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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Hmm. So I was thinking about this, and I think talking to Mami about Walpurgisnacht before recruiting Kyoko is a good idea.

Mami was willing to team up with Kyoko against Oriko (I'll find the quote later), so clearly if the threat is dire enough, she's willing to work with her former partner. Walpurgisnacht qualifies, and between our weird metaknowledge, Homura backing us up, and Mami's canonical ability to be able to tell Walpurgisnacht is coming, convincing her of the threat shouldn't be too difficult.

At that point, we'll probably have Mami's permission to go and recruit various magical girls for the fight - and not sidelining Mami is definitely better than going behind her back to recruit someone she had a falling out with. It also means more time to discuss spreading the Walpurgisnacht news to the traveling magical girl once she shows up.

So yeah, I think we should move the Kyokotalk to after lunch, and discuss the major incoming threat with Mami and Homura first. In some ways, knowing a massive threat is bearing down might help Sayaka, too - she'll know there's a "boss monster" she can help us fight, and it puts the Oriko and Kirika situation in perspective.

[x] I can't say I don't understand where she's coming from, really. Her mom got hurt, and... I won't be asking her to like you. But... Her driving motivation is justice, not vengeance. It... should be possible to work through this.
[x] Maybe... I was thinking of dropping in again soon, with Sayaka in tow. I thought maybe, if I introduced her to you first beforesaying...um, exactly why you guys are here, so she'd try and see you as people first?
[x] Also... I was planning on discussing Walpurgisnacht at lunch today. Maybe with a bigger threat to focus on, her approach might be different?
[x] If you have any ideas, I'm all ears. It's a precarious situation that directly involves you both. Umm. I'll be in touch.
[x] Will you guys be okay? Oriko?
[x] Um, speaking of families: Kirika, one thing- your parents/family doing okay? I forgot to ask.
[x] Say your goodbyes, then check the time.
[x] If you've got a bunch of time left, try contacting the various regions you haven't yet to work out a decent time to drop by and cleanse. Otherwise, head to lunch.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Hmm. So I was thinking about this, and I think talking to Mami about Walpurgisnacht before recruiting Kyoko is a good idea.

Mami was willing to team up with Kyoko against Oriko (I'll find the quote later), so clearly if the threat is dire enough, she's willing to work with her former partner. Walpurgisnacht qualifies, and between our weird metaknowledge, Homura backing us up, and Mami's canonical ability to be able to tell Walpurgisnacht is coming, convincing her of the threat shouldn't be too difficult.

At that point, we'll probably have Mami's permission to go and recruit various magical girls for the fight - and not sidelining Mami is definetly better than going behind her back to recruit someone she had a falling out with. It also means more time to discuss spreading the Walpurgisnacht news to the traveling magical girl once she shows up.

So yeah, I think we should move the Kyokotalk to after lunch, and discuss the major incoming threat with Mami and Homura first. In some ways, knowing a massive threat is bearing down might help Sayaka, too - she'll know there's a "boss monster" she can help us fight, and it puts the Oriko and Kirika situation in perspective.

[x] I can't say I don't understand where she's coming from, really. Her mom got hurt, and... I won't be asking her to like you. But... Her driving motivation is justice, not vengeance. It... should be possible to work through this.
[x] Maybe... I was thinking of dropping in again soon, with Sayaka in tow. I thought maybe, if I introduced her to you first beforesaying...um, exactly why you guys are here, so she'd try and see you as people first?
[x] Also... I was planning on discussing Walpurgisnacht at lunch today. Maybe with a bigger threat to focus on, her approach might be different?
[x] If you have any ideas, I'm all ears. It's a precarious situation that directly involves you both. Umm. I'll be in touch.
[x] Will you guys be okay? Oriko?
[x] Um, speaking of families: Kirika, one thing- your parents/family doing okay? I forgot to ask.
[x] Say your goodbyes, then check the time.
[x] If you've got a bunch of time left, try contacting the various regions you haven't yet to work out a decent time to drop by and cleanse. Otherwise, head to lunch.
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Ehhhh.

Thing is, telling Kyoko isn't about recruiting her for Walpurgisnacht so much as just letting her KNOW to make her own decisions.

We should let Mami know that we want to tell Kyoko, sure, and O've edited my vote accordingly since we'd have to do it after lunch then, but...we kind of owe it to Kyoko to tell her about the trouble.

@AuraTwilight
@FelOnyx
@DB_Explorer
Edited my vote just a bit, so we'd talk to Mami over lunch before Kyokovisit.
 
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Ugolino said:
Ehhhh.

Thing is, telling Kyoko isn't about recruiting her for Walpurgisnacht so much as just letting her KNOW to make her own decisions.

We should let Mami know that we want to tell Kyoko, sure, and O've edited my vote accordingly since we'd have to do it after lunch then, but...we kind of owe it to Kyoko to tell her about the trouble.
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Yeah, I was planning on telling Kyoko even if Mami decided not to recruit her - just that then I'd phrase it as a warning, not a plea/bargain for help. It's just that I feel that if we're going to Kyoko after lunch, that's its own vote and doesn't need to be part of this one.

Found the quote, btw:

Firnagzen said:
Mami nods firmly, jaw firmly set. "If Oriko is as formidable as Homura seems to think she is, then we're going to need all the help we can get." Her lips compress. "We might want to bring in Masami. And Kyouko... maybe."
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Redshirt Army said:
Yeah, I was planning on telling Kyoko even if Mami decided not to recruit her - just that then I'd phrase it as a warning, not a plea/bargain for help. It's just that I feel that if we're going to Kyoko after lunch, that's its own vote and doesn't need to be part in this one.

Found the quote, btw:
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Thing is, I see it less as recruitment- and we should make that clear- and more as "letting her know about something that'll affect her and letting her make her own decisions".

We need to make it clear it isn't a recruitment pitch, and we won't have hard feelings one way or another after. The deal's still on with her and Sayaka if she's still going for it, no matter what. I don't expect it to be a HAPPY conversation-maybe over telepathy since Yuma'll be there- but if we have it, we can't mess it up.
 
Ugolino said:
Thing is, I see it less as recruitment- and we should make that clear- and more as "letting her know about something that'll affect her and letting her make her own decisions".

We need to make it clear it isn't a recruitment pitch, and we won't have hard feelings one way or another after. The deal's still on with her and Sayaka if she's still going for it, no matter what. I don't expect it to be a HAPPY conversation-maybe over telepathy since Yuma'll be there- but if we have it, we can't mess it up.
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Hmm. Yeah, that's probably the better approach to take. We should still let Mami know first, and raising the possible side-effects of mentioning Walpurgisnacht to Oriko doesn't seem like the worst idea.

Nothing else is really time-critical in my altered vote, so if you add that one line about focusing on a greater threat to your vote, I'd be happy to consolidate.
 
DB_Explorer said:
Also just pictured Sayaka burning down Oriko's house.
Oriko: You burned down my house.
Sayaka: Yes. (It was either that, or stabbings.)
Oriko: The house my father worked to get us.
Sayaka: YES! (Stabbings for everybody.)
Oriko: Thank you.
Sayaka: Ye- wait what? (That's it. Stabbings for days!)
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Now with added internal blueberry.
 
Ugolino said:
Uhhhhhhh. I'm not sure we want to bring Walpurgisnacht up to EVERYONE at lunch. Especially >Madoka. Seems risky. Dunno...
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Well, are we gonna have a private discussion to bring it up with just Mami and Homura, then? And if we are, what's the harm of including Sayaka too? We might need to give her a stern warning not to spread it around to Madoka because we're concerned about a Madocontract, but I don't see withholding yet more semi-critical information from Sayaka going well - and it's not like we can keep Walpurgisnacht secret. That's especially true if we tell Kyoko, and then have her train Sayaka.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Well, are we gonna have a private discussion to bring it up with just Mami and Homura, then? And if we are, what's the harm of including Sayaka too? We might need to give her a stern warning not to spread it around to Madoka because we're concerned about a Madocontract, but I don't see withholding yet more semi-critical information from Sayaka going well - and it's not like we can keep Walpurgisnacht secret. That's especially true if we tell Kyoko, and then have her train Sayaka.
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We probably do need to talk about it soon, just not "let's do this over lunch with everyone there" soon...

Yeah, private conversation with Mami may be the way to do this. (Asking permission to bring it up to Kyoko.)
 
FelOnyx said:
They can bond over their shared stab wounds!
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"Oh wow, you got me really good on my lung, I can't even breathe right now!"

"You kidding? That spiral of freaking claws was awesome! I've never seen blood flying like that."

"But the part where you pinned me against the wall was so cool!"

"Aw, it was nothing..."

"You can stab someone's kidney, then shoot them with the same sword while it's inside? I've got to get myself some of that!"

"Well, you should check your weapons thorougly, sometimes they'll surprise you..."

"Mh-hm..."
 
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Onmur said:
"Oh wow, you got me really good on my lung, I can't even breathe right now!"

"You kidding? That spiral of freaking claws was awesome! I've never seen blood flying like that."

"But the part where you pinned me against the wall was so cool!"

"Aw, it was nothing..."

"You can stab someone's kidney, then shoot them with the same sword while it's inside? I've got to get myself some of that!"

"Well, you should check yoyr weapons thorougly, sometimes they'll surprise you..."

"Mh-hm..."
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0/10, no swordsplosions.
 
@Redshirt Army @Ugolino, etc

I see you're still thinking that deceiving and manipulating Sayaka, by introducing her to O+K before explaining why we have them confined, is a good idea. I really, really think that this is going to backfire on everyone, Sabrina especially.

The core problem I'm having is that the pro-deceit side is arguing that, by introducing Sayaka to O+K before telling her so they are, we are going to introduce a sort of race condition into her brain, where she simultaneously tries to assign normal girl and villain status to them, notices she is confused, and then works to reconcile the internal conflict. This would be the case if Sayaka were a robotic state machine, but, despite all the jokes, Sayaka is actually a human, and humans don't think that way.

Humans think using neural networks, which store connections, not variable-value pairs. Humans are more than capable of holding contradictory values in their heads and continuing on despite, sometimes even unaware of, the contradiction. Because of this, the most likely outcome of our deception is that it will fail to make Sayaka hate the people who burned her house down any less, because the contradiction of O+K's personality and their actions won't be as important as the fact that they BURNED DOWN HER HOUSE.

What's worse is that the action might actually be more than a failure. By l deceiving Sayaka, manipulating her into meeting with Oriko and Kirika under false pretenses, we deliberately associate ourselves, in Sayaka's mind, with the evil arsonists that burned down her house. After this, she may not listen to us about other, important things, like not letting her soul gem get too dark, of seeking help when fighting Witches. This little deception game we're contemplating could cause a major schism in the group, right when we don't need one.
 
TheEyes said:
@Redshirt Army @Ugolino, etc

I see you're still thinking that deceiving and manipulating Sayaka, by introducing her to O+K before explaining why we have them confined, is a good idea. I really, really think that this is going to backfire on everyone, Sabrina especially.

The core problem I'm having is that the pro-deceit side is arguing that, by introducing Sayaka to O+K before telling her so they are, we are going to introduce a sort of race condition into her brain, where she simultaneously tries to assign normal girl and villain status to them, notices she is confused, and then works to reconcile the internal conflict. This would be the case if Sayaka were a robotic state machine, but, despite all the jokes, Sayaka is actually a human, and humans don't think that way.

Humans think using neural networks, which store connections, not variable-value pairs. Humans are more than capable of holding contradictory values in their heads and continuing on despite, sometimes even unaware of, the contradiction. Because of this, the most likely outcome of our deception is that it will fail to make Sayaka hate the people who burned her house down any less, because the contradiction of O+K's personality and their actions won't be as important as the fact that they BURNED DOWN HER HOUSE.

What's worse is that the action might actually be more than a failure. By l deceiving Sayaka, manipulating her into meeting with Oriko and Kirika under false pretenses, we deliberately associate ourselves, in Sayaka's mind, with the evil arsonists that burned down her house. After this, she may not listen to us about other, important things, like not letting her soul gem get too dark, of seeking help when fighting Witches. This little deception game we're contemplating could cause a major schism in the group, right when we don't need one.
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If you look at my posting history, you'll see that I'm not actually for lying to Sayaka. It's my personal hope that Oriko will point out the obvious issues with that course of action and recommend something else - but since the majority of the votes fell on Ugolino's side last time this came down to democracy, we might as well get an in-character opinion about it now.

In any case, giving Oriko as much agency as possible is one of my goals - I'll be voting to implement whatever plan she comes up with (after discussing it with us to avoid anything particularly stupid or evil), once it's time for that vote.
 
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TheEyes said:
@Redshirt Army @Ugolino, etc

I see you're still thinking that deceiving and manipulating Sayaka, by introducing her to O+K before explaining why we have them confined, is a good idea. I really, really think that this is going to backfire on everyone, Sabrina especially.

The core problem I'm having is that the pro-deceit side is arguing that, by introducing Sayaka to O+K before telling her so they are, we are going to introduce a sort of race condition into her brain, where she simultaneously tries to assign normal girl and villain status to them, notices she is confused, and then works to reconcile the internal conflict. This would be the case if Sayaka were a robotic state machine, but, despite all the jokes, Sayaka is actually a human, and humans don't think that way.

Humans think using neural networks, which store connections, not variable-value pairs. Humans are more than capable of holding contradictory values in their heads and continuing on despite, sometimes even unaware of, the contradiction. Because of this, the most likely outcome of our deception is that it will fail to make Sayaka hate the people who burned her house down any less, because the contradiction of O+K's personality and their actions won't be as important as the fact that they BURNED DOWN HER HOUSE.

What's worse is that the action might actually be more than a failure. By l deceiving Sayaka, manipulating her into meeting with Oriko and Kirika under false pretenses, we deliberately associate ourselves, in Sayaka's mind, with the evil arsonists that burned down her house. After this, she may not listen to us about other, important things, like not letting her soul gem get too dark, of seeking help when fighting Witches. This little
deception game we're contemplating could cause a major schism in the group, right when we don't need one.
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Not blundering in blindly to introduce Oriko in the most negative way possible really isn't deceit and Sayaka isn't a robot. I disagree completely with your character reading and do not think your prophesied outcome is likely.
 
Onmur said:
I see you're thinking this is 'deception' and 'manipulation'.

We don't see eye to eye.
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Yes, because you and those who agree with you think that, because we're withholding information from Sayaka in order to influence her opinions for our benefit, and ultimately for the benefit of the world, that the action is objectively good, and therefore can't be described with morally bad words like 'deception' and 'manipulation', despite those being factually correct descriptions of the proposed action.

In other words, you're lying to yourself, which just goes to show my point about humans being able to hold contradictory values in their minds without noticing the contradiction.
 
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