FelOnyx
Love and Peace!
- Location
- Gunsmoke
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Curse you democratic process!
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Vinyl
The pinnacle of mental health and good ideas
- Location
- Some hospital
Wait, you want to be in charge of the giant mass of brain damage?Firnagzen is dead. Now I reign supreme over this thread! Bow down before your new overlord, mortals!
You're a brave man.
...Damnit.
The argument was whether or not we should lie (by omission, like Kyubey, so it's perfectly legit!) to Sayaka when we introduce her to Oriko and Kirika, somehow deflect her attention from the way they are under house arrest and (if I remember right) Oriko is still missing part of her arm, and get her to become friends with the two, before we tell her that this is the magical girl team that burned down her house and broke Hitomi's leg in the name of making the world a better place.
The pro side argues that Kirika's bestbuddy personality will immediately win over Sayaka, so when she later finds out that this is the girl who pushed Hitomi down the stairs she'll sort of shrug and forgive her. I'm not sure why, or even if, anyone thinks Sayaka will immediately forgive Miss Fatalistic for attempting to burn down her house with her family still inside.
The neg side argues that this is a stupid plan, and all lying to Sayaka will do is make her trust us less, and that we're far better off telling Sayaka in advance, so she has some time to come to terms with the issue before we introduce her to the arsonists.
The pro side countered that Sayaka is a completely unreasonable individual once she gets an idea in her head, and once we tell her that Oriko and Kirika tried to burn down her house in an attempt to save the world she will hate them and will never change her mind again, so we have to trick her into becoming friends with them first, before revealing that it was all a deception.
I countered with what I thought was the obvious counter-argument: Homura, whom Sayaka immediately jumped to a negative conclusion about, but over the ensuing week has reluctantly changed her mind about. Getting Sayaka to change her mind about O+K will be a harder sell, admittedly, but with Homura we have already laid the groundwork for Sayaka to accept that people sometimes make decisions that look wrong, but were made with the best of intentions, so hopefully we can get her to see O+K in the same light. But I guess that argument wasn't as obvious as I thought it was, so it got lost in a sea of heckling.
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EtchedSteel
*mumble mumble*
- Location
- Lima. Peru
Firnagzen is dead. Now I reign supreme over this thread! Bow down before your new overlord, mortals!
I bow to no one.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
You have an idea of the pro argument that doesn't quite fit reality.
It would look quite fine stuck on a strawman.
- Location
- Canada
Okay.
No.
Stop straw manning.
If you want to debate, I'm happy too - but misrepresenting and misinterpreting the opposing argument to try and score brownie points reflect poorly on you.
I was suggesting we tell her, flat out, that we want her to form a natural and neutral opinion of them. I was also suggesting we tell her that we'll explain why afterwards.
As in, we be completely honest with her, but not all-revealing.
No quite. The pro side was suggesting that as Sayaka's first impressions mean a lot to her, exposing her to the fact that Oriko and Kirika are people would be more effective then introducing them as the people who burnt her house down. That they're people who are in love, who make silly puns about magic and are passionate about love and cooking. That they're more then just "enemies" or "villains".
If she sees them as people first, before seeing them as enemies, then it should make it easier for her to tolerate them.
I think that we can pull it off without lying.
"Yo, Sayaka."
"Wuzzup?"
"I need your opinion on these two meguca. Hang out with them for bit, kay?"
"Sure, why?"
"I'll tell you later. I need a neutral opinion."
*Shrug*
"Meh, fine."
I like the blueberry quite a lot. But even so...! It is true that she's very stubborn, and will cling to her perceptions. Look at how she treats Homura here - Homura, who is an ally and friend. Homura, who works with us - her - and has saved her life. Look how much effort and time it took us to get her to grudgingly apologize and respect Homura, even a small amount.
Again; it's being suggested that we just let her meet them on neutral terms. If she dislikes them...whatever. All I'm suggesting is that she meet them and recognize them as people. Furthermore, we've straight up told her that there are bad magical girls out there - people who are lost and misguided, and whom we want to save and help.
She said we were cool. She admires us, as an embodiment of the ideal magical girl she wants to be. A warrior that fights for peace. A savior that protects everyone. A Hero of Justice™. She wants to help us save those meguca who were misguided. This is just setting things up so that when she meets them for the first time, she won't think of them as "the bitch that burnt my house down and hurt my friends", but "a person Sabrina wanted me to meet for some reason."
...I didn't get that at all.
It was suggested that we get Sayaka to see O&K as people first, so that she won't form a biased opinion of them.
You said two words, from which were possible to draw a myriad of conclusions.
Getting a multiple line argument from two words is difficult, but it seemed like you were implying that Homura showed that we could Blueberry to open up to someone who she had a bad impression of. But, well, while it was possible - it was extremely difficult, which was what everyone else pointed out. Even now, she often says Homura is creepy or snarks at her and whatnot.
Hence why I think that aiming for a good/neutral first impression is important.
I must stress that I don't think we should lie to the blueberry - I think we should be honest. Tell her, flat out, that we want her to meet and form an unbiased opinion of two magical girls, for reasons that we'll explain right afterwards - we want an unbiased opinion from a party that hasn't met them before, and if we tell her now, it'll ruin our master scheme to save the world.
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Okay, then could you explain the pro argument to me? Because it sounds to me like the basic idea is to lie to Sayaka, pray she doesn't notice obvious things like O+K's confinement and Oriko's missing lower arm, then suddenly revealing we were lying to her and hoping that she just sort of accepts it.
(Edit): Ah, ninja-ed by a full explanation. Okay, reading now.
Of course she'd be resistant; there's no way she won't be, even if this whole deception plan works out perfectly. At least if we're up-front with her she'll have a chance to come to terms with the situation before she ever meets O+K in the first place, so it's less likely to blow back on Sabrina when she does get angry.
Incidentally, one thing I expect out of this whole scenario, regardless of what plan we follow, is for Sayaka and Homura to bond a little over O+K hate.
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I think you don't really understand what the approach is or are misrepresenting it.Okay, then could you explain the pro argument to me? Because it sounds to me like the basic idea is to lie to Sayaka, pray she doesn't notice obvious things like O+K's confinement and Oriko's missing lower arm, then suddenly revealing we were lying to her and hoping that she just sort of accepts it.
Of course she'd be resistant; there's no way she won't be, even if this whole deception plan works out perfectly. At least if we're up-front with her she'll have a chance to come to terms with the situation before she ever meets O+K in the first place, so it's less likely to blow back on Sabrina when she does get angry.
Incidentally, one thing I expect out of this whole scenario, regardless of what plan we follow, is for Sayaka and Homura to bond a little over O+K hate.
The pro argument is to introduce her to them, let her see who they are and what they're like, then explain the rest to her. "Deception" doesn't factor into it so much as her meeting them, then telling her that they're under house arrest for the mistakes they've made, that they've since helped save lives, and that one of them's dying and the other wished for her sake. Then letting her know the specifics.
As opposed to opening with "HEY SAYAKA WANT TO SEE THE PEOPLE WHO BROKE HITOMI'S ARM AND SET YOUR HOUSE ON FIRE"?
Yeahhh no. Sayaka just flat out shut Madoka out when that happened. If she sees them as people first, that won't happen.
Julian Bradshaw
MSY Historian
- Location
- Local Group
It's not so much deception as it is manipulation. I share TheEyes' concern about doing that sort of thing, but I agree that we probably really need to get Sayaka to see O&K as people first.
Could we perhaps approach Sayaka even more directly about what we plan to do? Something like:
"Hey, so now that you're a magical girl, there's some... less positive stuff we need to tell you about. With your best interests in mind, I'd like to go about telling you these things in a certain roundabout way. It could maybe be called manipulative. Do you think you could play along anyway? I swear I wouldn't be doing this if I could think of a better way for everyone involved."
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- Location
- Canada
I'm just concerned that if we make things too ominous than she'll see them as "sketchy people that Sabrina is being all secrety about".
Slith10
Back from the dead and ready to party!
- Location
- New Zealand
It's not Manipulative, it's "I want you to meet these people and get to know them. Why? I'll tell you after you get to know them." vs "These people I'm about to introduce you to burnt down your house. Get to know them."
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
But they are sketchy people that we're being all secrety about.
So that makes everything OK!
Julian Bradshaw
MSY Historian
- Location
- Local Group
What? We're withholding information she would find very relevant in order to get her to do what we want when she otherwise wouldn't. It's basically the definition of manipulative.
Anyway, this is all rather premature. We still need to know what Oriko thinks about the idea of meeting with Sayaka.
Keep it simple.
"There are some people you should meet. They're magical girls who we had to put under house arrest."
>introductions
"Oriko wished to find the purpose of her life. Kirika wished to help Oriko. They've both helped us save lives back during Sendai and after that."
>THEN give explanations
That's still very deceitful. Sure, it's not outright telling a falsehood, but it is withholding key information so Sayaka can't make an informed decision. In other words, it's exactly the kind of thing the Incubators do, and for pretty much the exact same reasons: we want her to do something that she clearly wouldn't do if she had all the information, so we're manipulating her into doing it with less than full disclosure about what she's doing and why.
Further, I very much doubt it's going to turn out well for Sayaka's impression of O+K. I mean, on one side you'll have an hour's conversation, likely stilted because O+K will be somewhat awkward over the fact that this is the girl whose house they burned down and Sayaka will be trying to figure out what our game is, possibly wondering aloud why these girls are confined to quarters and why one of them is missing an arm, and on the other you'll have the grim fact that Sayaka lost her house, and might well have lost her parents and her own life, to these two. I'd be shocked if she didn't just throw out her impression of O+K as just another lie, and quite possibly look at us as traitors as well for manipulating her into doing it.
The point, though, is that we did it. We got Sayaka to admit that she was wrong about someone. We forced her to grow up a little over the past week, and we can use that growth here, to persuade her to suspend judgment for a little while.
I think we'd have a better result if we can explain O+K's side of things, that they thought that they were being Heroes of Justice themselves by doing this; their problem was they were relying on their powers and preconceived notions, rather than really thinking about their actions. This way, we're treating Sayaka with respect, rather than as a character that we have to manipulate into agreeing with us.
Slith10
Back from the dead and ready to party!
- Location
- New Zealand
Do you tell everyone every scrap of information relevant to them? Do you inform them that your friend thinks they look fat in those pants before entering their house? Don't make things difficult in the name of 'Honesty' when we are going to tell her, just after she realises that they aren't monsters to be killed for justice.
Sayaka isn't going to use logic very much, so don't assume she won't overreact.
She makes initial decisions based almost entirely on her emotions and will stubbornly stick to it regardless.
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DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
how about
"Sakaya I'd like you to meet the people that burned your house down."
"WHAT?! WHY?!"
"Do you trust me?"
"... Yes."
"Then trust me on this."
"Sakaya I'd like you to meet the people that burned your house down."
"WHAT?! WHY?!"
"Do you trust me?"
"... Yes."
"Then trust me on this."
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Then O&K are firmly slotted into the 'burned down my house and hospitalized my mom' part of Sayaka's mind.
Kind of difficult to work from there.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Well its all we have to work from. I'd rather be up front as much as possible since trying to 'soften' the blow or any thing else WILL back fire with Sayaka. For some it might work - not Sakaya 'Hero Complex' Miki.
Sabrina Valdr! The Difficult I do immediately, the impossible takes me a little longer.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Not really, we almost literally just need Sayaka to see Kirika and Oriko once before telling her literally everything that concerns her about them.
Okay, guys, sorry for interrupting the argument, but I think we owe it to you to announce it here.
@Muramasa and I are getting engaged. We first decided to meet up in person last year after getting in contact in quest, and we really hit it off (obviously). One thing led to another, and now we're spending a week off together on a vacation. (This means we won't be posting much for a bit, just so you all know.)
I'd like to think that the thread played no small part in letting us realize just how much we had in common, and just how right we were for each other- so thanks to everyone for their help in making this happen. Without you, this wouldn't be a thing, so thanks for everything from Gonna's lovingly crafting posters right down to the smallest joking "OTP" at the end of quest commentary.
Gotta go soon, we have a flight to catch, but we'll be around to answer questions for a bit. <3
@Muramasa and I are getting engaged. We first decided to meet up in person last year after getting in contact in quest, and we really hit it off (obviously). One thing led to another, and now we're spending a week off together on a vacation. (This means we won't be posting much for a bit, just so you all know.)
I'd like to think that the thread played no small part in letting us realize just how much we had in common, and just how right we were for each other- so thanks to everyone for their help in making this happen. Without you, this wouldn't be a thing, so thanks for everything from Gonna's lovingly crafting posters right down to the smallest joking "OTP" at the end of quest commentary.
Gotta go soon, we have a flight to catch, but we'll be around to answer questions for a bit. <3
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Slith10
Back from the dead and ready to party!
- Location
- New Zealand
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
As the Glorious and Eternal President for Life of PMAS, I approve of this pairing. For far too long have the houses of Miki and Kyouko been locked in strife, and I hope that with this marriage, such pointless grudges may be set aside.
Thus, as Grand High Pope of the United Meguca Church of Madokami, I do confer my blessings unto thee.