Do we have other examples of Puella who have crumbled in a similar vein to Oriko?
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
EvaUnit01
Kept you waiting, huh?
...would "force Oriko to promise to never ever EVER target Madoka Kaname, while holding Kirika at gunpoint" suffice?
Worth it.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
... Plan ignore the fatalistic cynic and have a nice chat with Best Buddy is go?
No. Oriko can hurt far more than Madoka. Sabrina, for one.
Working on another vote-mess-thing, but while I'm chipping away at that I want to remind you all that we know Feathers can be beaten, because it's already been done, and Oriko's the one who did it(not in the best of ways, granted, but she still did it). And the same thing that was supposed to kill Sayaka is what's supposed to kill her.
By all means, bring Kirika into this, but work the above in somehow; shattering that veneer of inevitability will likely smash a few cracks open.
By all means, bring Kirika into this, but work the above in somehow; shattering that veneer of inevitability will likely smash a few cracks open.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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- She/Her
[] I actually wanted to just tell Kirika, but since you're here I figured I might as well ask.
...Which Oriko also seems to be angling for.
Homura and Oriko actually agree on what to do with Oriko.
The release of death.
...Which Oriko also seems to be angling for.
Homura and Oriko actually agree on what to do with Oriko.
Oh, well, if she promises.
Unless that was a Xanatos Gambit...
EvaUnit01
Kept you waiting, huh?
Yeah, but Madoka is what Homura cares about more than anything/anyone else. Even us, in all likelihood.
I think the thread to pull at from the conversation is that she's afraid to hope. It's the point that seems to get through to her the most out of everything we've said.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Little typo.
[] It's not easier for us. We can't not hope.
Nobody more trustworthy than Oriko Mikuni.
Of course she does. But Homura's never ditched the rest of the World for Madoka.
EvaUnit01
Kept you waiting, huh?
....well, we don't have to get Oriko out of her house arrest all at once, do we?
Like, we could maybe try and negotiate for an hour a week. An hour during which we, and Homura if she wants, and maybe even super-badass Mami Tomoe, whom Homura KNOWS does not get on well with Oriko and distrusts her, will stick to Oriko like white on rice to ensure that she doesn't try to shenanigan us.
Y'know.
Baby steps.
Like, we could maybe try and negotiate for an hour a week. An hour during which we, and Homura if she wants, and maybe even super-badass Mami Tomoe, whom Homura KNOWS does not get on well with Oriko and distrusts her, will stick to Oriko like white on rice to ensure that she doesn't try to shenanigan us.
Y'know.
Baby steps.
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- Canada
Uh, that's sarcasm right?
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
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- San Diego, California
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- He/Him
.... its like enchantment!
She never studies enchantment since she can see her failure and thus does not study leading to her to fail enchantment.
Self fulfilling prophecy.
She never studies enchantment since she can see her failure and thus does not study leading to her to fail enchantment.
Self fulfilling prophecy.
I agree with this.
It's certainly a subject to bring up today, and one largely relevant with the whole,
"Well i'm already spending my afternoons here, can't I take them for walks?"
Let's talk with Mami about it first, before we bring it to Homura.
I think both of them have a good idea of how important these two are to us, and I'd bet it's causing an internal conflict with both of them.
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Muramasa
Best Girl
Giving Oriko more agency is addressing a symptom. The core problem is the fatalism. It's fueling all of this.
FelOnyx
Love and Peace!
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- Gunsmoke
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- He/Him
Well not knowingly. She doesn't know how the loops work.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
[] I know... And I know you can't cheat an epiphany like that, but it's not too different from your visions. Shrug. Offer's open.
[] That aside, you might find it easier to give up on hope... but it's not the same for me. I can't not hope things will work out in the end... It's never wrong to hope...
[] Ignore Oriko, engage Kirika.
-[] How's she doing? This must be hard on her.
Even after Rebellion, she tries to give them a happy life.
[] That aside, you might find it easier to give up on hope... but it's not the same for me. I can't not hope things will work out in the end... It's never wrong to hope...
[] Ignore Oriko, engage Kirika.
-[] How's she doing? This must be hard on her.
No. She might do more for Madoka than anybody else, but she never really abandons the rest of her friends; she tries to help them, even knowing she'll get hurt doing so.
Even after Rebellion, she tries to give them a happy life.
It can't hurt though. We can't give Oriko a speech and just expect her to change. Here or elsewhere. All we can do is get her to think about it.
Muramasa
Best Girl
...I'm not sure how this is supposed to help. I don't think we should be dropping this argument.
EvaUnit01
Kept you waiting, huh?
I get that. But since I can't quite seem to hit the mark on the step we're taking now, I'm trying to plan out the next couple of steps ahead.
Call it fatalism if you wish, but I don't see us getting things to work out the way we want them to just over the course of this conversation. If I try and think out to the next couple of days, however, then I think there might be some slightly greater chance at achieving our goal to Save Oriko's Soul.
...oh, come on, you know the S.O.S. is catchy!
Agreed. We should be cautious of over entrenching in the argument, like we've done before, but it's too early to disengage.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
OK question.
When we act Oriko's visions change
Thus her visions are not concrete
Thus her visions of death and doom are not concrete.
Thus her visions of death can be changed.
Thus her death can be stopped.
"And how can a girl die better, than facing fearful odds, for the hopes of her friends, and for control of the reins of fate."
When we act Oriko's visions change
Thus her visions are not concrete
Thus her visions of death and doom are not concrete.
Thus her visions of death can be changed.
Thus her death can be stopped.
"And how can a girl die better, than facing fearful odds, for the hopes of her friends, and for control of the reins of fate."
We've tried "you matter" already, but yeah.
Well, of course she's afraid. When you hope you open yourself for crushing disappointment, misery, and failure. Except just giving in makes failure a guarantee instead of a strong possibility. And just because you give in to cynicism, doesn't mean that it will hurt any less. Instead it might make it worse for her since she'll probably die wondering if there really was nothing that she could have done. And she would die knowing that she just allowed the most important person in her life to be miserable without even fighting.
She can't just stop hoping or caring. Otherwise she wouldn't even be feeling this. She just would have just cleanly accepted this. So she can either stay miserable and just wait to die and lose everything, or she can actively struggle and hope.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
It's kind of hard to give Oriko hope, more when we consider our zero progress on the Homura-Oriko relationship.
We did promise to do what we could, and our progress with the Mami-Oriko doesn't really help here.
Unless getting Mami's support in talking Homura into releasing Oriko would actually help, I guess...
Point is, we're already failing Oriko, so it's hard to trust us, here.
Sometimes, I'd rather cut my losses before I lose more than I can afford... plus, if we try to push Oriko too much without some downtime, even if that downtime consists of a five minutes talk with Best Buddy, it's gonna be hard for her to actually consider our words.
Of course, if we actually find a good way to approach this issue, we can go for that. Not actually voting yet.
But go and make Oriko accept that. She basically doesn't like to think that the future can't be dictated by her visions, and to be fair, our changing those visions do cause her physical pain... well, not with the ring, but you get the idea.
EvaUnit01
Kept you waiting, huh?
You are saying words.
They make sense.
I like.
I am reminded of something badass Auron said in FFX during a critical climactic moment:
"What will you choose?! Die, and be free of pain?! Or live, and fight your sorrow?!"
Swap "die" and "live" for "despair" and "hope", and it's more or less kinda-sorta the same kind of idea.