Meh, I still think we could come up with a wish to solve everything like "no more magic in anyway shape or form" but I won't bring it up again. Mostly because using an instant win button wouldn't be fun.
Narrative convention dictates that we can't use a lawyer wish to win forever, or else Firnagzen will be mad. So we can't do it.



(Us having to follow Narrative Conventions has had a direct effect on the plot that other people can point out and question us on without us being able to give a good answer about it besides "It'd make the plot really short". Walpurgisnacht who was Dedolere who was just constantly throwing the fight for Madoka Intensifies).
 
Mami ded/sooljinturngreefsid = bad end
Madoka ded/sooljinturngreefsid = bad end
Homura ded/sooljinturngreefsid = bad end
Godoka = bad end
Being kidnapped by incubators = bad end
Becoming witch = wait arent we a witch already :confused:
 
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Well, we can make Barriers already. The next thing to do is to make familiars, have them passively drain ambient grief and grief from soul gems...
 
Meh, I still think we could come up with a wish to solve everything like "no more magic in anyway shape or form" but I won't bring it up again. Mostly because using an instant win button wouldn't be fun.
Kills the world, I'm pretty sure. Magic is an external manifestation of the Soul. Humans can't operate without them, we know. No Magic=No Souls=Everyone Dies.
 
For gods sake, we are not a witch.

Our witch is Dedolere, and as far as I'm aware witches cannot witchout a second time if their grief seed fills with grief. The same witch may respawn if the witch was defeated, but I'm unaware of a witch mutating into an entirely different witch. Witches also don't show any signs of sentience, compassion, or intelligence outside of perhaps, battle instinct and leftovers from their lives as magical girls. Furthermore, Sabrina doesn't suck people into her barrier to eat their souls or emotions or whatever witches do to their victims.
 
For gods sake, we are not a witch.

Our witch is Dedolere, and as far as I'm aware witches cannot witchout a second time if their grief seed fills with grief. The same witch may respawn if the witch was defeated, but I'm unaware of a witch mutating into an entirely different witch. Witches also don't show any signs of sentience, compassion, or intelligence outside of perhaps, battle instinct and leftovers from their lives as magical girls. Furthermore, Sabrina doesn't suck people into her barrier to eat their souls or emotions or whatever witches do to their victims.
Arguable...honestly, all Puella Magi are simply developing Witches. So, yes, we're a Witch. We're just one who's able to use the abilities of her adult form while still in our intermediate developmental phase (human->puella magi->mature witch), due to an anomaly in our development (caused by our Wish).
 
For gods sake, we are not a witch.

Our witch is Dedolere, and as far as I'm aware witches cannot witchout a second time if their grief seed fills with grief. The same witch may respawn if the witch was defeated, but I'm unaware of a witch mutating into an entirely different witch. Witches also don't show any signs of sentience, compassion, or intelligence outside of perhaps, battle instinct and leftovers from their lives as magical girls. Furthermore, Sabrina doesn't suck people into her barrier to eat their souls or emotions or whatever witches do to their victims.
We are just very mature for our age, that's all... :V
 
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Kazumi is a canonical example of a Witch that could Witch out, so that means nothing.

Also: Godoka is a bad end because it's extremely likely Sabrina will be retconned into non-existence.

All the good we've done will cease to be. Mami will be alone. Homura will never trust anyone again. Oriko will never try to find her own meaning. The Sendai situation remains fucked. Masami is probably dead. Nagisa contracts and DIES. Sayaka contracts and DIES. Madoka never existed.
 
Kazumi is a canonical example of a Witch that could Witch out, so that means nothing.

Also: Godoka is a bad end because it's extremely likely Sabrina will be retconned into non-existence.

All the good we've done will cease to be. Mami will be alone. Homura will never trust anyone again. Oriko will never try to find her own meaning. The Sendai situation remains fucked. Masami is probably dead. Nagisa contracts and DIES. Sayaka contracts and DIES. Madoka never existed.
Are you talking about the clones of a magical girl who already witched out and witched out from the memories? I'm looking at the wiki, but I don't see anything about the protagonist clone witching out and then witching out again... unless you mean the weird fake grief seed stuff? Either way, we haven't gone through the witchout process, we have no evidence we are a clone, and we haven't encountered any evil nuts.


Arguable...honestly, all Puella Magi are simply developing Witches. So, yes, we're a Witch. We're just one who's able to use the abilities of her adult form while still in our intermediate developmental phase (human->puella magi->mature witch), due to an anomaly in our development (caused by our Wish).
But the existence of familiars who become witches mean that there are witches that never existed as magical girls - could they be considered a separate phenomena that is caused by a magical girl, rather then the "adult" form of a magical girl? Hard to say since we don't know the exact mechanics of witchdom (do they have the original personality of the girl, who was just driven insane? We do see some hints of this - Oktavia's barrier, Margot defending Oriko [Is this because of her wish?], but is this truly reflective of the mind influencing the grief or simply an "imprint" so to speak? After all, familiars will become copies of the witch, so that indicates that the latter - given that they grow by eating other separate humans, they should have different influences on their collective mind assuming they aren't just clones of the girl.

In that case, what about girls who simply witched out from just overuse of magic rather then despair? Or something along the lines of being unconscious when they witched out? What does that mean for fully developed familiars - are they copies of the girls personality? The chicken familiar we tried controlling earlier mindcrushed us, but...?)

Either way, the "intermediate" form of something is certainly not equal to the final result. A boy will grow into a man, doesn't mean a 6 year old gets to drive. Megucas certainly turn into witches, but until they are, then they're themselves. (And we can put it off indefinitely, so...)
 
It works fine for the Incubators.

I don't believe they reproduce sexually. Also, as a hivemind of drones, reproduction has significant, personal benefit not tied to emotions.



Possible, but that's speculation and we now have an implication that we needed help having the emotional motivation to hope for something better than our current lot in existence.
I still think that that explanation raises more problems than it solves.



She also specified no such thing in her wish, and Kyubey doesn't seem particularly perplexed by the existence of Wraiths like he does the vanishment of corrupted Soul Gems.

Intention counts more than words, her wish specified that witches needed to be able to be just about to be born, requiring meguca, which requires a similar setup, and Kyuubey isn't uprised as we only see him after he's known about them for tens of thousands of years.



Mami's speeches about how they feed on misery and despair, and the pain of sick people.

Seemed to be indicating people directly rather than environmentally to me.

Charlotte's quickening and hatching despite no hints of having been used by a Meguca (The idea of Grief Seeds filling up on their own is Firn's fanon, mind you).

It's my fanon too and I've had it since I first saw that episode.

The fact that Witches Witch Kiss people into being self-destructively depressed at all.

I interpret witch kisses as the witch dumping grief into others in an attempt to ease their own pain. And that this was designed by the Incubators to add more sources of energy.



Animal instincts. Hormones. Beastial lust isn't necessarily connected to magical, spiritually endowed Rabu from the kokoro.

Lust is an emotion.


Godoka is canon end. In which case, why are we here?

That raises a good question. Why don't we just get Madoka to make her canon wish? Or a better one? Like wishing away all magic or wishing the incubators didn't exist or something? Those two suggestions have their problems but I'm sure we could come up with better ones.

See above basically.

More like Madoka making a half-decent wish makes the whole quest a massive exercise in futility, but yes.

This.

Also: Godoka is a bad end because it's extremely likely Sabrina will be retconned into non-existence.

I don't believe she'd do that.

All the good we've done will cease to be. Mami will be alone.

No. She'll be with Kyouko as can be seen at the end of the final.

Homura will never trust anyone again.

Rebellion's an issue, but I still say the only way it makes sense is as part f Modoka's plan, so I bet she has a way of helping Homura.

Oriko will never try to find her own meaning.

Why not? She still has the opportunity to wish (I actually suspect that you are right in your quest that her powers will change to being able to communicate with Madokami. I've considered including her in such a fashion should I do anything PMMM related in a quest or fanfic.)

The Sendai situation remains fucked.
A lot less than it is here if it is at all. If what caused Akiko to become bonkers was her girlfriend witching out, well that doesn't happen. Nor d any of he combatants witchout. Also, grief cubes are a lot easier to supply and share than grief seeds.

Masami is probably dead.

Unless the easier nature of collecting grief cubes and Akiko being less nuts means that they could have more easily come to an agreement.

Nagisa contracts and DIES. Sayaka contracts and DIES. Madoka never existed.

True. Sayaka is happy that way though. (And Nagisa seemed pretty happy that way too)
 
o3o said:
Are you talking about the clones of a magical girl who already witched out and witched out from the memories? I'm looking at the wiki, but I don't see anything about the protagonist clone witching out and then witching out again... unless you mean the weird fake grief seed stuff? Either way, we haven't gone through the witchout process, we have no evidence we are a clone, and we haven't encountered any evil nuts.

I mean that the Kazumi clones were never NOT Witches. They're witches tricked into thinking they're not, and they're capable of witching out/giving into their former nature. It could be argued Sabrina is in a similar situation if one were inclined.

Sereg said:
I don't believe they reproduce sexually. Also, as a hivemind of drones, reproduction has significant, personal benefit not tied to emotions.

Well, this is pretty much pure conjecture. But there are creatures that reproduce sexually and don't seem to have much emotional capacity. Bugs for example. Or fish. Our hypothetical emotionless humans could be pursuing pure genetic instinct.

Intention counts more than words, her wish specified that witches needed to be able to be just about to be born, requiring meguca, which requires a similar setup, and Kyuubey isn't uprised as we only see him after he's known about them for tens of thousands of years.

He's still surprised/bothered about Soul Gems after tends of thousands of years, this doesn't really hold up.

Seemed to be indicating people directly rather than environmentally to me.

Is there a meaningful difference? Both universes imply a negative energy radiation on a negligible level that can be fed on, and Firn seems to have confirmed it since we can dismiss grief into the ambient atmosphere with no ill effects.

I interpret witch kisses as the witch dumping grief into others in an attempt to ease their own pain. And that this was designed by the Incubators to add more sources of energy.

Maybe, but they're still feasting on the despair and pain of the humans they Kiss.


Yea, human lust is. I specified beastial lust to specify the unconscious and non-emotional instinct driven purely by our loins.

You can get boners without feeling emotions about it.

I don't believe she'd do that.

It's not fucking up to her. Madokami doesn't get to pick or choose, as she says to Sayaka herself. She can either save specific people or she can delete witches and let causality fall as it may.

No. She'll be with Kyouko as can be seen at the end of the final.

Arguable. They're not on very friendly terms according to Wraith Arc, barely tolerating each other because of nostalgia and a need to cooperate.

Why not? She still has the opportunity to wish (I actually suspect that you are right in your quest that her powers will change to being able to communicate with Madokami. I've considered including her in such a fashion should I do anything PMMM related in a quest or fanfic.)

The only time Oriko canonically finds her sense of self-agency is against a bitch who controls witches. So...

A lot less than it is here if it is at all. If what caused Akiko to become bonkers was her girlfriend witching out, well that doesn't happen. Nor d any of he combatants witchout. Also, grief cubes are a lot easier to supply and share than grief seeds.

Grief Cubes also aren't as efficient, needing several of them to cleanse one gem, and we can't say Akiko won't go bonkers over her girlfriend just vanishing into thin air.
 
Well, this is pretty much pure conjecture.

Yes. What I say is conjecture. What I don't get is how what I claim is conjecture, but what you claim isn't.

But there are creatures that reproduce sexually and don't seem to have much emotional capacity. Bugs for example. Or fish.

Not having much emotional capacity is not the same as being completely emotionless.

Our hypothetical emotionless humans could be pursuing pure genetic instinct.

We have lust because of genetic instinct. That's how the instinct operates. If the last step in the process doesn't work, then using the first step in the process as an explanation doesn't hold.

Instinct is why we have emotions. Instinct isn't an explanation unless you can come up with a way other than emotions for the instinct to operate. Actions happen because of three proximal causes:

1. Because we decide that it's a good idea

2. Because it's an emotional response

3. Because it's a reflex action as an automatic response to a stimulus that doesn't involve the brain at all.

Instinct is a less proximal cause, but for it to work it needs to be channeled through one of these three unless you can come up with a fourth proximal cause.

If we are emotionless, 2 isn't an option. I don't see how 1 would result in reproduction in a sexually reproducing species and sex is simply far too complicated an action for me to consider 3 a possibility.


He's still surprised/bothered about Soul Gems after tends of thousands of years, this doesn't really hold up.

But he doesn't show that all the time, so there's no reason to believe that he finds wraiths any less surprising than Soul Gems.



Is there a meaningful difference? Both universes imply a negative energy radiation on a negligible level that can be fed on, and Firn seems to have confirmed it since we can dismiss grief into the ambient atmosphere with no ill effects.

The difference is that I don't believe there is a negative energy radiation that can be fed on in the witchverse. I believe that they fed on humans directly and there is nothing in the atmosphere for them to feed on.



Maybe, but they're still feasting on the despair and pain of the humans they Kiss.

Yes. But they're incapable of feeding on despair floating in the background. Because there isn't any.



Yea, human lust is. I specified beastial lust to specify the unconscious and non-emotional instinct driven purely by our loins.
See above. Bestial lust is still an emotion. It being less cultured/complicated/structured/intense etc. than human lust is irrelevent. No emotions means no emotions.

You can get boners without feeling emotions about it.

You can. This is true. You also have no desire to have sex when this happens.



It's not fucking up to her. Madokami doesn't get to pick or choose, as she says to Sayaka herself. She can either save specific people or she can delete witches and let causality fall as it may.
Madokami said to Sayaka herself that she is fully capable of picking and choosing. She told Sayaka that she could have easily rewritten reality to save her life and decided not to.



Arguable. They're not on very friendly terms according to Wraith Arc, barely tolerating each other because of nostalgia and a need to cooperate.

Admittedly, I've only read the first chapter so far (I should try track down the rest). But fine. Arguable.



The only time Oriko canonically finds her sense of self-agency is against a bitch who controls witches. So...

She also mind-whammies meguca (who still exist) right?



Grief Cubes also aren't as efficient, needing several of them to cleanse one gem, and we can't say Akiko won't go bonkers over her girlfriend just vanishing into thin air.

This is true. But

A: Grief cubes are also easier to share

B: We can't say she will either.

Also, I may be wrong (I really suck at working this stuff out) but your last few posts make you seem angry. I'm sorry if I have angered you.
 
Also, Grief Cubes come from demons/wraiths made from ambient grief, not from fallen Magical Girls...
 
Well... I don't know what.

(Recording start)

(Sound of door opening)

"Hello, Mami, Homura. How's it going?"

(Sound of footsteps, a door closing, and some chairs being moved)

"It's been a while. It's nice to see you."

"Hi."

"You've been eating well? It's good to s-"

"S-Sabrina."

"Yes, Mami?"

(A few seconds pass in silence)

"I... I wanted to just... keep to o-our... previous conversation, OK?"

"Whatever you need, Mami."

(Sound of paper shuffling)

"Then, first..."

"How are you?"

"I'm doing fine, thanks... A little bored, but nothing I can't deal with, after all we-"

"U-um... C-can we keep t-this...?"

"Ah, right, sorry Mami. Go on."

"Ri... Right. First, we have some con... concerns about some things y-you said last time. If you-you could... clarify for us...?"

(No verbal answer is given)

"Then... Y-you said... you could have... Wished Ky-Kyuubey, away, right?"

"Yes and no."

"W-What do you mean by that?"

"Well, I had the potential, certainly, but it wasn't something I could Wish for."

"Explain."

"There would've been no point, you know? I had a purpose here, and just Wishing here away wouldn't have made sense, right?"

"Purpose?"

"Ah, you know this already. I was here to break systems and hug megucas, and I would've been all out of of sys-"

"S-Sabrina."

"Sorry. I mean I had a... mission, you could say, to destroy that wretched system the Incubators made."

"Why not Wish it away?"

"There would've been no point, then. It's like starting a show and cutting right to the end, it's not what I was here for."

"B-but... it would've made everything... better."

(Sound of cloth moving) "Maybe."

(A long silence)

"So, how's everyone doing?"

"Fine."

"Did you buy Madoka that chair?"

"Yes. She liked it."

"Good. Hey, can I send a letter to someone? Or two someones?"

(Sound of paper shuffling)

"Thanks." (Sound of scribbling)

"Done."

(Sound of paper shuffling)

(Slience)

"I know you don't like them, but please?"

(Sound of paper being folded)

"Thank you."

"M-moving on..."

"Sure."

"You've said... y-you could break free anytime you wanted."

"Yes."

"That you... you're always holding b-back."

"Right."

"D-does this... Is this about your... p-powers?"

"Mmm... not really."

"Clarify."

"I mean, kind of? My powers are a big part of it-"

"Y-you haven't... made any m-more f-f... familiars?"

"Eh, they're not really familiars, more automated contructs-"

(Sound of somebody shifting)

"... No, I haven't."

(Sound of scribbling)

"And your B-Barrier..."

"You know I haven't."

(Sound of scribbling)

"A-and have y-you... ever tried W-Wi... Witch K-Kissing someone?"

"No! You know I wouldn't..."

"Enough."

(Sound of scribbling)

"Sorry."

"... It's fine. Go on?"

"Holding back."

"Ah, yes. It's more about methods than powers. I mean, my powers are a big part of it, but there's just... things I could've have done, but didn't..."

"O-o-out of concern?"

"... Partially. I guess... I've taken risks. But they paid off, didn't they?"

"I-I..."

"Yes."

"See? It's all good."

"Could've been more careful. Specially with..."

"Eh, things worked out in the end."

"Savior complex."

"Terminator."

"... Air head."

"Gasp!" (Sound of cloth shifting) "You wound me, Homura-chan!"

(Sound of clearing throat)

"A-about... your 'Savior Complex'... D-did it... a-a-always have to be y... You?"

"What do you mean?"

"Y-you had... have a tendency to..."

"Distrust others."

(Silence)

"Uh... well, I don't think that's true. I mean, I made the networking, divided tasks and all, right?"

"You made it."

"Somebody had to."

"S-Sabrina... this isn't something any-body else would've noticed. Y-you have a... a thing to t-take matters into y-your own hands..."

"Only when there's nobody else who can."

(Sound of someone shifting)

"When I don't know there's someone else who can."

"That's rather... c-convenient."

(Sound of huffing) "What do you expect me to do? Call God for help? There's just so many-"

"Can you?"

"Can I what?"

"Call God."

"Where does this come from?"

"There's..." (Silence)

"Wow, so confident in me, aren't you? Thank you."

"A-answer the q-question, please."

"... Yes."

(Silence)

"W-w-what does t-that...?"

"Was that why you did it?"

"Hm?"

"Why you ended... here."

"Ah, I guess? No, not really. It's just that... well, you wouldn't have liked it, for one."

"W-we...?"

"No."

"Me?"

"... You."

(Silence)

"Can I have a glass of water?"

(Sound of water being poured, followed by sound of glass knocking on wood)

"Thanks."

"So-so you... h-had to sol-solve everyt-thing y-yourself b-bec..."

"Mami."

"... because..."

"Deep breaths, Mami. Here, drink."

(Sound of deep breathing, followed by glass knocking on wood, then sound of pouring water)

"S-so you had to... do what you d-did, because i-it had to be you, and Homura wouldn't have liked it if... you c-called... 'God' for help?"

"I guess."

"What else?"

"I'm not sure... but I don't know if I would have... kept on existing, had I done that."

"This is about...?"

"Yeah."

"Y-you mean y-you would have... d-d-died?"

"Maybe? I don't really think so, but the possibility is there, I guess."

"S-Sabrina... What does this... a-all mean? I..."

"We're done."

(Sound of paper shuffling)

"H-Homura-"

(Sound of chair moving)

"Thank you for your time, Sabrina."

"Thank you for yours, Homura, Mami."

"Anything else you need?"

"A hug?"

(Sound of footsteps, followed by sound of cloth rustling)

"You take care of youself, OK?"

(Sound of cloth rustling, followed by footsteps)

(Sound of door opening)

"You too."

(Footsteps fading away)

"Mami?"

(Sound of slow sighing, followed by sound of chair scrapping against floor)

"W-well... g-good night, Sabrina. S-see you next time?"

(Sound of chuckling) "I'll be here."

(Sound of footsteps)

"See you, Mami."

(Sound of door closing)

(Recording end)
 
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Madokami said to Sayaka herself that she is fully capable of picking and choosing. She told Sayaka that she could have easily rewritten reality to save her life and decided not to.

PMMMEp12 said:
In order to save you, I wouldn't have had any choice but to make it so nothing ever happened.
Except if I did that, this version of the future would disappear too.
But I had a feeling that's not really what you wanted to happen
Your wish and how hard you tried because of it is really precious to me - I don't think it was pointless in the end at all. So that's why...
Eh...well, she specifically said she could have saved Sayaka, but if she did she would have had to negate the fact that she contracted and whatnot. She couldn't save Sayaka without removing violindude's healing, and therefore she has (at least some) limits.

A: Save Sayaka, she never contracted. violindude no healing.
B: Things stay as they were, more or less. Dead blueberry, happy violindude.

She could not perform
C: Save Sayaka, heal violin dude anyways.
And therefore cannot be (completely) omnipotent, though there's no denying she's a reality warper of incredible power.
I mean that the Kazumi clones were never NOT Witches. They're witches tricked into thinking they're not, and they're capable of witching out/giving into their former nature. It could be argued Sabrina is in a similar situation if one were inclined.
Having not read the Kazumi Manga - did they have grief seeds and barriers and whatnot from the beginning? Or did they have soul gems and witch out normally?
 
A: Save Sayaka, she never contracted. violindude no healing.
B: Things stay as they were, more or less. Dead blueberry, happy violindude.

She could not perform
C: Save Sayaka, heal violin dude anyways.
And therefore cannot be (completely) omnipotent, though there's no denying she's a reality warper of incredible power.
That seems to be quite strange in the limits. She can fuck with the Incubators' grief seed system and bring back the dead, but she can't heal violin dude's hand while keeping Sayaka alive/non-contracted (a much simpler task imo)? Doesn't mesh to me.
 
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