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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Ugolino's vote + asking to borrow 2 seeds from Mami:

[x]Morning routine.
[x] Wake up calls for all of your friends. Including Sayaka.
-[x] Mention to Sayaka that we might try and finish off Kyosuke's healing during the day. Does she want us to wait for everyone to go as a group again?
[x] How are the Sendai groups doing?
[x] Call Ono. Ask how she's doing, if she's used the seed, and where she wants to meet up today. Bring up telepathy.
-[x] Like this.
[x] Walk with Mami and friends to school.
-[x] Ask Mami if you can borrow two seeds to do some experiments on. You'll bring them back at lunch.
[x] Go visit warehouse-kun. Pick up science where we left off.
 
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##### 3.21
[x]Morning routine.
[x]Wake up calls for all of your friends. Including Sayaka.
-[x]Mention to Sayaka that we might try and finish off Kyosuke's healing during the day. Does she want us to wait for everyone to go as a group again?
[x]How are the Sendai groups doing?
[x]Call Ono. Ask how she's doing, if she's used the seed, and where she wants to meet up today. Bring up telepathy.
-[x]Like this.
[x]Walk with Mami and friends to school.
[x]Go visit warehouse-kun. Pick up science where we left off.
No. of votes: 5
Ugolino, Jackercracks, Sereg, Muramasa, AnonymousRabbit

[x]Morning routine.
[x] Wake up calls for all of your friends. Including Sayaka.
-[x] Mention to Sayaka that we might try and finish off Kyosuke's healing during the day. Does she want us to wait for everyone to go as a group again?
[x] How are the Sendai groups doing?
[x] Call Ono. Ask how she's doing, if she's used the seed, and where she wants to meet up today. Bring up telepathy.
-[x] Like this.
[x] Walk with Mami and friends to school.
-[x] Ask Mami if you can borrow two seeds to do some experiments on. You'll bring them back at lunch.
[x] Go visit warehouse-kun. Pick up science where we left off.
No. of votes: 1
boonerunner
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boonerunner said:
On the contrary, understanding the true nature of clear seeds will be critical for moving forward, especially for cleansing, but also for de-witching. In particular, we need to answer the following two important questions:

Question 1: What happens when a seed is repeatedly filled and cleared? Does it get damaged? Does it become more/less "hungry"? Something else? Answering this question is essential for deciding whether seeds (normal or clear) are viable for a long term cleansing solution. Note that we would prefer not to use Hildegarde for this test, because we've been trying to leave it cleared.
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You will need to explain to me how exactly this is 'critical'. As the question you want answered only applies to the far far distant future (beyond the scope of the quest). Also completely underestimates the capacity of a clear seed. Even if Sabrina was unable to refresh it (this is extremely unlikely), a magical girl could practically go on for potentially years on one seed alone. But that doesn't seem to be 'long term' enough for you.

Question 2: Are clear seeds different in nature from normal seeds, or do they simply have less strength to pull grief away from other seeds? Knowing the answer to this question determines whether we need to have special safety precautions for clear seeds, or if we will need have to have general safety precautions for all seeds.
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We will need to have general safety precautions anyway simply because clear seeds can't be in contact with normal seeds. I agree finding a workaround to this problem is worthwhile but Sabrina determining weather or not the problem is due to the state of the witch core doesn't actually help anything. Sabrina is the only known magical girl that's capable of getting such a detailed read of a witch core anyway. How does that help other magical girls?

Paying close attention to these tests could also (potentially) give other insights into the nature of grief seeds (and therefore dewitching).
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Doubt it.

Answering these questions will require us to either hunt for witches on our own or else to ask Mami to lend us a seed or two.
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And tamper with them, making them potentially too dangerous to give back.

Remember, that it was the fact that we had not yet done these tests which was one of the primary factors that prevented us from giving a clear seed to Kyouko or Ono earlier today.
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No it certainly wasn't. Well not with me at least.

The clear seeds definitely have another secret to them (suspected to be dewitching) but that's not yet been determined. It's highly suspected that secret is related to exposing a clear seed to magic rather then grief.

That's really the primary reason clear seeds aren't being distributed.

The conventional uses of clear seeds has been covered and the primary danger is known. It has nothing to do with the experiments you want to do.
 
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Guys! I have seen the light!

Sabrina must make Killer Death Cat grief construct! especially if we face any sea based witch!

and we shall name it salem! There is no alternative!

 
Muramasa said:
You will need to explain to me how exactly this is 'critical'. As the question you want answered only applies to the far far distant future (beyond the scope of the quest). Also completely underestimates the capacity of a clear seed. Even if Sabrina was unable to refresh it (and this is exceedingly unlikely). A magical girl could practically go on for potentially years on one seed alone. But that seems to be not 'long term' enough for you.
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No, that is not 'long term' enough for me. The actual useful life of a seed might be beyond the end of this quest, but we want to implement a truly long-term solution, not one that would potentially fail a year after we're done voting. The planning for long term plans starts in the present, and that means making sure that clear seeds are a valid long-term option.

We will need to have general safety precautions anyway simply because clear seeds can't be in contact with normal seeds. I agree finding a workaround to this problem is worthwhile but Sabrina determining weather or not the problem is due to the state of the witch core doesn't actually help anything. Sabrina is the only known magical girl that's capable of getting such a detailed read of a witch core anyway. How does that help other magical girls?
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There are known safety issues with the interaction between clear seeds and normal seeds, but we don't know enough to know what is causing this problem or how prevalent it is. We need to understand the full extent of the safety issue so that we can predict the dangers and create safety precautions that will deal with them. If the grief transfer is due to a syphoning effect, then our current safety plan of "keep clear seeds and normal seeds separate" is not good enough. More research is needed to show whether every seed needs to be kept separate from all others or if some types of seeds can be stored together. It's our responsibility to know the risks associated with the seeds we distribute because that affects the safety of every magical girl who uses them.

And tamper with them, making them potentially too dangerous to give back.
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If clear seeds are perfectly safe (which you seem to be assuming), then there's no problem. But if the seeds are not safe, then we need to know as soon as possible. We're only planning on doing the clear/refill operation on one of the seeds, so if it turns out to not be safe, then we can go hunting and find Mami a replacement for it. She already has 4 seeds; she can spare the temporary loss of one of them.

Remember, that it was the fact that we had not yet done these tests which was one of the primary factors that prevented us from giving a clear seed to Kyouko or Ono earlier today.
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No it certainly wasn't. Well not with me at least.

The clear seeds definitely have another secret to them (suspected to be dewitching) but that's not been yet been determined. It's highly suspected that secret is related to exposing a clear seed to magic rather then grief.

That's really the primary reason clear seeds aren't being distributed.
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What? If there is some secret that Firnagzen has brought up about clear seeds, then I've never heard of it and it certainly wasn't brought up during the discussion for whether or not to give a clear seed to Kyouko/Yuma this morning. I just reread that discussion and it was all about safety. I (and a number of others) were all for giving them a clear seed, but some people kept going on about how it was "dangerous", without actually specifying why (beyond the obvious, easily avoidable danger). My takeaway from the whole situation was that we needed additional experimentation to prove that the clear seeds actually are safe. And indeed, after I gave it some thought, I decided that it was just as well that we put safety first.
 
boonerunner said:
What? If there is some secret that Firnagzen has brought up about clear seeds, then I've never heard of it and it certainly wasn't brought up during the discussion for whether or not to give a clear seed to Kyouko/Yuma this morning.
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The issue is that it has been suggested (I don't know to what extent Firnagzen has encouraged this) that a clear seed is somehow similar to a soul gem, maybe even more similar to a soul gem than to a normal grief seed.

Which raises a question - if a clear seed has enough "capacity" to be used for years, and a soul gem clearly doesn't... well, have we tried seeing if it's possible to drain "baseline" grief from a soul gem? Is there anything there that is left alone during normal cleansing that could be pulled out with more effort?
 
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AuraTwilight said:
He might crush on us if we do it by ourselves.

Which is why we CRUSH HIM FIRS-No wait MECHA GURREN ZILLA LAGANN doesn't solve all problems.

...The fact that it doesn't is a failure on our part.
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MECHA GURREN ZILLA LAGANN has eye lasers. What's stopping us from making those healing eye lasers?
techsy730 said:
What I remember on the science list, in rough order of priority.

Directly contribute to short and mid-term goals:
-Continue grief seed experiments where they got cut off (someone mind digging through and finding what items on the grief seed experiment vote that got cut off?)
-Clear grief seed experiments
-Practicing whatever magic we think we need to do next to "reverse witchify" grief seeds (enchantment magic is the leading theory, right?) (might or might not want to wait until we can practice with Mami)

Potentially very useful if they work, even if they don't directly contribute to goals:
-Barrier creation
-"Artificial body" creation
-Testing limits of our power; finding ways to expand and or bypass limits (more general item, will need to fill in specific experiments)

Somewhat gimmicky but seems to have decent interest and support:
-Familiar creation
-Projectile weapon creation (like railgun)
-Testing for other "reality screwy" properties we can imbue grief with

Almost pure gimmick:
-Maintaining consciousness and awareness as only a soul gem
-Magical girl "mitosis" (what happens when we heal a part of our body forcefully kept seperate from the rest of it?

I think we have time to focus on more than just one or two high priority items, especially if we are willing to bump down the time spent on the lower priority ones hour or less.


Here is what I personally would like to see this science session:
-finish grief seed experiments that got cut off from last vote
-try witch Barrier creation (not too much time spent on this unless something very promising seems to turn up)
-clear grief seed experiments (if not covered by first item)
-rest of time spent on practicing whatever magic we think we need to do next to "reverse witchify" grief seeds (enchantment magic is the leading theory, right?) IF we think that doing it by ourselves rather than waiting to do it with Mami can be productive.
--Otherwise experiments to what sort of "Witchy effects" can persist outside of our control range and those that can't (why are things healed by our healing magic while our magic is grief boosted not persisted, but physical manipulatipulation by "Witchy stuff" is, Etc)
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We really should get a coupl of google docs for our SCIENCE ideas and our daily to-do list. Maybe two or three thread regulars sig the links too?

Also, I had a though on a possible experiment on creating spare meguca meat puppets:
  1. Get three potted plants
  2. Break off a stem or branch from all three
  3. Heal plants using Gauntlet-enhanced healing magic
  4. Dismiss gauntlet, move out of range and/or consciously release grief control over small area around plants
  5. Have a dedicated healer apply healing magic on plant A. After 15-30 minutes, apply same on plant B. Plant C is control, leave as is.
  6. Record results after one, six, and 24 hours since experiment.
Notes:
Theory is that healing magic might make grief-generated biomass permanent.
We could ask Kyoko to let Yuma be the healer as payment for another cleansing seassion
I used plants, because it's a good starting point. If we get any progress in this, we could upgrade to mice.
 
boonerunner said:
No, that is not 'long term' enough for me. The actual useful life of a seed might be beyond the end of this quest, but we want to implement a truly long-term solution, not one that would potentially fail a year after we're done voting. The planning for long term plans starts in the present, and that means making sure that clear seeds are a valid long-term option.
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...ugh.


There are known safety issues with the interaction between clear seeds and normal seeds, but we don't know enough to know what is causing this problem or how prevalent it is. We need to understand the full extent of the safety issue so that we can predict the dangers and create safety precautions that will deal with them.
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We have one. It's called keeping the seeds the fuck away from eachother.

If the grief transfer is due to a syphoning effect, then our current safety plan of "keep clear seeds and normal seeds separate" is not good enough.
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Yes it is.

More research is needed to show whether every seed needs to be kept separate from all others or if some types of seeds can be stored together.
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There is no good reason to keep a tampered seed in contact with a normal seed. Same goes for two tampered seeds in close contact with each other.

It's our responsibility to know the risks associated with the seeds we distribute because that affects the safety of every magical girl who uses them.
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We know the risk. You just want to know if that same danger triggers under conditions we have no good reason to allow anyway.

If clear seeds are perfectly safe (which you seem to be assuming), then there's no problem.
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No, I clearly said there was a danger to it. However as that danger is manageable and wouldn't immediately explode in a magical girls face anyway (Mami and Homu sensed an imminent witch hatching immediately). This danger alone is not enough to ban the use of a clear seed.

But if the seeds are not safe, then we need to know as soon as possible. We're only planning on doing the clear/refill operation on one of the seeds, so if it turns out to not be safe, then we can go hunting and find Mami a replacement for it. She already has 4 seeds; she can spare the temporary loss of one of them.
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Not a good enough reason in my book to tamper with Mami's seeds.


What? If there is some secret that Firnagzen has brought up about clear seeds, then I've never heard of it and it certainly wasn't brought up during the discussion for whether or not to give a clear seed to Kyouko/Yuma this morning.
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Firn did hint to a secret to the clear seeds. No he didn't specifically say that secret was dewitching. That's all I'm going to say on the matter.

I just reread that discussion and it was all about safety. I (and a number of others) were all for giving them a clear seed, but some people kept going on about how it was "dangerous", without actually specifying why (beyond the obvious, easily avoidable danger). My takeaway from the whole situation was that we needed additional experimentation to prove that the clear seeds actually are safe. And indeed, after I gave it some thought, I decided that it was just as well that we put safety first.
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Assuming a magical girl is using the clear seed conventionally and isn't putting the seed in contact with normal seeds, those seeds shouldn't be dangerous by themselves.

The only reason there would be a danger is that a magical girl is doing something she clearly isn't supposed to be doing. So I personally have no issue with limited distribution of clear seeds even now, but I don't object to finding out what [REDACTED] is first though.
 
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Muramasa said:
If the grief transfer is due to a siphoning effect, then our current safety plan of "keep clear seeds and normal seeds separate" is not good enough.
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Yes it is.
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The point is that if siphoning is the cause of the grief transfer then we have to be careful to keep all clear seeds away from each other as well as away from normal grief seeds. And we even have to watch normal grief seeds that are stored with other normal grief seeds to make sure that one doesn't start siphoning away grief from the others.

There is no good reason to keep a tampered seed in contact with a normal seed. Same goes for two tampered seeds in close contact with each other.
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This is a more strict safety measure than was previously suggested. If we choose not to actually test the seeds, then we should (of course) use the stricter safety measure, but if it turns out that the grief transfer is due to nature of the seeds being changed (rather than siphoning), then it might be possible to store clear seeds together with no ill effects.

We know the risk. You just want to know if that same danger triggers under conditions we have no good reason to allow anyway.
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We know one risk which occurs under a limited set of conditions. Knowing what other conditions might (or might not) cause the danger to trigger is an essential part of understanding that danger.

Assuming a magical girl is using the clear seed conventionally and isn't putting the seed in contact with normal seeds, those seeds shouldn't be dangerous by themselves.
The only reason there would be a danger is that a magical girl is doing something she clearly isn't supposed to be doing. So I personally have no issue with limited distribution of clear seeds even now.
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I completely agree, actually. And yet, the vote earlier today was that Sabrina did not consider clear seeds safe enough to give them to Kyouko and Yuma and Ono. And since then we have done nothing new to prove that clear seeds actually are safe (and the test with Oriko will not yield fruit until a significant amount of time passes or if we ask her to use precognition). So even if you do consider clear seeds to be safe (when used properly), can you at least consider the possibility that others need additional tests in order to be assured of that?

In addition, determining whether or not we actually changed the nature of the clear seeds is also relevant to the dewitching effort.
 
defenestrator said:
I had a though on a possible experiment on creating spare meguca meat puppets:
  1. Get three potted plants
  2. Break off a stem or branch from all three
  3. Heal plants using Gauntlet-enhanced healing magic
  4. Dismiss gauntlet, move out of range and/or consciously release grief control over small area around plants
  5. Have a dedicated healer apply healing magic on plant A. After 15-30 minutes, apply same on plant B. Plant C is control, leave as is.
  6. Record results after one, six, and 24 hours since experiment.
Notes:
Theory is that healing magic might make grief-generated biomass permanent.
We could ask Kyoko to let Yuma be the healer as payment for another cleansing seassion
I used plants, because it's a good starting point. If we get any progress in this, we could upgrade to mice.
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This looks like a great experiment to do. But note that we can test each of the following cases even without access to a dedicated healer:
1. Normal healing (as a control)
2. Healing wand
3. Magic gauntlet enhanced healing
4. Healing machine which uses raw biomass as an input rather than creating it from thin air

Actually testing these things on plants (or mice) is better than completely relying on Oriko's precognition to measure what happens when the healed tissue leaves our control radius.

Dirtnap said:
They don't. Normal Seeds only siphon from Seeds Sabrina has tampered with.
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We haven't yet tested this conjecture. We have anecdotal evidence, but it's possible that the siphoning happens extremely slowly when the grief levels are similar, so no one has ever noticed before. But it's not a difficult thing to test one way or the other; all we need is to temporarily borrow two seeds to try it out.
 
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