Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Except you have no guarantee the added parts of your vote would have accomplished what you claim it would have.
It'd have had a better lead-in, worked better for characterization, and I've already stated that the Whiskers outline was our best bet for a working vote.
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- Location
- spinning
As a condolence, have a vote and do know that I do see a reason against picking it up and swinging: Homura might be annoyed
[x] Ugolino
It also burned my eyes, which was why I didn't even read it. Please don't use bold and bright red like that together next time?
It had pick up the Katana and keep it for later.
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TJSomething
That's... that's impossible!
[X] Ugolino
- Location
- East of the Sun and West of the Moon
If we really need one we can make one out of grief.
*glances at @Sayaka*
Weeeeeeeeelll...
Also, RE: Katana:
[X] Acquire katana
[X] Name it Muramasa
[X] Give to Sayaka
- Location
- ⇙
[x] Muramasa
We could make a better katana out of grief anyway.
We could make a better katana out of grief anyway.
Actually...re: Sabrina having Mary Sue traits, there's something interesting to be said there. tl;dr follows.
Let's talk about Mary Sue. Impossibly perfect personalities, unique powers that don't fit the setting, making canon characters orbit around her, succeeding against impossible odds in ways that only work through plot fiat...
Is Sabrina a Mary Sue? I'd argue no.
Mary Sue's most annoying feature isn't having unique powers or not fitting the setting. The former is fairly common for protagonists (just look at Madoka or Homura) and the latter is kind of the character's essential conceit, at least where the origin story is concerned. (And as I'll mention later, her arc so far very much does work as a PMMM story.)
Mary Sue is annoying because she succeeds in a way that doesn't make sense given the scenario, and in a way that upstages canonical accomplishments. The namesake's feats in Starfleet are the essential example. Bad Eva OCs that get everything right and impress everyone, humiliate Gendo and expose the conspiracy. Potter sues that upstage that evil Dumbledore and whatnot. The other thing about Mary Sue is lack of consequences...and we've had plenty of those.
Sabrina is implausibly perfect as a human being? Well. Superficially, yes, but in depth not so much.
Take Sabrina at the start. She's a blank slate. She doesn't have anything in her head except random facts about these people- facts that on the whole make her inclined to like them and want them to do well. She meets some of those people, and they (accidentally) save her life. What does she do? She lies to them. Plays the part of the brain damaged ignorant newbie she appears to be.
For their own best interests, sure, and she's quite aware of it, but she puts on a poker face from the first words she says and never quite takes it off. She meets Mami. She keeps playing the newbie. She meets Homura. She tells her a little more, but keeps the important parts to herself. She decides to go with Mami when she can't have her cake and eat it to...but largely because Mami is more at risk, and because it lets her stop her from further dragging Madoka and Sayaka into things. Actual concern for Mami and wanting to be with her definitely enter into it, to the point of being the main reason...But they weren't the only reason.
She likes people- especially the canon cast- but she doesn't trust them very much, not least of which with their own welfare. She's manipulative- extremely so at times. This was fairly blatant during the 'going Gilgamesh' incident. Concern for keeping them safe outweighed them making their own choices.
It's especially notable where the canon cast is involved because she constantly, unrepentantly uses her knowledge of their pasts and character to play them. It can be something as small as making a calculated decision to call Mami senpai, or nudging at the issues with Sayaka's crush, or as large as promising Mami she won't be alone...but the fact is she's using knowledge she has no right to know to try and get them to do what she wants and just what she wants.
She outright played Mami from the very beginning, and still hasn't admitted it to her.
She eventually tells Mami the truth about Kyubey and soul gems. This is still partially calculated, even if it's something she thinks she deserves to know about and meant to be for her own good. (Which is something that keeps coming up. Sabrina does things that she thinks are best for everyone, with letting them know about what she's actually thinking or doing being a secondary concern.)
Only now she hurt her, badly, and has to try and deal with the aftermath of that and piece Mami's psyche back together/do damage control. She tells herself it was for the best, and that Kyubey would have been worse...But Mami's still broken.
Personality? Well, yes, she's chipper in general, to the point where Homura's shocked but again, she's keeping a poker face on. She is genuinely happy at times, but as often as not lately, she's been cheerful because that's what she thinks the others need, mostly Mami. There's an ironic parallel to be made there with putting on a brave face and feeling like she can't be honest. Yes, we literally made Sabrina into diet Mami at points, at least where interactions are concerned. The same goes for how we talk to Homura, to an extent, and her 'We will succeed/things will go well' mantra.
Sabrina can be outright vicious at times, and it isn't treated by the narrative as a good thing. It's outright unpleasant for some of the characters watching. However justified it was, she definitely enjoyed the beatdown and rant at the end of the Sendai incident a bit too much. She enjoyed watching Akiko's breakdown. This is pretty much what was shown word for word there. She had the decency to realize it was wrong, though.
She threatened to witch out Kirika to get what she wanted, to the point where Homura was appalled. Yes, she had the best intentions (seeing a pattern?) but that is something downright horrifying to do given what it involves. Pretty sure no one but Homu would look at her the same way if they knew about that little scene.
Of course, SV and quest chatter being what it is...Sabrina has enough self-awareness to recognize her flaws. By which I mean she has well-concealed insecurity, uncertainty, and borderline self-loathing at times to the point where she's comparable to Sayaka on a moderately bad day. She relies on her metaknowledge- albeit not as badly as Homura does- and can be badly wrong-footed when it turns out to be unreliable (Oriko and Kirika's wish, her obsession with Elsa Maria). She desperately, desperately wants the canon cast to like her because she thinks they're good people and largely admires them. She takes setbacks and failures very badly...and I'll note that on the whole, we haven't drastically failed yet. Sabrina, in a lot of ways, is fatally flawed.
What happens when she fails to the point where a canon character (let alone, say, Mami) completely rejects her? Or she actively makes things worse through her actions? Her powers mean she probably won't witch but....
Given her personality so far, I'd go so far as to say that we'd be dead meat with practically any other wish. This is a setting where compromises are necessary and Pyrrhic victories are often the best someone can hope for...and Sabrina is someone who is borderline obsessive about succeeding at everything, is easily lured out by a chance to help- and she does want herself to be the one to help, always, which says things about her ego- and can't take failure well...and insists on actively intervening.
In a lot of ways, Homura's view of us is wrong. We're not Madoka 2.0. We're a less-judgmental Sayaka with a power boost.
I'll note that all of this is a good thing from a story POV. We don't want Sabrina to be a Sue.
And we're still in the 'early' stages if we look at PMAS as following the same basic arc as the series. (Introduction, hope spot, everything goes to hell in a handbasket, rinse and repeat)
Is Sabrina a Mary Sue? I'd argue no.
Mary Sue's most annoying feature isn't having unique powers or not fitting the setting. The former is fairly common for protagonists (just look at Madoka or Homura) and the latter is kind of the character's essential conceit, at least where the origin story is concerned. (And as I'll mention later, her arc so far very much does work as a PMMM story.)
Mary Sue is annoying because she succeeds in a way that doesn't make sense given the scenario, and in a way that upstages canonical accomplishments. The namesake's feats in Starfleet are the essential example. Bad Eva OCs that get everything right and impress everyone, humiliate Gendo and expose the conspiracy. Potter sues that upstage that evil Dumbledore and whatnot. The other thing about Mary Sue is lack of consequences...and we've had plenty of those.
Sabrina is implausibly perfect as a human being? Well. Superficially, yes, but in depth not so much.
Take Sabrina at the start. She's a blank slate. She doesn't have anything in her head except random facts about these people- facts that on the whole make her inclined to like them and want them to do well. She meets some of those people, and they (accidentally) save her life. What does she do? She lies to them. Plays the part of the brain damaged ignorant newbie she appears to be.
For their own best interests, sure, and she's quite aware of it, but she puts on a poker face from the first words she says and never quite takes it off. She meets Mami. She keeps playing the newbie. She meets Homura. She tells her a little more, but keeps the important parts to herself. She decides to go with Mami when she can't have her cake and eat it to...but largely because Mami is more at risk, and because it lets her stop her from further dragging Madoka and Sayaka into things. Actual concern for Mami and wanting to be with her definitely enter into it, to the point of being the main reason...But they weren't the only reason.
She likes people- especially the canon cast- but she doesn't trust them very much, not least of which with their own welfare. She's manipulative- extremely so at times. This was fairly blatant during the 'going Gilgamesh' incident. Concern for keeping them safe outweighed them making their own choices.
It's especially notable where the canon cast is involved because she constantly, unrepentantly uses her knowledge of their pasts and character to play them. It can be something as small as making a calculated decision to call Mami senpai, or nudging at the issues with Sayaka's crush, or as large as promising Mami she won't be alone...but the fact is she's using knowledge she has no right to know to try and get them to do what she wants and just what she wants.
She outright played Mami from the very beginning, and still hasn't admitted it to her.
She eventually tells Mami the truth about Kyubey and soul gems. This is still partially calculated, even if it's something she thinks she deserves to know about and meant to be for her own good. (Which is something that keeps coming up. Sabrina does things that she thinks are best for everyone, with letting them know about what she's actually thinking or doing being a secondary concern.)
Only now she hurt her, badly, and has to try and deal with the aftermath of that and piece Mami's psyche back together/do damage control. She tells herself it was for the best, and that Kyubey would have been worse...But Mami's still broken.
Personality? Well, yes, she's chipper in general, to the point where Homura's shocked but again, she's keeping a poker face on. She is genuinely happy at times, but as often as not lately, she's been cheerful because that's what she thinks the others need, mostly Mami. There's an ironic parallel to be made there with putting on a brave face and feeling like she can't be honest. Yes, we literally made Sabrina into diet Mami at points, at least where interactions are concerned. The same goes for how we talk to Homura, to an extent, and her 'We will succeed/things will go well' mantra.
Sabrina can be outright vicious at times, and it isn't treated by the narrative as a good thing. It's outright unpleasant for some of the characters watching. However justified it was, she definitely enjoyed the beatdown and rant at the end of the Sendai incident a bit too much. She enjoyed watching Akiko's breakdown. This is pretty much what was shown word for word there. She had the decency to realize it was wrong, though.
She threatened to witch out Kirika to get what she wanted, to the point where Homura was appalled. Yes, she had the best intentions (seeing a pattern?) but that is something downright horrifying to do given what it involves. Pretty sure no one but Homu would look at her the same way if they knew about that little scene.
Of course, SV and quest chatter being what it is...Sabrina has enough self-awareness to recognize her flaws. By which I mean she has well-concealed insecurity, uncertainty, and borderline self-loathing at times to the point where she's comparable to Sayaka on a moderately bad day. She relies on her metaknowledge- albeit not as badly as Homura does- and can be badly wrong-footed when it turns out to be unreliable (Oriko and Kirika's wish, her obsession with Elsa Maria). She desperately, desperately wants the canon cast to like her because she thinks they're good people and largely admires them. She takes setbacks and failures very badly...and I'll note that on the whole, we haven't drastically failed yet. Sabrina, in a lot of ways, is fatally flawed.
What happens when she fails to the point where a canon character (let alone, say, Mami) completely rejects her? Or she actively makes things worse through her actions? Her powers mean she probably won't witch but....
Given her personality so far, I'd go so far as to say that we'd be dead meat with practically any other wish. This is a setting where compromises are necessary and Pyrrhic victories are often the best someone can hope for...and Sabrina is someone who is borderline obsessive about succeeding at everything, is easily lured out by a chance to help- and she does want herself to be the one to help, always, which says things about her ego- and can't take failure well...and insists on actively intervening.
In a lot of ways, Homura's view of us is wrong. We're not Madoka 2.0. We're a less-judgmental Sayaka with a power boost.
I'll note that all of this is a good thing from a story POV. We don't want Sabrina to be a Sue.
And we're still in the 'early' stages if we look at PMAS as following the same basic arc as the series. (Introduction, hope spot, everything goes to hell in a handbasket, rinse and repeat)
tl;dr: Sabrina isn't a Sue so much as a deeply flawed OC largely being kept alive and successful by a bullshit powerset. ie: in keeping with PMMM...and the other shoe hasn't dropped yet. For her being a hollow wreck of her former self...give it time.
Try and talk to her, learn what happened re: the setup for Sendai, and try and find an empath in the longer term. For now all we can do is help her friends and keep her alive.I'd almost forgotten about Akiko... Or at least I've been trying to forget her.
What are we going to do about her, assuming that she doesn't get better? If we can even do anything. We'll be heading to Sendai soon.
- Location
- South Africa
[x] Of course.
[x] Watch the pro at work. If she seems amenable to questions...
-[x] How does she do this, anyway? Does she pick up ammo only or does she just take all the guns?
[x] Aid Homura. Use grief for utility/cleansing when applicable.
[X] Ask Homura if we can pick up something for ourselves, to cover our lack of offensive options at more than 100m.
-[X] Maybe she can teach us?
[x] Also on your shopping list:
-[x] Loose cash. At least enough to fund your lunch habits with Kyouko and Yuma for a month. Maybe two. (Also wrap in grief and put away for now.)
[x] Warn Homura that I'm going to do something witchy
-[x] Grief up acid and melt any drugs, computers, weapons and useful or expensive equipment we're not taking with us.
[x] Watch the pro at work. If she seems amenable to questions...
-[x] How does she do this, anyway? Does she pick up ammo only or does she just take all the guns?
[x] Aid Homura. Use grief for utility/cleansing when applicable.
[X] Ask Homura if we can pick up something for ourselves, to cover our lack of offensive options at more than 100m.
-[X] Maybe she can teach us?
[x] Also on your shopping list:
-[x] Loose cash. At least enough to fund your lunch habits with Kyouko and Yuma for a month. Maybe two. (Also wrap in grief and put away for now.)
[x] Warn Homura that I'm going to do something witchy
-[x] Grief up acid and melt any drugs, computers, weapons and useful or expensive equipment we're not taking with us.
- Location
- South Africa
Leaves less residue.
Griefblades are probably fine, though I'm worried about the drugs being recoverable after being cut up.
If we're gonna use grief-derived acids for disposal, then better make sure using it doesn't leave any fumes when used to melt drugs, plastics, circuitry, gun powder, metal and other highly-toxic-when-melted substances.
I mean sure, these guys are yakuza, but when we joined the shopping trip, I wasn't expecting we were gonna need body bags too.
I mean sure, these guys are yakuza, but when we joined the shopping trip, I wasn't expecting we were gonna need body bags too.
Dirtnap
Kanmusu Affecionado
Oooor we could just use grief blades and not have to worry about it.
Mister Bad Guy
Mr Mercury to friends
- Location
- Bay Area
Another thing to add to this: One of the signature traits of the Mary Sue, in my opinion, is that the writer does not allow them to experience the consequences of their actions. They don't lose, and when they do, it's brushed off quickly as inconsequential. They can act however they please and nobody really cares. This is because Mary Sue stories aren't so much a story about a developing plot or a growing character - rather, they're about showcasing a character, and having them go through adversity would detract from that.
Sabrina is pretty much never spared the consequences of her actions. She has maybe three or four actual friends (one is mentally broken, one likes everybody anyway, one is insane, and one is a little girl). Her recklessness, condescension, and overeagerness have poisoned the well of interaction with a good chunk of the cast. She regularly resolves situations with a mixture of blind luck and brute force, a strategy that has left her in the bargaining position of being able to magically solve the single largest problem in the setting, and yet unable to form permanent partnerships with just about anyone.
It's kinda like those comics where Superman realizes that super strength and flight are pretty good at destroying tanks or rescuing civilians, but not too hot at ending actual conflicts.
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I'd say that's slightly overstating the severity of the problem- especially since we are making progress with the local OCs and Kyouko and aren't negative with large portions of the Sendai cast and the 'overeager puppy' approach isn't as poisoning as some of the alternatives. Sincerity does have advantages.
Again, we haven't really failed in terms of getting our solution accepted. The Sendai fiasco was resolved to more or less our satisfaction even if we do need to get to the bottom of things there eventually and help Akiko.
Also, us not interacting with Sayaka and Madoka properly is less because of our bulldozer approach and more that we've been...too busy. Which is not a good thing but not a character flaw as such. We're starting to get through to Kyouko somewhat.
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Mister Bad Guy
Mr Mercury to friends
- Location
- Bay Area
Fair's fair. I just like to revel in flaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaws.
Well, you're helping with the self loathing part right there...
But yeah, Sabrina is very much a flawed PC.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
[X] Muramasa
It's ironically kind of right that the vote ends up without the sword in it. I put it in the vote because I was two people voting for it. Not sure where it came from.
What I'm reading here is that you wanted to take Homura's question, which she made for her own purpose, and twist it and use it for your own. Homura opened up herself looking for something in particular, that is a reason to be happy, so trying to use that moment as a way to make Homura trust/cooperate/socialize better would've been beyond fumbling it.
Homura asked for something. We gave her the closest we could. A sensible answer to a difficult question, one that might still bear more fruits than we've seen. We just need to wait and see.
I see progress. I expect Homura will be acting less recalcitrant, more willing to go the extra mile. Would be awesome if she tried asking this same question to other people, like Madoka and Mami, so she could have more POVs to reach her own answer, thought I doubt she will.
It's ironically kind of right that the vote ends up without the sword in it. I put it in the vote because I was two people voting for it.
Not sure where it came from.Can you destroy drugs with blades? That stuff needs to burn. We can just take it and burn it later.
Not at all. People don't work like that.
What I'm reading here is that you wanted to take Homura's question, which she made for her own purpose, and twist it and use it for your own. Homura opened up herself looking for something in particular, that is a reason to be happy, so trying to use that moment as a way to make Homura trust/cooperate/socialize better would've been beyond fumbling it.
Homura asked for something. We gave her the closest we could. A sensible answer to a difficult question, one that might still bear more fruits than we've seen. We just need to wait and see.
I see progress. I expect Homura will be acting less recalcitrant, more willing to go the extra mile. Would be awesome if she tried asking this same question to other people, like Madoka and Mami, so she could have more POVs to reach her own answer, thought I doubt she will.
You mean that as in anime people, right? I've never see anybody make a speech outside a formal setting and be taken half seriously.You say that like speeches don't make a point. That's kind of why people tend to give them.
At least she's not a Mac.
- Location
- South Africa
As Onmur says, blades won't be good enough for the drugs. I actually considered fire first, but I don't want to inhale the smoke. We need a way of destroying it completely without residue or affecting anyone. That means a chemical reaction. Which was why I thought "acid".