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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
Homura is the one who doesn't trust Oriko at all.

We can convince Mami to put some trust in Oriko, and Homura knows that.

I think, if we were to try and ask Homura again to let Oriko out, we'd have to mention... Kyuubey, of all things, as it has confirmed our suspicions Oriko's rejecting her Wish.

We're basically killing Oriko right now. We thought we were saving her life by putting her under house arrest, but we actually just changed the manner of her death into a worse, long-winded one...

Would Homura consider letting Oriko out the house if we present this as "we're killing Oriko, it's really on our shoulders this time"?


I think the more important part is that Symmetry Oriko chose to not give up, and our Oriko can do even better than that. Realisations and epiphanys can't be given like this.

So long as Oriko can agree to not give up, I think we've done enough today.

We can tell her about Symmetry Oriko's epiphany at another time, I don't think it'd make a difference now.
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I strongly disagree. We don't have time to dither, we have no real reason NOT to explain, and it could help. We should do it.
 
Ugolino said:
we have no real reason NOT to explain
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Of course we do. It can go badly.

If we try to tell her what she should think or feel, it's too easy for her to dismiss whatever we say out of hand, permanently.

Oriko would have to be the one asking us to tell her about Symmetry Oriko's epiphany, and only as an example of what someone like her can think; our Oriko needs to reach her own conclusion.

To me, it really sounds like we've a chance of shooting ourselves in the foot by going on about Symmetry Oriko's epiphany, instead of focusing on how she grew as a person, and chose to fight the odds instead of giving up.
 
Onmur said:
Of course we do. It can go badly.

If we try to tell her what she should think or feel, it's too easy for her to dismiss whatever we say out of hand, permanently.

Oriko would have to be the one asking us to tell her about Symmetry Oriko's epiphany, and only as an example of what someone like her can think; our Oriko needs to reach her own conclusion.

To me, it really sounds like we've a chance of shooting ourselves in the foot by going on about Symmetry Oriko's epiphany, instead of focusing on how she grew as a person, and chose to fight the odds instead of giving up.
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It sounds like Firn's trying to spook us from telling her the truth. Facts. Everything.
 
On the other hand, I will concede that I might be just paranoid. For all we know the QM just got tired of writing and decided to end the update there instead of getting into it.
 
"You unlock your powers fully. Fighting wholeheartedly. You go on to fight Walpurgisnacht."

"And, I presume, we die," Oriko says. She shakes her head. "I don't see how that was supposed to help."
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[Q] Tilt head.
-[Q] What? What does it matter? The story's already over, who cares about what happened afterwards?

:V

Our circumstances are different, what matters is how we'll confront them.
 
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Always Late said:
snip
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Oh shit, we have to fight to the death now, don't we?

Firnagzen said:
"And, I presume, we die," Oriko says. She shakes her head.
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[] shrug
-[] "So? Everyone has, except Homura. That's not the point, Oriko."
-[] "That version of you was happy, because she'd found something more important to her than the whole world. If you died- and I don't know that you did- you died together, and you died with no regrets. That Oriko sure as hell had better odds against Walpurgisnacht than you do now, because she had her head in the game, wasn't crippled by her own magic, and could shoot goddamn laser beams. That Oriko learned how to use her visions, rather than being used by them."
-[] "You of all people should know how many people should have died by now, but didn't, because we saved them. You saved them, because you saw a terrible fate in store for them, and you fought it. We proved your visions wrong, and we've been able to stack the deck against Walpurgisnacht- and whatever comes after it- more than it's ever been. I've seen it be destroyed, and nobody has to die for that to happen."
-[] "Fate is never writ in stone, because Magical Girls make the impossible possible. That's the whole point of us existing. What did you think the odds were, after you burned down Sayaka's house, that we'd just drop out of thin air to beat the shit out of you? Just because you don't see a way to survive doesn't mean we can't make one."
-[] "I just want you to think. Not about what you would die for, but what you would fight and kick and scream to live for, no matter what the odds were, even if you knew it was impossible. I'll give you a couple days, and if you can't think of anything, let me know so that I can stick you in my pocket until this all blows over; you will live, even if I have to force you to live."

This is what I think is important, anyway; parts may be redundant/in the wrong order/I may have missed something important, so I'll let you guys hammer it into a usable vote. :V
brb, going to my Italics Anonymous meeting
 
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Definitely against telling her directly. Speaking as someone in Oriko's position on occasion, sometimes "the fact that someone you dislike has told you something" makes it really hard to recognize that they're right.

Not that Oriko necessarily dislikes us, but she's certainly in the habit of opposing us at the moment - in the sense that we're in the middle of a confrontation.
 
linkhyrule5 said:
Definitely against telling her directly. Speaking as someone in Oriko's position on occasion, sometimes "the fact that someone you dislike has told you something" makes it really hard to recognize that they're right.

Not that Oriko necessarily dislikes us, but she's certainly in the habit of opposing us at the moment - in the sense that we're in the middle of a confrontation.
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Except that she doesn't dislike us so I don't think that's applicable. She's not quite THAT contrary as to dismiss it out of hand.
 
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linkhyrule5 said:
Oh, please. I don't dislike about ninety percent of this forum, but that doesn't meant that it isn't hard as hell to admit that the other guy has a point after I've been in a flamewar for five pages.

That's about where Oriko's at right now, if we just hand her the idea.
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Except that she's already engaging with us about the issue, and the notion that we shouldn't tell her the whole point because...we're trying to persuade her (?!) doesn't make much sense to me.

I mean that's only the whole point of this line of argument, we'd be leaving it half baked and hope that we remember to tell her later and that things won't get worse in the meantime.
 
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Snow said:
Linguistics geekery time!

Basically, writing and speech are different, and how you write the same sound varies according to language (and dialects too). In English, the letter 'y' is indeed used for several vowels as well as a consonant (written as [j] in the International Phonetic Alphabet). In most romanisations of Japanese, 'y' is only used to write the consonant [j]. And the native Japanese writing systems (kanji, hiragana, katakana) obviously don't have the letter 'y' since they're not the Latin alphabet, but as pointed out, the consonant [j] is accounted for as well.

I was going to go into more detail, but then I realised it'd be much easier to just link the Wikipedia page instead: Y - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

It explains things better than I could anyway. :p
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Well, yeah. I was just talking about equivalents specifically to avoid linguistics geekery :V
 
Ugolino said:
Except that she's already engaging with us about the issue, and the notion that we shouldn't tell her the whole point because...we're trying to persuade her (?!) doesn't make much sense to me.
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We're not trying to persuade her, we want her to realize, deep in the depths of her soul, that Kirika is the meaning of her life. The standards for that are higher than an academic discussion.
Ugolino said:
we'd be leaving it half baked and hope that we remember to tell her later
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No, that would be stupid. We would tell her never because telling her makes the outcome we actually want less likely. We might tell Kirika, because it isn't Kirika's soul-shattering revelation we're trying to achieve.
 
Torgamous said:
We're not trying to persuade her, we want her to realize, deep in the depths of her soul, that Kirika is the meaning of her life. The standards for that are higher than an academic discussion.

No, that would be stupid. We would tell her never because telling her makes the outcome we actually want less likely. We might tell Kirika, because it isn't Kirika's soul-shattering revelation we're trying to achieve.
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Not...really? It really doesn't make it less likely at all.

I really don't see how even taking the worst case at face value- and I don't think we should- it hurts any more than wanting her to just figure it out when she's basically resigned to dying if left to her own devices.
 
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That was a good update! We weakened Oriko's entrenched "I'm fated to die!" Mentality with some very keen insights on those she cared about being invested in her survival.

Progress!

On the subject of walks for the puppies, I suggest we talk with Mami about it before Homura. She's....less hostile towards them, but still has a healthy mistrust. Her feedback should be valuable here! If we can address her concerns, she can help in talking with Homura

Also a good time to bring up when should tell the Sayaka about the secret drama surrounded her house.


[REMINDER THAT WE HAVEN'T TOLD ORIKO THAT SAYAKA MADE A CONTRACT!]
 
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