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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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boonerunner said:
I was talking about agency and consequences in terms of cause-and-effect. Oriko burned Sayaka's house, pushed Hitomi down the steps, and blew up a bomb in Sabrina's face. As a direct consequence of these actions, Homura and Sabrina hunted her down, maimed her, and put her under house arrest. The fact that she didn't foresee this is quite beside the point.
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But that doesn't matter for Oriko's agency.

The direct consequence of those actions for Oriko is a long game of cat and mouse where she gets to be the Evil Mastermind that'll ultimately push us all together as a team.

The actual consequences that actually happened are outside that -for her, In any way that matters to Oriko, because they were outside what she could see.

It's like saying you go for a run at a park, then a ROB picks up everybody at that park and makes them fight each other to the death for fun. That ROB decided it was gonna do it before you decided to go for a run, so was you getting in a deathmatch a direct consequence of you doing exercise? Hell, no.

Oriko practically lives inside her visions, so whenever Sabrina changes them, it's the same. Sabrina's disrupting actions are outside causality itself as far as Oriko is concerned. They always take away her agency.

boonerunner said:
Oriko's visions are not absolute. Sabrina's intervention can drastically change things. So what do you think she does when all of the visions look bad?
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Die. That's what she wanted, and that's what she's going for right now. She's getting closer to it, too.
 
Onmur said:
But that doesn't matter for Oriko's agency.

The direct consequence of those actions for Oriko is a long game of cat and mouse where she gets to be the Evil Mastermind that'll ultimately push us all together as a team.

The actual consequences that actually happened are outside that -for her, In any way that matters to Oriko, because they were outside what she could see.

It's like saying you go for a run at a park, then a ROB picks up everybody at that park and makes them fight each other to the death for fun. That ROB decided it was gonna do it before you decided to go for a run, so was you getting in a deathmatch a direct consequence of you doing exercise? Hell, no.
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Um. It's more like someone deciding to steal from the store and assuming that they aren't going to get caught because they didn't see any cameras. When the police show up to arrest them, they don't get to claim that this chain of events is not their fault. They didn't foresee the arrest, but it's still a direct consequence of their actions. Agency is about being able to decisively act in order to attempt to achieve meaningful results, whether or not the actual results are the ones that were desired is beside the point, the ability to act is what makes it agency.

Onmur said:
Oriko practically lives inside her visions, so whenever Sabrina changes them, it's the same. Sabrina's disrupting actions are outside causality itself as far as Oriko is concerned. They always take away her agency.

Oriko's visions are not absolute. Sabrina's intervention can drastically change things. So what do you think she does when all of the visions look bad?
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Die. That's what she wanted, and that's what she's going for right now. She's getting closer to it, too.
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My point is that Sabrina can cause things to happen that are outside of Oriko's visions. So when the visions are uniformly bad, Oriko can call in Sabrina to shake things up and possibly cause a good result that she was unable to see.
 
o3o said:
Guys, people die when they are killed.
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Except when they don't!
AuraTwilight said:
What if, and this is stupid and I know it probably won't work, but can we do like a Grief Inception thing? Like make some sort of Grief device that allows Homura and Oriko to enter like this deep empathic mind-meld thing where they can perfectly understand each other's intentions past the possibility of deceit?

This may require the Soulguca's help; infact it's very likely to. But Homura is so fucking stubborn.
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There are so many ways this could go horribly wrong.
Let's do it.
 
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boonerunner said:
Um. It's more like someone deciding to steal from the store and assuming that they aren't going to get caught because they didn't see any cameras. When the police show up to arrest them, they don't get to claim that this chain of events is not their fault. They didn't foresee the arrest, but it's still a direct consequence of their actions. Agency is about being able to decisively act in order to attempt to achieve meaningful results, whether or not the actual results are the ones that were desired is beside the point, the ability to act is what makes it agency.


My point is that Sabrina can cause things to happen that are outside of Oriko's visions. So when the visions are uniformly bad, Oriko can call in Sabrina to shake things up and possibly cause a good result that she was unable to see.
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What agency means in and of itself doesn't really matter. This is about what Oriko feels.

It's entirely subjective, and she's clearly unsatisfied with the agency she holds.
 
Agent Whiskers said:
Not even Mami? Granted, at best, Homura wouldn't care about getting Sayaka to tolerate Oriko. The more we tell our friends as much of our plans as safely can, the more they can help us. Or stop us from doing something stupid.:V
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I assume we're asking Oriko her opinion about telling the truth to Sayaka, then we're talking it with Mami and Homura at lunch.
 
*runs around trying to make a vote he likes*

I have no idea what to do!

Can we just sit down and talk to *everyone* and get there Points of view on the subject. Start with Oriko, then Kirika, then Mami and then Homura.

.. or something
 
I...

Uh, hey, random thought. What if Akiko's obsession with grief seeds was her looking for Setsuko's witch's grief seed? I mean, it doesn't completely mesh with what we've seen, but...
 
Thought - we all agree the issue is Oriko is rejecting her wish. So perhaps we should try to get her to explain in her own words how she ended up contracting. We are trying to influence a persons behavior without, perhaps, a decent understanding of their own starting position. We had the same issue when we first ran into Oriko - we kept threatening Oriko and got no where since we did not until the end on threatening Kirika.

We figure out where Oriko is coming from (or at least her general platform) and then we can direct our actions more .... accurately.
 
Kaizuki said:
I...

Uh, hey, random thought. What if Akiko's obsession with grief seeds was her looking for Setsuko's witch's grief seed? I mean, it doesn't completely mesh with what we've seen, but...
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I... suspect she already had that particular grief seed, either by witnessing the witchout personally, or hunting down the witch later on. It probably was more of a need to hoard them in the vain hope of eventually doing something with them - getting dewitching working is something I'm almost certain will get Akiko out of her daze.
 
Kaizuki said:
I...

Uh, hey, random thought. What if Akiko's obsession with grief seeds was her looking for Setsuko's witch's grief seed? I mean, it doesn't completely mesh with what we've seen, but...
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At one point she started chanting "safety, security, commodity". It's not exactly a secret what she wanted them for.
 
DB_Explorer said:
Thought - we all agree the issue is Oriko is rejecting her wish. So perhaps we should try to get her to explain in her own words how she ended up contracting. We are trying to influence a persons behavior without, perhaps, a decent understanding of their own starting position. We had the same issue when we first ran into Oriko - we kept threatening Oriko and got no where since we did not until the end on threatening Kirika.

We figure out where Oriko is coming from (or at least her general platform) and then we can direct our actions more .... accurately.
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I think right now is the most open Oriko's been with us,
Firnagzen said:
"How else am I supposed to interpret my visions?" Oriko hisses. "Endless ways for things to go wrong, endless ways for me, for us to die and to fail?"
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She usually doesn't give us a lot of space to change her mind.
 
Ugolino said:
:eyeroll:

It's entirely the point. I think you're barking up the wrong tree if you expect ignoring Homura's actual, concrete concerns to work out because while her worries are somewhat irrational and based on past trauma as much as anything, she's going to need some kind of reassurance to even CONSIDER this.

An approach that boils down to nothing but "trust me pls" was in fact tried. It flopped and would again.
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Late to the party once more, but -

Engage with the point without simply throwing it aside. Assertions are not arguments.
 
All this silence is making me scared of visiting the Homu Home :confused:
If ALL the brain damage moved into a place (virtually) without limits on the expression of said brain damage, I don't think I can handle such a place :oops:
 
LendvaV said:
All this silence is making me scared of visiting the Homu Home :confused:
If ALL the brain damage moved into a place (virtually) without limits on the expression of said brain damage, I don't think I can handle such a place :oops:
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You'll be fine. just dive in and swim. If you can't manage to swim, climb back out and try again later.
Or just skim threadmarks.
 
Well, I've got something to put here just so I don't forget:

Whenever we go talk with Sabrina's friends about how to introduce Sayaka to Oriko and The Truth™, we should remember to ask what Madoka thinks about it.

She is, after all, her Best Friend (until Homu steals her spot but maybe we'll get them to be more than friends now so Sayaka can remain BF with Madoka?) and should know a few things about her we don't.

And counseling us in how to deal with Sayaka is Something Madoka Can Do™, so it's an opportunity for her to contribute.
 
I definitely like the idea of asking Madoka what to do about Sayaka. She's the expert here. Plus this also feeds into plan "make Madoka feel helpful."

But I... I do not feel particularly excited by the idea of telling Madoka about Oriko's arson and then demanding she keep it secret from Sayaka until we figure out how to tell her.

Can we maybe ask vaguely, without mentioning the arson?
(This is making me think of Madoka and Junko's "help her make mistakes" conversation. Turns out giving your daughter nonspecific advice about Sayaka is a Kaname family tradition.)
 
Atosen said:
I definitely like the idea of asking Madoka what to do about Sayaka. She's the expert here. Plus this also feeds into plan "make Madoka feel helpful."

But I... I do not feel particularly excited by the idea of telling Madoka about Oriko's arson and then demanding she keep it secret from Sayaka until we figure out how to tell her.

Can we maybe ask vaguely, without mentioning the arson?
(This is making me think of Madoka and Junko's "help her make mistakes" conversation. Turns out giving your daughter nonspecific advice about Sayaka is a Kaname family tradition.)
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We should be honest with her.

Part of what we should be asking is how and when it would be best to tell Sayaka about it, so we're not asking her to keep it secret, but of course she'll have to wait until such a time.
 
I just found and read the whole of Symmetry Diamond (finally).

I had understood Oriko would learn LZRZ after learning to control her magic fully, but apparently she could LZRZ all along, just couldn't spare the magic due to her out of control visions. So can our Oriko LZRZ already? I feel silly.

Also, Sasa Yuuki insta-suicides due to Witchbomb. I'm pretty sure somebody mentioned this before, but it bears repeating.

And Yuma's got grandparents that take her in after she calls them, after Oriko convinces her to call for help (would they take an extra Koko?).
 
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