Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Ugolino]

Yes, because you and those who agree with you think that, because we're withholding information from Sayaka in order to influence her opinions for our benefit, and ultimately for the benefit of the world, that the action is objectively good, and therefore can't be described with morally bad words like 'deception' and 'manipulation', despite those being factually correct descriptions of the proposed action.

In other words, you're lying to yourself, which just goes to show my point about humans being able to hold contradictory values in their minds without noticing the contradiction.

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Look, if you're going to babble about virtue ethics or somesuch...Please don't do that. I'm already getting flashbacks.

It's getting Sayaka to see them as people before telling her about the worst things they've done so she ideally wouldn't be able to demonize them the way she might well do otherwise, given her track record with Homura and even Kyoko. Simple as that. If you don't like that I'm not sure what to tell you, but *shrug*.

@Redshirt Army
I'll note that Oriko isn't always the best judge of good and bad ideas, and that there's such a thing as being too directionless even if listening to other people on occasion is a good thing.

 

[Onmur]

Yes, because you and those who agree with you think that, because we're withholding information from Sayaka in order to influence her opinions for our benefit, and ultimately for the benefit of the world, that the action is objectively good, and therefore can't be described with morally bad words like 'deception' and 'manipulation', despite those being factually correct descriptions of the proposed action.

In other words, you're lying to yourself, which just goes to show my point about humans being able to hold contradictory values in their minds without noticing the contradiction.

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With that way of thinking, psychologists must be the most Horrible Evil Monsters ever.

And so would be every single person that needs to deal with a delicate situation with delicate information and does so successfully, instead of blundering into anything and everything in their path and fucking up.

If you want Oriko dead, Kirika Witched out and Sayaka also dead/Witched out, by all means, vote to tell Sayaka about the arson in the most direct way possible without trying to soften the blow beforehand.

Also, do ignore Oriko's prediction that Sayaka would very much 'accidentally' murder her without our intervention. Situation's fucked up enough without us giving up ways to make it work well.

 

[Julian Bradshaw]

If you look at my posting history, you'll see that I'm not actually for lying to Sayaka. It's my personal hope that Oriko will point out the obvious issues with that course of action and recommend something else - but since the majority of the votes fell on Ugolino's side last time this came down to democracy, we might as well get an in-character opinion about it now.

In any case, giving Oriko as much agency as possible is one of my goals - I'll be voting to implement whatever plan she comes up with (after discussing it with us to avoid anything particularly stupid or evil), once it's time for that vote.

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This is basically where I'm at. Kirika gave us some excellent advice this update, so why not hope we go two for two? The more we're able to depend on our friends for help the better, after all.

 

[Guilop]

Well, I personally also am not really a fan of the plan "let's show Sayaka what swell dudettes Oriko and Kirika are, before we tell her they burned down her house", less out of any morality issues and more that I just think it has a high potential to backfire horribly.

Right now, I'm firmly on the side of listen what Oriko has to say about the issue and make a plan that has her approval.

 

[DB_Explorer]

0/10, no swordsplosions.

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I keep picturing Sayaka squeeing over finding out her swords explode.

 

[Onmur]

I keep picturing Sayaka squeeing over finding out her swords explode.

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I keep picturing Sayaka Sabrina squeeing over finding out her Sayaka's swords explode.

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[DB_Explorer]

mutual squeeing

Hugs all around.

 

[Redshirt Army]

I'll note that Oriko isn't always the best judge of good and bad ideas, and that there's such a thing as being too directionless even if listening to other people on occasion is a good thing.

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Oh, to be sure, Oriko's decision making has been... questionable, to say the least. In a lot of ways, that's why she's in this mess now. But we can hardly claim to be putting forth a good faith effort to restore her agency if we don't give her any control over a decision that affects her this much. And we already know each other's stances on how the reveal should go - I do have a preferred course of action (which, in this case, resembles @TheEyes ideas more than yours), I just think implementing it (or indeed any plan) without Oriko's agreement would counterproductive in the extreme.

 

[Ugolino]

Oh, to be sure, Oriko's decision making has been... questionable, to say the least. In a lot of ways, that's why she's in this mess now. But we can hardly claim to be putting forth a good faith effort to restore her agency if we don't give her any control over a decision that affects her this much. And we already know each other's stances on how the reveal should go - I do have a preferred course of action (which, in this case, resembles @TheEyes ideas more than yours), I just think implementing it (or indeed any plan) without Oriko's agreement would counterproductive in the extreme.

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*shrug*

We've already told her our ideas and she basically said that the current plan (break it gently) is onto something instead of The "bull in a china shop" Eyes plan of just doing it out of the blue and hoping Sayaka doesn't hate Oriko afterwards- which smacks of a complete incomprehension of either Sayaka or the situation. What Oriko's said when asked is that we should probably do it soon, and do it fairly gently. Neither of those are really compatible with the eyes approach.

We've already arguably said all we need to for the agency idea. That's agreement enough for me from Oriko. We've taken her input. We have a plan. We've already told her we'd like her to meet them. We can put it into effect. I don't see any issues with that.

Building up to it AFTER she's met Oriko and Kirika- preferably with an emphasis on meeting Kirika given that she's less likely to get on well with Oriko seems more gradual and controlled than just dropping it on her. I don't think complaints of "she'll feel betrayed" hold much water here assuming we don't massively botch our explanation in that situation, and we shouldn't.

 

[Redshirt Army]

*shrug*

We've already told her our ideas and she basically said that the current plan (break it gently) is onto something instead of The "bull in a china shop eyes Plan of just doing it out of the blue and hoping Sayaka doesn't hate Oriko afterwards- which smacks of a complete incomprehension of either Sayaka or the situation. What Oriko's said when asked is that we should probably do it soon, and do it fairly gently. Neither of those are really compatible with the eyes approach.

We've already arguably said all we need to for the agency idea. That's agreement enough for me from Oriko. We've taken her input. We have a plan. We can put it into effect. I don't see any issues with that.

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It is possible to break it gently without pulling a weird gameshow-esque swap on Sayaka. Apologizing for not having told her that we have them under house arrest, asking whether she'd like to see them in person immediately or after calming down a bit - explaining why mundane prisons won't work on magical girl. Is seeking their deaths, at this point, justice?

But, hey. As long as we discuss the actual option with Oriko in the next update, as, uhh, every single vote thus far does, I'm willing to cede to Oriko's opinion on this. I.e., if you convince Oriko, you convince me.

 

[Ugolino]

It is possible to break it gently without pulling a weird gameshow-esque swap on Sayaka. Apologizing for not having told her that we have them under house arrest, asking whether she'd like to see them in person immediately or after calming down a bit - explaining why mundane prisons won't work on magical girl. Is seeking their deaths, at this point, justice?

But, hey. As long as we discuss the actual option with Oriko in the next update, as, uhh, every single vote thus far does, I'm willing to cede to Oriko's opinion on this. I.e., if you convince Oriko, you convince me.

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I'm willing to take Oriko's suggestions- backed by futuresight or no- with a grain of salt.

As I see it, "break it gently" and "open with what they did" seem mutually exclusive.

The idea is to get the girl who leaps to snap judgements about people to see them as PEOPLE first before she finds out what they did. "The crippled girls I just saw" are harder for her to hate than "these random two monsters who burned down my house". Sayaka is nothing if not dependent on first impressions and prone to bearing grudges.

 

[Redshirt Army]

I'm willing to take Oriko's suggestions- backed by futuresight or no- with a grain of salt.

As I see it, "break it gently" and "open with what they did" seem mutually exclusive.

The idea is to get the girl who leaps to snap judgements about people to see them as PEOPLE first before she finds out what they did. "The crippled girls I just saw" are harder for her to hate than "these random two monsters who burned down my house". Sayaka is nothing if not dependent on first impressions and prone to bearing grudges.

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To be frank, given Oriko burned down her house and injured her mother, expecting Sayaka not to hate her, in the very small timeframe we have to change her opinion, seems wildly overoptimistic to me. I'm hoping for Sayaka to be principled enough not to advocate the murder of a defeated foe, to understand the lack of good options when it comes to meguca incarceration, and to begrudgingly accept that O&K are currently assisting us in the face of larger threats.

She isn't going to like them, and the whole song and dance with asking for a neutral opinion first is going to do very little to change that.

 

[Ugolino]

To be frank, given Oriko burned down her house and injured her mother, expecting Sayaka not to hate her, in the very small timeframe we have to change her opinion, seems wildly overoptimistic to me. I'm hoping for Sayaka to be principled enough not to advocate the murder of a defeated foe, to understand the lack of good options when it comes to meguca incarceration, and to begrudgingly accept that O&K are currently assisting us in the face of larger threats.

She isn't going to like them, and the whole song and dance with asking for a neutral opinion first is going to do very little to change that.

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We can try. I don't think that sort of defeatism gets anywhere or does anything, and at the very least seeing them as misguided extremists who're repentant for what they did before and trying to make up for their past mistakes is the ideal I'm aiming for.

The least we should do is to try and do preemptive damage control on her hating them. Anything else is just letting disaster happen when we could try and avert it.

 

[Onmur]

So... it might be good if we could talk about Walpurgis, and perhaps about how we're expecting Oriko and Kirika help against it before actually explaining to Sayaka what O&K did.

That would put things in perspective, right? Oriko and Kirika are part of the front line against this city destroying threat, so killing them endangers everybody in Mitakihara.

It kind of sucks, but that's that.

 

[Godwinson]

[X] Ugolino

 

[Redshirt Army]

So... it might be good if we could talk about Walpurgis, and perhaps about how we're expecting Oriko and Kirika help against it before actually explaining to Sayaka what O&K did.

That would put things in perspective, right? Oriko and Kirika are part of the front line against this city destroying threat, so killing them endangers everybody in Mitakihara.

It kind of sucks, but that's that.

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Yeah. That's pretty much the approach I wanted to take, really.

 

[Ugolino]

So... it might be good if we could talk about Walpurgis, and perhaps about how we're expecting Oriko and Kirika help against it before actually explaining to Sayaka what O&K did.

That would put things in perspective, right? Oriko and Kirika are part of the front line against this city destroying threat, so killing them endangers everybody in Mitakihara.

It kind of sucks, but that's that.

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Except that then there's timing. We can't talk about it over lunch, we need to talk about it before introducing her to Oriko...

Consult Mami about giving Sayaka the rundown on things as a whole after school's out?

1. Run the plan by Mami privately over lunch.
2. After school, tell Sayaka we need to tell her about some things and show her a pair of magical girls who're under house arrest- mention how they've helped save lives since and were misguided.
3. Tell her about Walpurgis. Tell her she should meet the two- how one of them was in pain and dying until recently and the other's wish was to help her.
4. Tell her what Oriko and Kirika did after she met them.

 

[Redshirt Army]

Except that then there's timing. We can't talk about it over lunch, we need to talk about it before introducing her to Oriko...

Consult Mami about giving Sayaka the rundown on things as a whole after school's out?

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I can get behind this plan. Discuss Walpurgis with Mami and Homura over lunch, then go and talk to Kyoko and Masami about it during the rest of school, then bring Sayaka up to speed on the Walpurgis situation after school as part of her general meguca education, then implement whatever Sayaka Oriko/Kirika reveal plan we end up going with, then relax for a bit before ending the day with metabombing Mami.

E: Basically, talk about Walpurgis before doing whatever with the Oriko and Kirika reveal. So swap steps 2 and 3 in your fleshed out plan.

 

[Muramasa]

Oriko isn't worried about walpurgis. She's predicted it's defeat and every time she mentions it in general, she's rather nonplussed about it.

 

[Ugolino]

Oriko isn't worried about walpurgis. She's predicted it's defeat and every time she mentions it in general, she's rather nonplussed about it.

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Well, we'd potentially bring up Feathers, ie: her motivation to Sayaka or lump them under "two big threats..."

 

[DB_Explorer]

right sorry - I'm just picturing Sabrina doing the opening from Patton now for her pre-walpurgis battle speech - complete with giant flag of the city behind her.

Well, we'd potentially bring up Feathers, ie: her motivation to Sayaka or lump them under "two big threats..."

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Would feathers also be something to bring up when we Meta-bomb Mami?

I do hope Mami does not take that we helped/went with her as some sort of pity thing after we Meta-bomb her.

 

[Muramasa]

That's just two of a handful of out there reasons we would like Oriko alive that only make sense with the right context.

In the end, what it really amounts to is that we believe in forgiveness. And we believe in redemption.

Now just how do we convey that to Sayaka?

 

[Ugolino]

That's just two of a handful of out there reasons we would like Oriko alive that only make sense with the right context.

In the end, what it really amounts to is that we believe in forgiveness. And we believe in redemption.

Now just how do we convey that to Sayaka?

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1. They've suffered for their crimes. And they're still not getting off scott free.
2. They're well meaning extremists, or in Kirika's case was doing it for love. That doesn't make it right but they thought they were doing it for everyone's sake.
3. They did it because they thought they were saving her life by doing so.
4. They've definitely saved lives since.
5. They'll help us with the upcoming threat.

right sorry - I'm just picturing Sabrina doing the opening from Patton now for her pre-walpurgis battle speech - complete with giant flag of the city behind her.



Would feathers also be something to bring up when we Meta-bomb Mami?

I do hope Mami does not take that we helped/went with her as some sort of pity thing after we Meta-bomb her.

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Mami...knows about feathers already, I'm pretty sure?

I'd be more worried about fears of us using her than that really.

 

[TheEyes]

Mami...knows about feathers already, I'm pretty sure?

I'd be more worried about fears of us using her than that really.

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I think the only part about Feathers that she doesn't know is that we have a suspicion that Feathers is our Witch, and Mami is not ready for the Witchbomb yet.

In the end, what it really amounts to is that we believe in forgiveness. And we believe in redemption.

Now just how do we convey that to Sayaka?

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Well, we can explain that we've already got them on house arrest with a community service program, and at last count they've helped save thousands of lives by helping prevent the big earthquake/tsunami disaster last weekend, so it can be considered a fairly good success so far. Of course to confirm that part we're going to have to talk to Sayaka under nondisclosure bracelet or timestop, given that corroborating evidence will require Homura's Looper testimony, but that's still doable. If we can get Homura to agree beforehand to back that part of the story up we'll be in good shape I think.

 

[Ugolino]

I think the only part about Feathers that she doesn't know is that we have a suspicion that Feathers is our Witch, and Mami is not ready for the Witchbomb yet.

Well, we can explain that we've already got them on house arrest with a community service program, and at last count they've helped save thousands of lives by helping prevent the big earthquake/tsunami disaster last weekend, so it can be considered a fairly good success so far. Of course to confirm that part we're going to have to talk to Sayaka under nondisclosure bracelet or timestop, given that corroborating evidence will require Homura's Looper testimony, but that's still doable. If we can get Homura to agree beforehand to back that part of the story up we'll be in good shape I think.

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...No, we won't need Homura's looping testimony? Why would we?