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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Muramasa said:
Hildegarde was fully emptied before being mostly refilled. Not sufficient proof we break a seed by skimming it.

It is proof it takes quite a bit to reactivate a witch though.
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We didn't just mostly refill Hildegard. We fully emptied Hildegard, then fully refilled her, then skimmed the wings off the top, then Aurora stole some from her. Then we checked her.

I think I get the point you're trying to make, though.

Initially, the discussion was whether reactivation happens when we fill a seed to normal levels. Either it doesn't, or it does but it's possible to deactivate again by skimming. But to additionally suggest that to deactivate a seed that was never broken in the first place requires more than just skimming, that's adding levels of complexity to a simple active/inactive dichotomy that I'm not comfortable with, but neither can I refute.



First, we completely put away the grief before lunch, completely re-filling the seed:

Firnagzen said:
You take a moment to catch your breath, hands on your knees - that was exciting, if nothing else! Finally, you straighten, and look at the dense dome of Grief spheres and the wings visible out of the corner of your eyes. You can't exactly walk around with those floating around, can you.

The only place for you to put the Grief to is back in Hildegard's Seed -you suppose you could make a giant Grief monolith and leave it here, but that's probably a bad idea- so you dig the Seed out of your pocket and hold it up, moving a few spheres out of the way so that the light catches the Seed.

Yep. Still a mostly clear, spherical shape with a pinprick dot of darkness in the centre. You shrug, and begin pouring the Grief back in - it goes in much more readily than it came out, the Seed vacuuming it in almost as fast as you can disincorporate your spheres.

Finally, the Grief is gone, and the Grief Seed back to looking like, well, a Grief Seed. You pocket it, and dismiss your puella magi costume in a blaze of light, fastidiously smoothing down your skirt before wandering out to the main road.
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Next, we choose not to form wings and instead drew on our sling bag full to hoverboard to Masami's:

Firnagzen said:
You're definitely going to have to fly out, since wandering the school corridors with your very distinctively not-a-school-uniform clothes is just going to raise more questions. Still, wings or perhaps something new, considering that you did an excellent impression of a drunken moth with said wings?

After a brief debate with yourself that involved a diversion into thoughts about fixed wing flight at some point, you decide to try something new, and hopefully more stable. Under your control, the Grief marbles file out of your sling bag, pushing aside the flap. You mould them into a flat, skateboard sized platform, hovering a few centimeters above the floor.
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Then we formed wings as we left Masami's:

Firnagzen said:
Feh. Domestic disputes.

You walk into the alley beside the building and bound to the roof, wincing at the cracks you're still leaving in the walls. Once you reach the roof, you reach for a Grief Seed, and yank a tremendous quantity of Grief out, enough that your wings billow out to the twenty meter wing span. The Grief Seed is still fairly cloudy when you pocket it again.
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Afternoon experimentation did not touch the grief in the seed. Aurora stole some grief from Hilde in this time and we then observed Hildegard on the hospital roof:

Firnagzen said:
You reach into your pocket, pulling out Hildegard's Grief Seed to replace the Grief. Looking at it, though... it seems less cloudy than it did a few hours ago. You stare at it, trying to figure out how that happened. Mayb-

Homura's standing in front of you, in the white and purple of her puella magi uniform. Behind her is Mami, similarly resplendent in her own costume, worried frown on her face. The three of you are bound by Mami's ribbons, and the world is hued in the monochromes of timestop.

Homura is busily rifling through your pockets, which you instinctively flinch away from and shove her away. "Hey!"

"Sabrina," Mami begins speaking quickly. "You have a severely overfilled Grief Seed - we could feel it from over there." The blonde points off in the distance.

You blink at her, and plunge your free hand into your pocket, finding the other Grief Seed you have and pulling it out. When you look at it, it is visibly pulsating and surrounded by a sheen of Grief, and now that it's been pointed out - you do notice it, pulsing faintly on your senses.
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Firnagzen said:
"Why does this Grief Seed look like that?" Homura asks, pointing at Hildegard's Grief Seed, in its smoky, rather than obsidian black, glory. The black haired girl is frowning at the odd looking Grief Seed - you suppose she would have seen plenty of about-to-hatch Grief Seeds, but this, on the other hand, would be the first half-empty one she's come across.

"I extracted some Grief from it to make my wings," you reply. "Speaking of which, um, let me try something?"

Without waiting for an answer, you hurriedly put Hildegard's Seed aside for a moment, and yank at the Grief in Aurora's. The Grief comes free almost sulkily, heavy, ropy streamers oozing from the Grief Seed. It almost feels like the Witch is trying to hang on to the Grief, but you counter that easily.

You observe Aurora's Grief Seed closely as the Grief flows away - you can feel an impression of the Witch again, the blues and blacks and marble of the Barrier trying to reform - the Witch was definitely trying to hatch again. There's a sensation of... hunger, predation maybe?

Hildegard, by contrast, is simply... quiet, the Grief sitting immobile within the Grief Seed. You wonder, and hope that perhaps it's turning back into a Soul Gem. Maybe, maybe not - nothing seems to be happening right now.

You convert the Grief from Aurora's Grief Seed into marbles, forming a several hundred which you pack neatly away in your sling bag.

Mami visibly relaxes as the Grief Seed returns to a more conventional state, subtle tension of her muscles releasing. "That's amazing, Sabrina," she murmurs.

Homura nods in silent agreement. "Could I have a look at the other Grief Seed?" she asks.
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Gadjo said:
But why would a grief seed be worse at holding grief than a soul gem? We know those are exposed to grief for long periods of time for as long as they exist. Really, it's a waste of a science vote. The grief seeds are specially made to contain grief. They can handle it.
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Um. Soul Gems are specifically bad at handling grief. The more grief there is in a gem, the more its owner starts to act irrationally and eventually the stress causes the soul gem to shatter and the witch to emerge. I'm hopeful that grief seeds are a bit better at handling the stress of having a bunch of grief stuffed into them over and over again, but I'm not so confident that I would be willing to leave that hypothesis untested.

Point is I'm not comfortable using grief seeds as a permanent power source. I'd like to find a way to make them unnecessary in some shape or form.
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Agreed. Creating mass produced artificial repositories for grief would be much preferable to using seeds. The only problem is that we haven't done this yet (and we don't know if it's possible), so currently, the only known repository for grief is a seed.
 
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boonerunner said:
Um. Soul Gems are specifically bad at handling grief. The more grief there is in a gem, the more its owner starts to act irrationally and eventually the stress causes the soul gem to shatter and the witch to emerge. I'm hopeful that grief seeds are a bit better at handling the stress of having a bunch of grief stuffed into them over and over again, but I'm not so confident that I would be willing to leave that hypothesis untested.
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Yes, but the actual structure of the gem is completely unharmed unless it fills completely. It can take being filled to high capacity and emptied over and over again throughout a meguca's lifespan. From what we've seen, grief only actually harms a soul gem if it gets filled. It affects the girls' mind, but not the gem itself until witching actually happens. What I'm saying is that they can handle constant stress from below the breaking point without becoming worn out. We have no reason to believe a grief seed isn't the same way or better.
 
I'm tired of having this argument every week. Let's ask to borrow some seeds. She has four, she'll get them back in 3 hours, she'll be fine with it. She knows we've been researching grief seeds, it won't be awkward. We'll get everything important or critical out of the way first, then if there's spare time we'll take a look into how seeds work. It's better than getting 2 hours in and running out of important questions then having to waste the last hour on things that don't really matter. If we don't have the time and end up not using them, no harm done.

[x]Morning routine.
[x]Wake up calls for all of your friends. Including Sayaka.
-[x]Mention to Sayaka that we might try and finish off Kyosuke's healing during the day. Does she want us to hold off until everyone can go as a group again?
[x]Call Ono. Ask how she's doing, if she's used the seed, and where she wants to meet up today. Bring up telepathy.
-[x]Like this.
[x]Walk with Mami and friends to school.
-[x] Ask Mami if you can borrow two seeds to do some experiments on. You'll bring them back at lunch.
--[x] There is a chance that the experiments could damage a seed; we'll replace it if that happens.
[x]Go visit warehouse-kun.
-[x] How are the Sendai groups doing?
-[x]Pick up science where we left off.
 
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[x]Morning routine.
[x] Wake up calls for all of your friends. Including Sayaka.
-[x] Mention to Sayaka that we might try and finish off Kyosuke's healing during the day. Does she want us to wait for everyone to go as a group again?
[x] How are the Sendai groups doing?
[x] Call Ono. Ask how she's doing, if she's used the seed, and where she wants to meet up today. Bring up telepathy.
-[x] Like this.
[x] Walk with Mami and friends to school.
-[x] Ask Mami if you can borrow two seeds to do some experiments on. You'll bring them back at lunch.
[x] Go visit warehouse-kun. Pick up science where we left off.


Eh, why not? If Mami has four, it should be fine.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Sabrina: "I've done it. I've finally cracked the secret to reversing witchification."

*Sees Love in her Grief Senses. Realizes reverting Witches means turning them into Devils. Turns as white as her hair. Gemsplodes everything in the warehouse, which she sets on fire.*

Sabrina: "Nopenopenopenopenope."
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On the upside, then we can let our allies witch out for superpowers! Sure, Devil Homura would mindwipe us to keep us safe and I think that'd count as a Bad End, but surely Mami-
Firnagzen said:
If Mumi had her way, PMAS would be a happy slice of life
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Oh. Right. Maybe not such a good idea, then.
 
[x]Morning routine.
[x] Wake up calls for all of your friends. Including Sayaka.
-[x] Mention to Sayaka that we might try and finish off Kyosuke's healing during the day. Does she want us to wait for everyone to go as a group again?
[x] How are the Sendai groups doing?
[x] Call Ono. Ask how she's doing, if she's used the seed, and where she wants to meet up today. Bring up telepathy.
-[x] Like this.
[x] Walk with Mami and friends to school.
-[x] Ask Mami if you can borrow two seeds to do some experiments on. You'll bring them back at lunch.
[x] Go visit warehouse-kun. Pick up science where we left off.
 
DivinePotato990 said:
*pant* *pant* Nearly 2000 pages of brain damage, microwavable tea, GIANT GRIEF MECHS, homu-sads, mumi-sads, sabrina-sads, everyone-sads, botched social interactions, regrettable decisions, Kirika cuteness, and general craziness later, I finally catch up. I know there was the story only mode, but the comments section and occasional thread derailment was too hilarious to skip.
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Oh, I almost forgot. Welcome! Come on and join the !!FUN!!
 
Jackercracks said:
I'm tired of having this argument every week. Let's ask to borrow some seeds. She has four, she'll get them back in 3 hours, she'll be fine with it. She knows we've been researching grief seeds, it won't be awkward. We'll get everything important or critical out of the way first, then if there's spare time we'll take a look into how seeds work. It's better than getting 2 hours in and running out of important questions then having to waste the last hour on things that don't really matter. If we don't have the time and end up not using them, no harm done.

[x]Morning routine.
[x]Wake up calls for all of your friends. Including Sayaka.
-[x]Mention to Sayaka that we might try and finish off Kyosuke's healing during the day. Does she want us to hold off until everyone can go as a group again?
[x]Call Ono. Ask how she's doing, if she's used the seed, and where she wants to meet up today. Bring up telepathy.
-[x]Like this.
[x]Walk with Mami and friends to school.
-[x] Ask Mami if you can borrow two seeds to do some experiments on. You'll bring them back at lunch.
[x]Go visit warehouse-kun.
-[x]Pick up science where we left off.
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Your vote seems to be missing the "[] How are the Sendai groups doing?" option. Is that intentional?
 
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Oh, I thought up another thing to try out but bear with me because it's a bit... extreme. SWB's lovely comprehensive science round up gave me the idea.
Firnagzen said:
... the heart's anatomically accurate, you note as you dissolve the tricuspid valve, right down to the heartstrings. And...

You pause. Is that...

There's the barest echo of a Name. Hildegard. It comes from what you recognize would be the pacemaker cells of a normal heart, the cells which tell the heart to keep beating. You redouble your efforts, shredding the heart into drifting particles of fine ash, and leaving the pacemaker neurons to twitch spasmodically on the floor.

... you're not sure what you've done. Well. This is it, the barest core around which a Witch forms.

You look around cautiously, but all the fight seems to have gone out of everything. No Familiars, and the entire chamber is quiet save for the slow dripping of blood.

...

You could just crush it, you guess? Or maybe something else?
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At which point it was poked with grief senses (which caused despair), then its core was put into a box and magic fed in, which caused a negative reaction and then it got squelched.

Things that weren't tried: telepathying the Witch core and healing magic on the Witch core. Now Firn has stated he won't end the quest for experimenting on the Witch, so it's at least reasonably safe so long as we take precautions. This obviously wouldn't be a thing to do while alone, and thus isn't a thing to do this morning. Thoughts?
 
[x] Jackercracks

EDIT:^ Our previous similar experiments have ended badly.
 
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Gadjo said:
Eh. Pretty sure a witch is totally disconnected from the body it once had. They could easily be conscious, and I agree with ugo on this one: if we cannot save them, it would be preferable to kill them, rather than leave them to suffer.
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...I'm not sure that is a good idea.

It might be falling into the trap of "we know best and are the best ever".

Say what you will about Kazumi crew, but at least they used a freezer instead of killing every meguca they came across.

Which is same - until they find a better solution, like us. But they could not have known/expected a grief cleanser meguca.

@Jackercracks: I'm willing to do that on quiescent witch (does this reactivate?) or familiar outside barrier at this point.

Still, we do not spend enough time...


[x]Morning routine.
[x]Wake up calls for all of your friends. Including Sayaka.
[x]Call Ono. Ask how she's doing, if she's used the seed, and where she wants to meet up today. Bring up telepathy.
-[x]Like this.
[x]Walk with Mami and friends to school.
-[x] Ask Mami if you can borrow two seeds to do some experiments on. You'll bring them back at lunch.
[x]Go visit warehouse-kun.
-[x] How are the Sendai groups doing?
-[x]Pick up science where we left off.

Also sticking with not giving Sayaka preliminary hope if we're going to do more stuff. Maybe after lunch relooking healing Kyosuke alone?
 
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'Lement said:
...I'm not sure that is a good idea.

It might be falling into the trap of "we know best and are the best ever".

Say what you will about Kazumi crew, but at least they used a freezer instead of killing every meguca they came across.

Which is same - until they find a better solution, like us. But they could not have known/expected a grief cleanser meguca.
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A: You're using the Kazumi crew as a positive example.
B: I didn't mean we do it now- we have no reason to believe we need to give up yet. I'm saying in a hypothetical situation where we can't reverse witching, I'd rather destroy them than use them as a power source. But I digress; this has nothing to do with the current vote.
 
'Lement said:
@Jackercracks: I'm willing to do that on quiescent witch (does this reactivate?) or familiar outside barrier at this point.
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I had not considered trying it on a familiar. I have no idea what would happen there really. Or even what it would mean for the different things that might happen.
'Lement said:
Also sticking with not giving Sayaka preliminary hope if we're going to do more stuff. Maybe after lunch relooking healing Kyosuke alone?
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Are you okay with it possibly taking 3 hours to finish and Kyouske maybe falling for Sabrina?
 
Gadjo said:
A: You're using the Kazumi crew as a positive example.
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Nah, I'm saying we'd be worse than Kazumi crew. Kidnapping every meguca to put them into coma is not exactly a great decision, and the clear seeds are quiescent so I doubt they suffer any more :V

...But yes, this doth digress.
Jackercracks said:
Are you okay with it possibly taking 3 hours to finish and Kyouske maybe falling for Sabrina?
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I'm not sure as of this moment. Ask again later?
Gadjo said:
What are you considering trying on a familiar? Because if it's telepathy based I think we'll get the same result we got last time we screwed with a familiar.
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That might have been the witch disliking us. They do show some resistance to grief control, for example, so it would be worth checking as familiars controlled by us would be able to leave our range.
 
Gadjo said:
What are you considering trying on a familiar? Because if it's telepathy based I think we'll get the same result we got last time we screwed with a familiar.
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There's a theory that was bandied about at the time that the familiar reacted so strongly because it was still attached to the Witch, and that it would be far more manageable if the Witch was dead at the time of testing.
 
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