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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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RexHeller said:
I'm fairly sure that isn't actually right. Going by the actual Junging psychology the names for Persona and Shadows are from then Shadows and Persona are two very different things. Shadows are a manifestation of the inner desires and secrets you keep from everyone else which can be similar to a which but not necessarily as (I think this is correct) a Witch is a Magical Girls largest desire made flesh, hidden or not. A Persona, in Jungian psychology, is a mask you wear or a role you play while interacting with others to protect yourself and hid your true self from others. Persona in the game take the protecting you part literally and can be seen as manifestations on how you usually act. In that way Shadows and Personas can be seen as opposites rather than the same thing. It's likely that the 'tamed shadow' line is just somebody being confused by Persona 4 where defeating your Shadow unlocks your Persona. Personally I've never seen Personas referred to as tamed Shadows in game.

Please note that all of this was just what I remember and could very well be my head canon that I'm confusing for canon or just plain wrong. Also, probably off-topic.

The point is that I really don't think that using an evoker would summon Dedolere.
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It's a repeated point that Shadows and Personas are identical 'creatures' in the SMT universe. Persona 3: The Answer is where it's first revealed, and then Persona 4 has Naoto make the same revelation when she finds the Kirijo Group's notes near the end of the game.
 
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Anomalous Materials pt. 11
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    • "Oriko," you say, voice clear and sharp as you lean back in your chair. "Your visions are a tool granted by your Wish, not the Wish itself. You know what your Wish was, Oriko, and you should know what you intended when you made it."

    You know what her Wish was, too. 'I want to learn the meaning of my life! This is my wish. This is my prayer. Fulfill it, Kyuubey!'

    Just the same as the rest of your esoteric collection of knowledge. You know. But you don't know how you know. It simply is, knowledge bubbling up within your mind.

    Oriko gapes at you, perfect, stately poise cracked by outrage. "I know what I've seen," she hisses. "I've seen it all fall apart. I've seen open conflict in Mitakihara. I've seen everyone die. Everyone but you."

    You sigh. "Oriko, you are more than your visions," you say, folding your arms. Beside Oriko, Kirika's eyes dart between the two of you as she shifts to cuddle into Oriko's side, slipping one arm around the seer's waist. "I stand by what I said. Your visions are a tool, a means to an end. What is that end?"

    "Saving the world," Oriko snaps.

    ... yeah, you walked right into that one.

    You exhale, blowing out a sharp breath. "Oriko, look," you say, rubbing at your forehead. "OK, fine. I'm not exactly going about this the best way, but my point is, the point I've been trying to make is, your visions are a tool. They're useful, yes. But you are more important than just your powers."

    "I will give my life to save the world," Oriko hisses, eyes narrowing at you. Kirika makes a distressed little noise, tightening her hug around the seer.

    "That's beside the point," you counter, eyes narrowing. "Oriko, you matter. I know you would. Just as much as I know you don't want to die. Nor do you want to lose your powers."

    "I don't," Oriko agrees, eyes narrowing. "Do you have a point to make?"

    "Oriko, you matter more than as a crystal ball," you snap. There's really two issues here, you muse to yourself. Oriko's fatalism, and her fear of losing her powers, all tangled up in one twisty ball of yarn probably informed by her father's ignomnous fall from grace. "You matter as a person, as someone to be loved, to Kirika."

    "Leave her out of this." Oriko bristles, closing her working arm protectively around the other girl.

    "Oriko, it's relevant," you say, folding your arms. "She loves you. Am I wrong? Either of you?"

    Silence.

    You let it stretch for a heartbeat. "You matter to me as a friend," you murmur. "I might be a meddling do-gooder who can't stop herself from interfering, but I do think I've got good intentions and enough knowledge to do good."

    Kirika tucks herself a little more soundly into Oriko's arms, nestling closer with an unhappy little noise.

    "Oriko," you say gently, leaning forward on the table and meeting Oriko's eyes. "The point I want to make, the point I've always been trying to make, is that you are more than your visions, and your Wish is more than your visions."

    Oriko closes her eyes, expression tired. "Then what? My powers are going, and I'm going to die. Not now, but... soon."

    "As we've established, Oriko," you say, a crooked smile tugging at your mouth. "I do not accept that. Between keeping you alive and healthy, or keeping your powers... what do you think I would choose? I mean-" you shrug. "-I'll be honest. I have no idea if it's an either or, or maybe a logical or, but given the choice..."

    "I know," she mutters, exhaling with her eyes still closed. "You've made your position abundantly clear."

    "You don't want to lose your powers, do you?" you ask. "You don't want to die."

    Oriko doesn't respond immediately. Then finally, in a whisper - "I don't. You know I don't."

    "Good," you say. "That's a start."

    "Blind optimism only goes so far," Oriko counters. "Sabrina, I gave up hoping because it's easier. It's just... easier for everyone to just... accept it."

    You lean back in your chair again, propping it up on the two rear legs as you stare up at the ceiling. Fatalism. That's certainly one way of dealing with things - denial, bargaining, anger, depression, acceptance, and all that lovely stuff. This would be acceptance, if you're rolling with that. And you're solidly in the denial phase, of course.

    If there is any to deny, of course. You're not convinced fate is so set in stone.

    Rage, rage against the dying of the light and all.

    You contemplate the idea of more puella magi coming to Mitakihara - if anything, they're going to descend in a swarm. Maybe you could ask Nadia to not tell as many people, and maybe it would work... but word spreads.

    "You know, Oriko," you murmur contemplatively at the somewhat dusty ceiling. If you were actually a maid, you would do something about that. And the cobwebs in the corner. "I might not be a seer, but... I might be a bit of a clairvoyant." You shrug. "Certainly I know things I shouldn't. I dunno for sure. But well... I've told you about another Oriko, one who found her own answer."

    You pop upright on the chair, riding it as it slams back down on four legs, the loud crash startling Kirika. "Just an idea, to start with. I could tell you about her."

    Oriko opens her eyes to stare at you, sea green eyes meeting yours. "And hope that I can learn from another me and that everything changes for the better with just a story?" She shakes her head. "Sabrina, you're not that naive."

    [] Write-in

    =====​

    Ouch.
     
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    • [x]Oh yeah, Oriko? You wanna bet on that?
    -[x]Tell Oriko about the other Oriko.
    --[x]Heck, tell Oriko and Kirika about the other Kirika too, IF it seems like doing so could have a positive effect on the situation.
     
    OK people! Huddle time.

    .... and I need to go back and re-read the debate since we made like no head way.

    I still say a non-direct approach that has Oriko open up to us would work best. But that option may be a no-go now.


    [q] play cards against humanity.
     
    Firnagzen said:
    Oriko doesn't respond immediately. Then finally, in a whisper - "I don't. You know I don't."
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    This is something, at least. One step forward, two steps back maybe, but there was a step.
    Firnagzen said:
    "Sabrina, I gave up hoping because it's easier. It's just... easier for everyone to just... aceept it."
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    "If someone ever tells me it's a mistake to have hope, well, then, I'll just tell them they're wrong. And I'll keep telling them 'til they believe! No matter how many times it takes."
     
    I feel like we're not going about this the right way, but I'm not sure how to fix it.

    ...Doesn't our actions and our existence prove that fatalism is bullshit, atleast?
     
    The real elephant in the room is feathers. As long as Oriko's convinced she's going to die, there's nothing we can say here. Feathers obstructs whatever hope Oriko has for an epiphany.
     
    Madoka-therapy is best therapy.

    ...Homura would shoot down the idea, though.
     
    How about starting with "Oriko, you made your wish to find meaning in your life. You didn't make your wish to save the world. When you made your wish, you didn't even know the world needed saving."

    Again, this is happening because she is rejecting her Wish. Why the fuck aren't we making that the paradigm through which we're having this discussion?
     
    Firnagzen said:
    "And hope that I can learn from another me and that everything changes for the better with just a story?"
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    Exactly why we haven't told her about it until now, I think. :V

    Though to be fair, 'learning from another version of events' totally should be right up Oriko's alley, considering visions and what not.

    Muramasa said:
    The real elephant in the room is feathers. As long as Oriko's convinced she's going to die, there's nothing we can say here.
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    I wonder if Bennouna would be amenable to taking a couple of companions when she comes and leaves... Kirika's parents (not) will understand, I'm sure.

    See, the answer wasn't to run ourselves to the US, it was to send our problems there!
     
    SaltyWaffles said:
    How about starting with "Oriko, you made your wish to find meaning in your life. You didn't make your wish to save the world. When you made your wish, you didn't even know the world needed saving."

    Again, this is happening because she is rejecting her Wish. Why the fuck aren't we making that the paradigm through which we're having this discussion?
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    Because that goes into the whole 'you misinterpreted your wish' which is what set her off in the last update. That's not a winning argument.
     
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