gonna follow them around and try to give them therapy? Almost certainly not!

Literally everything we know about Sasa is that she's a person with a shitload of issues and no redeeming qualities were ever presented. But -holy shit!- she showed up in some of Oriko's stories! I guess that means that we have to treat her like she matters instead of a background character!
The key issue here is that we know her. As in, we know she is going to die, and probably kill if we don't do something. In the other 2 cases we know nothing about them, we can even assume they are mentally sound, but this sasa girl is a know quantity, letting her be would be negligence.

Strictly speaking, killing her would be better than letting her develop without interfering. Not that I'm proposing that, that's like, the last last resource.
 
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