Welcome aboard...and why would you do that?
You know he's not the only one who did that, right?
Frankly, you don't get the full Sabrina Experience without the thread's arguments at the very least.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
You know he's not the only one who did that, right?
Frankly, you don't get the full Sabrina Experience without the thread's arguments at the very least.
- Location
- spinning
I can imagine very few intergalactic transport systems that couldn't also kill us in a single move.
Ignoring all their displayed abilities, and even mere telepathy used enough on only Sabrina as retaliation would be debilitating without killing. Assuming the telepathy can't be dialed up to harmful like sound can. (Tbh, I think it is just done by modifying brains directly.)
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I didn't quote every piece of evidence I read. Think you're referring to something I cited for a different part.
Here are my citations for re-filling seeds:
Later we removed a bit of grief from it for our wings, and then Aurora (active at the time) pulled some grief a near-full version it in our pocket to almost hatch.
Note that we did not un-fill Hildegard at any time, but it's noted that it is "quiet" despite this, as compared to the sense of hunger/predation from the active seed, the same sense we got from Irene active and at normal grief levels.
Furthermore,
Re-reading it, yes we don't check it until we re-broke it. But taken together with the previous, it seems either we break seeds the moment we skim any grief from them at all, or filling to the "normal" level does not re-activate them. We certainly have not attempted to purposely reactivate them by filling them past the normal level or by re-hatching them. I personally think hatching would definitely reactivate the Witch.
See above.
We have only done one or two cycles in the past, so we don't know if a larger number of cycles would cause damage (or any other change). In the real world, this kind of stress test is important. If there is a problem which could potentially manifest for users of old seeds when they put grief into it, then we want to know about it before we start handing them out indiscriminately.
True, but that just means that the situation is less dangerous, not that we shouldn't test it.
If this is a problem, then we would not necessarily know about it. The drain would be very slow (i.e. because the amount of grief in a partially filled grief seed is still pretty close to the amount of grief in a fresh grief seed). And Homura and Mami (presumably) always used their fullest grief seed to do cleansing and feed them to Kyuubey when the seeds are (mostly) full, so they might never have noticed. This experiment relates to clear seed safety because it's still possible (until we learn more) that the only difference between a "clear" seed and a "normal" seed is the amount of grief that each one contains.
Remember that the two times we have noticed grief transfer occurring in the past (Mostly filled Hildegarde + Aurora, Half filled Aurora + Irene), it was the so-called "normal" seed that was the actual danger. I would not be at all surprised if the normal seeds are more dangerous than we have been assuming to date.
Having rules to prevent potential problems is good. Knowing the exact scope of the problem is better. Having rules might be a good enough reason to rate these experiments as a lower priority compared to some of our other other experiments, but we still need to do them eventually. When explaining the risks to others, I would much rather be able to say "We have done extensive testing and these are the exact situations that can cause a problem to occur." rather than "We saw a problem happen under one condition so don't do that, and also don't do any of these other things that we haven't tested but suspect to be dangerous."
Agreed. This would be an excellent test.
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I absolutely would not oppose this if figured out how to do it. However, I think it is an extremely limiting thought.
In my mind, we're trying to restore a sane version of the person who was the Witch. How we go about that I don't care as long as it works. If we need to re-produce their soul gem, fine. If we can find a way for their grief seed to control a body, that's also fine. If we need to stick the grief seed into a machine and have it project their consciousness into a computer simulation MGNQ-style, that's the right direction at least.
Point is, don't obsess over the grief seed -> soul gem conversion that you lose sight of the true goal: un-Witching the Witch.
So does a Resonance days-like revival (wherein the revived meguca is sane, but does not retain any memories prior to witching out) would be acceptable, then?
It would be better than nothing? Partial success, work still to be done. If we explored all angles and doing better was actually impossible, I would be glad that we managed that much.
CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
- Location
- The former Rubber Capital of the World
In my book, yes. As long as they're completely (or pass as) Human. Witch traits are gonna be tricky to deal with if they show up, too.
Gadjo
Doka
I think the chance of grief seeds breaking down after repeated cleansings is pretty vanishingly small, Boone. From the repeated filling and emptying we've done over the course of the quest, I think we can confidently say that the seeds aren't breaking down over repeated uses. Why would they? A soul gem can be nearly filled and emptied without any structural damage to the gem a theoretically infinite number of times, so why would a grief seed be any different? Let's not waste science time on stuff we already know when there's so much that we don't.
Whatever we can get, really. If that's all we can get, then we'll just have to be okay with that.
That's basically what Kazumi is; but with all of the bullshit grief powers at our disposal, I suspect that we can do better.
(Note that I have only read the first few chapters and summaries of Kazumi Magica - I've been avoiding reading through the whole thing until we decide that we actually will head to Asunaro. 'Tis a silly place, and all that)
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Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
Note that we have no reason to believe that they are in misery or even conscious. The closest thing we have to a clear seed is a disconnected soul gem, and those sure as hell aren't conscious. Assuming that they are in misery as a matter of course goes against the current best evidence.
Hildegarde did in fact have a lower grief level than normal when it was "quiet". We took some out for the wings, and then Aurora took still more grief out in its attempt to hatch. The evidence is inconclusive. Grief pulling could be proportional to total grief available, or it could be based on if a seed has been cleared before. We currently can not say one way or the other.
If the drain is so slow then it's not a problem we need to worry about.
Gadjo
Doka
Eh. Pretty sure a witch is totally disconnected from the body it once had. They could easily be conscious, and I agree with ugo on this one: if we cannot save them, it would be preferable to kill them, rather than leave them to suffer.
Why do you think I'm talking about grief pulling? What grief pulls where is basically ancillary to every point I've made...
I'm talking about soul activity. We DID refill Hildegard, and doing so did NOT re-activate the soul/witch, not unless she was immediately deactivated again by taking the grief for wings.
Muramasa
Best Girl
No. None of these are examples of checking a seed as we refilled it to standard capacity.
Hildegarde was not filled to normal capacity when Aurora stole grief from it. All the grief that formed our wings at the time was Hildegarde's. We never fully refilled Hildegarde again. It's close but it's not a valid example.
Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
Indeed, and the point I'm making is that she may well have immediately deactivated again by taking grief for the wings. So we cannot say for sure.
A Witch is not a grief seed. We cannot assume they will act the same.
Muramasa
Best Girl
You acknowledged it and then stated afterwards there was no occasion in which we unfilled Hildegarde.
Then made a conclusion based on that statement when it wasn't a valid example.
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Our power grants us perfect control over grief, so we have a tendency to forget how dangerous it is. The gaseous form is known to be severely corrosive to physical objects, and in humans, grief generally causes things like suicide and murder. If anything, the surprising thing is that seeds or soul gems can contain it safely at all. So yes, I do think that there is a definite possibility that long term exposure or cycling grief into and out of a grief seed could damage it. Our past experiences make me cautiously optimistic that seeds really are resilient enough to be able to handle the grief, but I wouldn't want to assume that that's true without doing extensive testing first.
One additional test that we could do would be to find an old grief seed and see if we can detect any damage which it may have sustained over time due to the grief within it. But I don't know where we could find such a thing; Homura might have an old seed, but there's a good chance her shield keeps things suspended outside of the timestream (just like the boiling water), so that probably wouldn't help. Most seeds get used and then destroyed by Kyuubey, so there might not be any truly old seeds around. But the Sendai girls do have quite a collection, so it might be worth looking closely at their seeds at some point.
Unfill is definitely a case of using the wrong words; I meant 'empty'.
I don't see how this conclusion contradicts anything, though. The seed was not active after being skimmed from, so either we break seeds by skimming grief from them in the first place, or we never reactivated them by refilling them to normal?
Gadjo
Doka
But why would a grief seed be worse at holding grief than a soul gem? We know those are exposed to grief for long periods of time for as long as they exist. Really, it's a waste of a science vote. The grief seeds are specially made to contain grief. They can handle it.
Point is I'm not comfortable using grief seeds as a permanent power source. I'd like to find a way to make them unnecessary in some shape or form, so that we can at least destroy them.
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Muramasa
Best Girl
Hildegarde was fully emptied before being mostly refilled. Not sufficient proof we break a seed by skimming it.
It is proof it takes quite a bit to reactivate a witch though.
- Location
- East of the Sun and West of the Moon
I didn't have diabeetus before I looked, at least.By order of Firn, this.
Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
Or they do reactivate by filling to normal.
The conclusion has not been contradicted. Nor has it been proven, nor has it been disproven. It is not a conclusion. It is a theory, a guess, with no solid evidence that it goes one way or another. It could be true as easily as it could be false, so we can't use it to understand the world around us. Acting like it is certain when it is not certain is not right.
Also, on an unrelated note I now think that asking for a seed or two off of Mami would be a good idea. Because we'll finish all the critical stuff inside of 2 hours and not be able to start on the less critical stuff because we won't have the seeds on us. That's my prediction. I'm calling it now.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Sabrina: "I've done it. I've finally cracked the secret to reversing witchification."
*Sees Love in her Grief Senses. Realizes reverting Witches means turning them into Devils. Turns as white as her hair. Gemsplodes everything in the warehouse, which she sets on fire.*
Sabrina: "Nopenopenopenopenope."
*Sees Love in her Grief Senses. Realizes reverting Witches means turning them into Devils. Turns as white as her hair. Gemsplodes everything in the warehouse, which she sets on fire.*
Sabrina: "Nopenopenopenopenope."
CompassJimbo
Where’s Your North?
- Location
- The former Rubber Capital of the World
No creepy facial expressions and half-drunken behavior in my city!