Which is exactly the same thing she'd feel if the box was made of iron, wood or cardboard. So, I don't see how she'd know we were treating the feather particularly cautiously.



The purpose of the "science" is to put the actual science on the sidelines and get on with the more important business of tending to Mami. I'm doing this so that we don't have our comforting Mami session interrupted.
The thing is that the science doesn't need to happen at all and the way the vote goes about it practically guarantees it'll be a problem when Mami or Kyubey notices our elaborate precautions on top of the issue of doing it before talking to Mami. Once we have the feather wrapped in grief, it's a problem for much, much later.
 
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Which is exactly the same thing she'd feel if the box was made of iron, wood or cardboard. So, I don't see how she'd know we were treating the feather particularly cautiously.
The bigger issue is that Mami just spent 30 minutes while we were doing something that felt extremely witchy, so she might react poorly to anything that feels more witchy than raw grief. I would want to store the grief away as well (for now), but we don't really have anywhere to put it.

Obviously we screwed up by not realizing that we should have warned Mami first. But my point is that creating the cityscape is not dangerous in and of itself. Because some people seem to be getting scared of barriers at all, but the barrier was not the problem.
I'm unconvinced of this. If we are rendered completely catatonic every time we make a barrier, that's a pretty huge problem. You've compared it to sleeping, but Firn has given us a lot of indications that we're a light sleeper, whereas this makes us incapable of reacting to Mami calling out for us desperately while right next to us. Which tells me that nothing is stopping something from walking over and ganking us. Or for all our friends to be taken out while we don't even notice.
I agree that we want to be careful about what might happen while we're in a fugue state, so we will probably need to have a spotter for any large-scale workings within a Barrier. But those potential dangers would come from external factors, not from the Barrier itself. I bring this up because we did the whole "Let there be light" thing and the next thing we knew was that Mami was severely distraught, so it feels like the Barrier caused Mami to be hurt. But it wasn't actually the Barrier that hurt Mami, it was our inability to properly warn her that caused the problem. I'm worried that people will associate the Barrier with Mami being hurt and will be disinclined to do stuff with them in the future, so I'm trying to head that off.

To be honest, I did consider it, then remembered that there was an argument over what we should technically call it. Which I didn't want to go through again.
For what it's worth, I've been calling it the "absolute interdiction" field, and that seems to be what 'Lement is calling it as well. But the actual name doesn't matter as long as there isn't any confusion about what we're talking about.
 
If we don't make it look like a Great Gate from Oblivion then we're committing gaming Heresy.
Going by jokes earlier in the thread, we're more likely to go for Gate of Babylon. :D

Keep 'em comin', Onmur!
Even in the face of TRAUMA!! we must remember the healing power of the LOLs.
Standing in that black void in front of the two girls there's a mundane looking piece of a brick wall.

On the wall, a decently well made graffiti drawing of a girl looking entirely too much like Homura wearing a completely scandalous dress winks back at them, lips puckered and hand raised as if blowing a kiss. Not just that, but spiralling away from her palm is a tiny love-heart with equally tiny devil wings and a long, sinuous tail which points to the side of the drawing, where it reads: "Don't forget, Mommy loves you! =3= ~ <3". To top that off, at the foot of the wall sits a bento wrapped in pink cloth and tied with a bright red ribbon.

It takes a few seconds for Sabrina to react, first going pale, then flushing a deep, deep red all the way to the tips of her ears. With a pleading look, she defends herself from Homura's accusing eyes, "I swear I don't know what's... I didn't think... I didn't..." She bows her head. "I'm sorry. This isn't my idea of a joke." A wave of her hand and the wall disintegrates into a cloud of grief that returns to orbit around its master.

Homura holds her gaze for a couple of seconds, (determinedly not noticing a small pink box drop from the cloud to be hastily hidden behind the guilty-looking foreigner's back) before looking away with a long suffering sigh. "It's fine," she says.

'Don't ask, Homura. Just don't ask...'.
"I... regret... nothing..." Says Sabrina with difficulty, laying down on Mami's bed.

"S-Sabrina!" Yells Mami, "I... I can't believe you did that!"

"Um... I didn't know...this would-" Sabrina stops as she gets a coughing fit. After a few seconds during which Mami nervously squeezes her hands together, she finishes, "...happen."

Homura steps forward, flatly staring down at Sabrina. "You looked at the bento and said: The one who made this is probably our greatest enemy." She quotes. "Then you proceeded to scarf it down like you were S... starving."

Sabrina guiltily looks away for a moment, but then she firmly stares at Homura, expression completely unrepentant. "It was delicious."

Homura blinks slowly. "It didn't look delicious."

"It tasted-" Sabrina coughs, "like love."

"I-it was p-poisoned!" Yells Mami.

"It wasn't!" Shouts Sabrina back. Mami flinches. Immediately, Sabrina stills, and looks regretful. "Sorry Mami. I mean..." She brings a fist to her mouth as she coughs lightly, "Mom only knows how to cook simple dishes. Noodles, rice. Explosives."

Having stepped back from the conversation, Homura's very slow blink goes unnoticed.

"W-what?" Asks Mami. "Sabrina... t-this... food left you b-bedridden." Her lip trembles. "Magic healing doesn't... d-doesn't work. I can't..."

"I could try grief heal-"

"No." Instant denial from both Mami and Homura.

Sabrina immediately cowers before the united front. "OK. No grief healing. Got it." She throws both girls an appeasing look, then looks back at Mami. "But Mami. It's fine... I..." Sabrina stops to cover her mouth. She clearly represses a cough before continuing. "I'm getting better. I feel better already, look."

"Wait-!" Mami steps forward to stop Sabrina, Homura a step behind, but neither reach her on time.

Sabrina tries to sit up, stops halfway there, trembles and falls back down on the bed. Mami freezes, arm extended but not daring to disturb Sabrina.

After a moment, Sabrina's eyes wander all around the room, until they focus somewhere between the two girs. "Hey... Why are you... standing on the ceiling?... I can understand the chair... But you should get down before you fall..." Once more, Sabrina gets a coughing fit, stopping any further delirious words from escaping her mouth.

Mami hurries to try to help Sabrina, but mostly ends up nervously rubbing her back.

A sigh and light footsteps indicates Homura approaching the bed. Quickly transforming, she reaches behind her shield and takes out a glass of water and some pills. "Ibuprofen." She says, leaving them on the table besides the bed, before moving out and into the living room.

"Y-yeah... Maybe that'll help..." Says Mami, unconvinced. "Whe-where are you g... going?"

Homura stops and looks back. "I need to see a harlot about a feather." She walks out of sight.

A few seconds later, the sound of a door slamming shut resounds through the apartment.
 
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Ok this is a huge hodgepodge of some of my thoughts about what's going on right now with feathers and barriers and stuff:

TL;DR version:
-The feather not being "witchy" is actually potentially pretty signifigant in what it tells us
--especially about who it is and/or the nature of grief
-Barrier "tech" should be tabled for the foreseeable future (Note, this is not the same as abandoned entirely)
--More important things going on for the foreseeable future, in terms of all of science and social and plot
--Too many risks/downsides that we can't afford to take the time to deal with right now; Feathers, Kyubey, "setup trance", and "barrier entrance beacon"

EDIT: I can't believe I forgot Oriko as a potential "science spotter"
Adding an item for her now.

Ok, so our two leading theories for "Feathers" is Dedolere and Homucifer, right?

There was this little bit of info Firn gave us:

@Firnagzen: does the feather look like one of Homucifer's feathers - and does it feel witchy?

Yes, kind of, and no.


Well, if the feather did not feel "witchy", that means it couldn't of come from Dedolere's "body", given witch bodies as we currently understand them. If it did, it would feel "witchy".
Similarly, it could not of been something "left over" from the "witch barrier stuff" in our barrier, as that would feel "witchy" as well.

Note, this does not rule out "grief stuff" entirely. It could be that:
-The feather is solid, "raw" grief in a very intricate shape
-This is a new, yet to be discovered "state" of grief

This means it could still be Dedolere:
-Maybe Dedolere's "body" is NOT as we currently understand witch bodies
-Maybe this was one of Dedolere's "raw grief manipulations"
-Maybe Dedolere uses a new form of grief
-Maybe Dedolere has crazy powers beyond just BS levels of grief power/control


However, all of the above make seem to make the Dedolere theory for "Feathers" substantially less likely; leaving the Homucifer theory a bit more viable in comparison.

I still feel like it can't be that simple though...
Probably should keep a spare Madoka "on call" just in case though. :V

And even if it turns out to be Dedolere after all, well, that tells hints at some interesting, potentially important things about grief we didn't know about before.


Hell, this could be an epic troll on Firn's part; maybe a crow just wandered into our barrier. :D



And on the subject of barriers, we should table barrier tech for the foreseeable future.
Not only just for the next few updates due to Mami, Ono, Homu, and other things, but probably for several RL months worth of updates, until the next "lull" in the plot most likely.

My reasons for arguing this are:
-In the very short term: Well, Mami
-"Barrier tech" was a mid priority "project" anyways; we just spent a bunch of time on it, now back to high priority stuff. We only got to it in the first place because BOTH:
--We needed to step away from some of our higher priority projects for a moment because we were getting frustrated with them; barrier tech just happened to be the project "lower down" we pulled from to be that temporary "stepping away"
--We are in a "lull" between "plot arcs" right now, giving us a bit more time than usual.
---Based on chapter titles ("The Interloper" and "Our Benefactor") and several "plot things" already introduced (Ono, the feather, etc.), we are about to "kick it into high gear" again with plot; our "science time" will be very limited once again very soon here (which covers why not in the "foreseeable future")
---Plus, the already present plans we got, Mami, Ono, Madoka and Sayaka chat, Homura chat and MAYBE "shopping", Kyoko "bridge mending" with Mami, etc.

-There are enough risks with barrier tech to not pursue it further without at least a "spotter"
--The "barrier setup time trance"
---This is rather worrying, but thankfully temporary even without outside intervention (unless it is one of those things that can get worse over repeated exposure)
---Note we had a sort of similar type of "trance" when we first entered a witch barrier (that wasn't
----That one was an "extreme revulsion trance", and the one we just had was an "extreme comfort trance", sort of (granted, from somewhat different causes)
----This may imply that this new kind of "trance" is something we can learn to reign in as well
-----However, unlike the "Oh GODS! GREIF" trance from the first chapter and our learning to cope with it, we don't have time to practice getting over this at the moment (see above about "plot likely kicking into high gear really soon here")
-----It may very well be NOT be a kind of thing we can "learn" to "reign in" (which, if true, would be a good reason to abandon this "tech tree" entirely, not just for the foreseeable future)
----Something to note is that we freaked out Mami in our first witch barrier "SO MUCH GRIEF trance" too. PMAS, breaking Mami since chapter 1 :(
--Attracts the attention of nosey Incubators
---Having Kyubey's direct attention when not asked for it is usually not a good thing...
--Feathers
---This is a pretty big one; if there is a connection, we need to tread VERY carefully
----Definitely should hold off on "barrier stuff" until we at the very least have a chance to look over the feather.
----If there does turn out to be substantial risk of our barriers "helping" feathers, then that would be another way I would be for abandoning the "barrier tech tree" entirely
--Lack of a good spotter at the moment
---Mami: I hate to say it, but Mami is NOT suitable as a grief science "spotter" for the foreseeable future
----There is too much connection between grief and "sensitive" topics we can't afford to lightly toss around clues for (witchbomb most notably)
----She is not in a good emotional state to be calm and rational with how to react if something goes wrong
---Homura: Homura is probably one of our best bet for the future, but right now, our relationship with her isn't at a good state to ask her to do this
---Oriko: Oriko is another very good candidate for "science spotting" due to "lol, precog OP!". In fact, we have already done so, but some issues with this too
----Our doing this with Oriko always and not even asking Homura has hurt Homura, and has damaged how much she thinks we trust here
----Oriko is still ostensibly under house arrest; can't take her to "joy-rides to warehouse-kun" on a whom
----Still a few lingering questions about just what Oriko's "deal" is
---Kyubey: HA HA HA HA HA HA HA HA! NO!
--Most of these are likely surmountable, but see above about "plot likely kicking into high gear really soon here"; we won't have the time to surmount these for quite some time here, especially given that we have outstanding high priority projects and this is only a mid priority one

-I had some ambitions of using barriers as a portable hammer space, but I am now for tabling even that for now
--Granted, we technically already have the tools we need to pull this off; no further "science" needed
---Shrinking entrance, so we can stick it in a bag or something
---Moving entrace while outside the barrier
--BUT, new risk factors have been introduced since then
---Kyubey attention (already explained above)
---Feathers (already explained above)
---It still "feels" like a barrier entrance to meguca (well, because, it is :p)
----Having a "there is something here, often a sign of a witch" long-ish range "beacon" is likely a...liability
-----Probably should only use it like this while no other meguca are around or while in time stop to work around this "beacon problem"
-----Given our complete and utter failures with "grief feel" suppression, this issue is likely inherent and insurmountable by us


Now, let me make it clear, I still feel like the "barrier tech tree" has potential to be useful for us. However, there are enough issues with it, as well as enough higher prioirty things (especially new ones or likely soon to be introduced ones) to make pursuing it not at all a wise move for the foreseeable future.


So, yea, sort of my thoughts.
 
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"Barrier tech" was a mid priority "project" anyways; we just spent a bunch of time on it, now back to high priority stuff.
Before dismissing barriers as mid priority instead of high priority, there are two things that we need to check:
1. Do we have range greater than 100 meters inside the barrier?
2. Do we have the ability to open multiple entrances to the barrier?
If the answer to both of these questions is "yes", then the barrier can facilitate mass cleansing by opening entrances in every major city and providing quick transportation to Mitakihara.

If there does turn out to be substantial risk of our barriers "helping" feathers, then that would be another way I would be for abandoning the "barrier tech tree" entirely
We don't want to help our enemy, but we do want to find more about it. Especially since we don't yet know if "Feathers" is our enemy or if "Feathers" is opposed to our enemy (both would explain the presence of "Feathers" in Oriko's visions). If the Barrier is indeed related to "Feathers", then it could provide an opportunity to gather more information.

I do agree with the rest of your points about the barrier, though.

Having a "there is something here, often a sign of a witch" long-ish range "beacon" is likely a...liability
It depends. If we set up a large network of barrier entrances to provide cleansing, then making them "loud" could actually be quite helpful. We would want to mask the witch signature on the inside as much as possible to make it comfortable, but having entrances which act as beacons could be useful.
 
Before dismissing barriers as mid priority instead of high priority, there are two things that we need to check:
1. Do we have range greater than 100 meters inside the barrier?
2. Do we have the ability to open multiple entrances to the barrier?
If the answer to both of these questions is "yes", then the barrier can facilitate mass cleansing by opening entrances in every major city and providing quick transportation to Mitakihara.
Its a barrier, not a fucking Webway gate.

If we wanna break the 100m limit we need to find a girl with portal powers.
 
Before dismissing barriers as mid priority instead of high priority, there are two things that we need to check:
1. Do we have range greater than 100 meters inside the barrier?
2. Do we have the ability to open multiple entrances to the barrier?
If the answer to both of these questions is "yes", then the barrier can facilitate mass cleansing by opening entrances in every major city and providing quick transportation to Mitakihara.
I don't think it works like that.
Here's how it works.
1. Create the Grand Mitakihara Meguca Hotel inside our barrier.
2. Provide cleansing and a free place to stay for anyone who comes.
3. Open an entrance in every major population area.
4. Provide a fast shuttle transportation between each of the entrances and Mitakihara.
5. Advertise the availability of free cleansing.

The only requirement to set this up is for Sabrina to have long range inside the barrier (which seems plausible given that she was able to create the entirety of Mitakihara, including a Sun) and the ability to open multiple entrances (which also seems plausible). Other abilities (like space warping or teleportation or grief masking) would improve the project, but range and multiple entrances are the only ones that are required.
 
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Here's how it works.
1. Create the Grand Mitakihara Meguca Hotel inside our barrier.
2. Provide cleansing and a free place to stay for anyone who comes.
3. Open an entrance in every major population area.
4. Provide a fast shuttle transportation between each of the entrances and Mitakihara.
5. Advertise the availability of free cleansing.

The only requirement to set this up is for Sabrina to have long range inside the barrier (which seems plausible given that she was able to create the entirety of Mitakihara) and the ability to open multiple entrances (which also seems plausible). Other abilities (like space warping or teleportation or grief masking) would make improve the project, but range and multiple entrances are the only ones that are required.
And who, pray tell, would agree to stay in one? More importantly, we don't need to be worrying about that right now. We aren't anywhere near the point where we have to research pocket dimensions to house our friends.
 
Here's how it works.
1. Create the Grand Mitakihara Meguca Hotel inside our barrier.
2. Provide cleansing and a free place to stay for anyone who comes.
3. Open an entrance in every major population area.
4. Provide a fast shuttle transportation between each of the entrances and Mitakihara.
5. Advertise the availability of free cleansing.

The only requirement to set this up is for Sabrina to have long range inside the barrier (which seems plausible given that she was able to create the entirety of Mitakihara, including a Sun) and the ability to open multiple entrances (which also seems plausible). Other abilities (like space warping or teleportation or grief masking) would make improve the project, but range and multiple entrances are the only ones that are required.

You seem to be assuming a 1:1 correspondence to distance traveled in the barrier with distance traveled in the real world. I...do not think this is the case.
 
And who, pray tell, would agree to stay in one? More importantly, we don't need to be worrying about that right now. We aren't anywhere near the point where we have to research pocket dimensions to house our friends.
Anyone who needs a place to stay. Most girls probably just need cleansing, not a place to stay, but once the network gets large enough, you can bet that we will find runaways and orphans and refugees who would not have a better place to stay. And, given the control we have in the Barrier, we could make it quite comfortable (apart from the witchy feel).

You seem to be assuming a 1:1 correspondence to distance travelled in the barrier with distance travelled in the real world. I...do not think this is the case.
Well, we only have one example so far, but that was a 1:1 correspondence. But you're right that this is another requirement that we need to research more fully.
 
If we wanna do something like what Boone wants, the safest way is to just find some girl with high potential, talk her into contracting with a Wish that gives her portal powers and use that instead. Shitload safer than fucking around with barriers.

Maybe get a whole bunch of them. Give 'em salaries. Make a meguca company, achieve a global meguca monopoly.
 
Changed wording of the vote a bit, thanks, SWB. The previous version, while honest, probably wasn't the best for Mami and Sabs has enough (somewhat warranted) self-loathing without adding to it directly.

[x] Discreetly encase the feather in solid grief and move it among the other masses of grief, without bothering Mami.
[x] Hug her and apologize for worrying her, again.
-[x]I...I'm sorry. I keep hurting you, and it doesn't matter that I didn't mean to.
-[x]Mami, I'd never leave you unless you wanted me to. You don't need to be scared of being alone.
[x]Keep reassuring and supporting her.
[x]Ask her what she wants to do. If she doesn't mention anything, ask if she wants to go home.
[x]If she does want to go home then...
-[x]Put the kettle on with a few grief marbles without leaving Mami's side
-[x]Ask Mami if she wants to talk. Listen if she does.
-[x]Otherwise, ask if she wants to do something like watch a movie, anything else, or just sit there.
 
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[x] Discreetly encase the feather in solid grief and move it among the other masses of grief, without bothering Mami.
[x] Hug her and apologize for worrying her, again.
-[x]I...I'm sorry. I keep hurting you, and it doesn't matter that I didn't mean to.
-[x]Mami, I'd never leave you unless you wanted me to. You don't need to be scared of being alone.
[x]Keep reassuring and supporting her.
[x]Ask her what she wants to do. If she doesn't mention anything, ask if she wants to go home.
[x]If she does want to go home then...
-[x]Put the kettle on with a few grief marbles without leaving Mami's side
-[x]Ask Mami if she wants to talk. Listen if she does.
-[x]Otherwise, ask if she wants to do something like watch a movie, anything else, or just sit there.
 
Anyone who needs a place to stay. Most girls probably just need cleansing, not a place to stay, but once the network gets large enough, you can bet that we will find runaways and orphans and refugees who would not have a better place to stay. And, given the control we have in the Barrier, we could make it quite comfortable (apart from the witchy feel).
A: You are underestimating the witchy feel thing. Mami and Homu nearly attacked us on instinct when we went and used witch-grief around them.
B: It is not something that's important in the near future. We will not be getting the network anywhere near that big... most likely for the duration of the actual quest.

Edit: to keep up,
[X] Ugolino.
 
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