It's actually an idea that had been kicking around in my head for a while because a similar arrangement would be the only way to morally justify continuing to use grief seeds to cleanse people once we have the ability to convert seeds back into meguca. If witches can be hunted efficiently enough that they don't have time to kill anyone (and the original body is recovered or identically reproduced), then a witchout would not be that much worse than voluntary stasis. The emotional trauma would still be pretty bad, but ordinary humans do deal with emotional trauma on a regular basis.
... Huh? While we can reduce witches to an inactive state, to the best of our knowledge both becoming and being a witch are horrendous.
It is preferable not to reverse witching until - unless - we can prevent a subsequent return to witchdom without using grief seeds. Otherwise, we're both reducing the ability for magical girls to cleanse and creating a perverse incentive for QB to make vast numbers of contracts, leaving us to revert the witches, over and over again, QB profiting every time. That'd be nothing short of hellish.
 
Can you tell us when Mitakihara was founded and why?

Huh. That's historical geography, stuff I covered in elementary/middle school - at college level it's all... geographical economy and production patterns, demographics and population statistics, gentrification and urbanization, etc etc (cultural geography) on one hand, soil chemistry and weathering and risk assessments and geology and whatnot on the other, and then some cartography and geographical information systems on yet another hand and now there's three hands and that's nowhere near an exhaustive list, geography is an extremely broad and fascinating subject that bleeds into basically every other subject there is and now I'll stop gushing about my major sorry.

Ahem.

My point was that, since Mitakihara's middle school curriculum is ridiculous, their geography level might be similar to college in real life.

And also that it's our fault that Mami didn't study and that we should offer to help her out. Whether she'll accept or not is a different matter entirely.
 
... Huh? While we can reduce witches to an inactive state, to the best of our knowledge both becoming and being a witch are horrendous.
It is preferable not to reverse witching until - unless - we can prevent a subsequent return to witchdom without using grief seeds. Otherwise, we're both reducing the ability for magical girls to cleanse and creating a perverse incentive for QB to make vast numbers of contracts, leaving us to revert the witches, over and over again, QB profiting every time. That'd be nothing short of hellish.
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. The idea is for people to agree to be a seed for a set amount of time. Perhaps a year every 15 would work, or a month a year, whichever is least horrifying. A person would be a witch for a few minutes and then be a seed (and presumably unconscious) for the rest of the time.

I wouldn't call half an hour of trauma followed by being frozen for a year once a decade hellish. Hell, I'd probably take that deal willingly in exchange for roof-hopping, magical powers and immortality.
 
Sabrina: "..."
Mami: "Sabrina?"
Sabrina: "Okay, let's skip that one, what's the second question?"
Mami: "Oh, I'm sorry Sabrina. I'm sorry I forgot your amnesia. Please don't mind me, in fact never mind my question."

His actual power is relatively small, his only weapons misdirection and manipulation.
He can also erase, change memories, rip people souls from bodies, and by being capable of interstellar travel is likely also capable of dropping plain old rocks from orbit.

@FlatlineAskari: Yeah, that has been bouncing around my head a while too. We could find a way to reverse witching but not actually put it in practice, or get the magical girls to save more people than them re-witching would kill, but it is rather dicey situation.

@Jackercracks: I belive FA's point is unrelated to discussed system and only about reversing witching at all.
 
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. The idea is for people to agree to be a seed for a set amount of time. Perhaps a year every 15 would work, or a month a year, whichever is least horrifying. A person would be a witch for a few minutes and then be a seed (and presumably unconscious) for the rest of the time.
... No. We have observed that seeds that aren't empty aren't inactive, and that witch minds are an incredibly unhappy place to be. Even if this didn't hold true, becoming a witch means succumbing to despair, completely and utterly, and then dying. This is a terrible, awful plan.
 
I think you've got the wrong end of the stick there. The idea is for people to agree to be a seed for a set amount of time. Perhaps a year every 15 would work, or a month a year, whichever is least horrifying. A person would be a witch for a few minutes and then be a seed (and presumably unconscious) for the rest of the time.

I wouldn't call half an hour of trauma followed by being frozen for a year once a decade hellish. Hell, I'd probably take that deal willingly in exchange for roof-hopping, magical powers and immortality.
Becoming a witch is a psyche destroying experience that compounds all the failures you've ever had upon your mind all at the same time. It is not like just being really sad or in stasis. It's analogous to volunteering to have a mental breakdown and then being used as a depository for despair for a year, once every 15 years. You don't just walk off a major mental breakdown. That shit sticks with you. It would be torture to ask someone to do that.
 
He can also erase, change memories, rip people souls from bodies, and by being capable of interstellar travel is likely also capable of dropping plain old rocks from orbit.
Yeah, that's partly why I want to find a way not to have to fight the sucker. I really don't want to see what the Incubators are capable of when they send a combat model instead of fluffy pants.
Becoming a witch is a psyche destroying experience that compounds all the failures you've ever had upon your mind all at the same time. It is not like just being really sad or in stasis. It's analogous to volunteering to have a mental breakdown and then being used as a depository for despair for a year, once every 15 years. You don't just walk off a major mental breakdown. That shit sticks with you. It would be torture to ask someone to do that.
... No. We have observed that seeds that aren't empty aren't inactive, and that witch minds are an incredibly unhappy place to be. Even if this didn't hold true, becoming a witch means succumbing to despair, completely and utterly, and then dying. This is a terrible, awful plan.
I'll wait till we talk to the first revived Meguca for that one. I'm still hoping the girl remains unconscious the whole time they're a seed and that we're sensing the Witch, which is a separate entity. If they are awake in there then the Meguca system is an order of magnitude worse than I thought.

And yes, it's a bad time. It is also the least bad plan I've seen. The other ones all involve people actually dying instead of just feeling like it. Tell me a better plan.

Anyway, this can all wait till we wake the first one up. Any plans we make before then won't hold because we don't know just yet.
 
No, we know they'll pass up potentially-greater long-term gains for larger short-term ones, and that the yield from those however-many-times-as-many girls dying are orders of magnitude greater than them carrying on living. Like, to the extent that it's entirely plausible that there is no Earth-supportable population of megucas that can equal the output of the current system by living.
Uh, I'm going to need to see how you came to this conclusion, because as far as I'm aware we don't KNOW for certain that the Incubators prefer larger immediate payoff over longer term payoff. We suspected that to be the case in regards to Kriemhild Gretchen, but due to the fuzziness of the numbers involved it's not something we can tell for certain. For all we know Madoka witching out really does provide enough energy to create 10 new earths from scratch.

Sayaka's grief spiral can be looked at in a different way. The girl was (relatively) stable before she contracted. It only took a week for her to spiral out of control to the point where she was willing to mutilate her body, break-up with her best friend, murder some jerks on a train, and witchout. This despite the fact that she had close friends and family who cared about her and tried to talk to her and a time-traveller who tried to prevent it. Grief spirals do show signs and there might be time to react in many situations, but they also appear to be extremely difficult to stop once they get going.

Another point: what about all of the witches that we have found so far who did not result from anyone we know witching out? Either they were generated spontaneously (somehow) or else they were familiars who matured or else they were girls (like Nagisa) who were contracted by Kyuubey but who witched out almost immediately afterward. Depending on the circumstances, grief spirals can happen very quickly.
I'm pretty sure you are dramatically overstating the effects of high levels grief on emotions. Sayaka's reaction was perfectly understandable given what she was going through, and quite frankly it didn't require any supernatural assistance for her to come to the conclusions or take the actions that she does. Grief makes it easier for negative emotions to take hold, but as far as I'm aware it doesn't introduce negative emotions where there was none before.

Anyway, you are missing the point, the point is that as long as access to cleansing is provided, either through grief seeds or Sabrina's cleansing, it's not possible to have an "accidental" witchout, even for someone who is actively suicidal it still took close to a week for a witchout to happen.
 
Becoming a witch is a psyche destroying experience that compounds all the failures you've ever had upon your mind all at the same time. It is not like just being really sad or in stasis. It's analogous to volunteering to have a mental breakdown and then being used as a depository for despair for a year, once every 15 years. You don't just walk off a major mental breakdown. That shit sticks with you. It would be torture to ask someone to do that.
I agree. My proposal was not to induce witchouts but to rather to use the Soul Gems directly as grief repositories (but only if necessary due to a lack of available grief seeds due to overpopulation or witch reversing). Meguca in the soul gem state are known to be completely unaware of the world around them, so it should be fine. We haven't experimented yet to see if soul gems are capable of cleansing on their own, but it should theoretically be possible. And even if that doesn't work, we can probably still convert soul gems to grief seeds without requiring any trauma at all (i.e. if we can turn grief seeds into soul gems, then this would simply be a matter of going in the other direction).

... Huh? While we can reduce witches to an inactive state, to the best of our knowledge both becoming and being a witch are horrendous.
It is preferable not to reverse witching until - unless - we can prevent a subsequent return to witchdom without using grief seeds.
In my opinion it would be worse to wake up a girl who had been witched to tell her "You've been out of circulation for a few years. We could have awakened you at any time, but we were trying to find a better way of cleansing that didn't require using grief seeds. We eventually found a better way, but in the meantime we used your soul to store grief for other magical girls. Without your knowledge or consent, but you don't mind, right?" It would be better if we can start reversing witching as soon as possible: we can setup a system that would provide knowledge and ask for consent and allow girls to willingly help each other by providing sources of cleansing (whether as clear grief seeds or as soul gems with the body in temporary stasis).

Otherwise, we're both reducing the ability for magical girls to cleanse and creating a perverse incentive for QB to make vast numbers of contracts, leaving us to revert the witches, over and over again, QB profiting every time.
Kyuubey already has an incentive to make as many contracts as he can. Reversing witching just mitigates some of the damage that has already been caused.
 
I agree. My proposal was not to induce witchouts but to rather to use the Soul Gems directly as grief repositories (but only if necessary due to a lack of available grief seeds due to overpopulation or witch reversing). Meguca in the soul gem state are known to be completely unaware of the world around them, so it should be fine. We haven't experimented yet to see if soul gems are capable of cleansing on their own, but it should theoretically be possible. And even if that doesn't work, we can probably still convert soul gems to grief seeds without requiring any trauma at all (i.e. if we can turn grief seeds into soul gems, then this would simply be a matter of going in the other direction).
They wouldn't be conscious until they witched, at which point the severed connection to their body would become moot. Purposeful witching is a no-no. Let's not do it.
 
In my opinion it would be worse to wake up a girl who had been witched to tell her "You've been out of circulation for a few years. We could have awakened you at any time, but we were trying to find a better way of cleansing that didn't require using grief seeds. We eventually found a better way, but in the meantime we used your soul to store grief for other magical girls. Without your knowledge or consent, but you don't mind, right?" It would be better if we can start reversing witching as soon as possible: we can setup a system that would provide knowledge and ask for consent and allow girls to willingly help each other by providing sources of cleansing (whether as clear grief seeds or as soul gems with the body in temporary stasis).
Technically true, but it'd be annoying, disrupting and ultimately more time-consuming if we had to unwitch same girl multiple times. Time spent on that could be spent on working towards worldwide instant cleansing system by electricity network, for example.

This is a solvable question if we know the difficulty of respiraling, though, as then induced witchouts and preventing induced witchouts would be only two variables.

However, it is an argument to keep Sabrina around for QB.
Kyuubey already has an incentive to make as many contracts as he can. Reversing witching just mitigates some of the damage that has already been caused.
Well, actually, he might want to make less contracts, given that he sometimes spends time to get people to witch out instead of making more contracts. He could just spend all his time on same group of high-potential 'guca and not contract any more (unless a girl with higher potential than the lowest potential in high-potential group appears)
 
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I might be wrong, but I thought that Kriemhild Gretchen was powerful enough to kill all life in the solar system within minutes,

Three days and only the planet, but close enough.

so its creation would be a one time payoff of grief.

No. I'm saying that based on what we know, Kyuubey should be able to continue collecting from Gretchen post-witchout, from a distance, forever.

A lot of grief, naturally, but (barring a Madokami style wish where she specifically absorbed the grief of every witch past, present, and future) unlikely to be equal to the total grief production of humanity over the course of tens of thousands of years.

Every time Homura goes back, she gets the Karmic potential of the previous entire Universe added to her. She should be more than equal to a hundred Universes worth of witches.


It doesn't matter that most girls don't realize the enmity or don't act on it: as Homura displays in Rebellion, it only takes one girl to evict or enslave or destroy the entire incubator race for all time. Kyuubey is messing about with entities capable of reality warping wishes and magic, so he really ought to be more careful about ensuring our goodwill, even if it does mean that the grief harvest would be less efficient. This is one area where the analogy of farming breaks down: humans have real leverage to use against the incubators if it comes to a fight (or a negotiation).

Okay, here is something you have to understand. Incubators do not feel fear. They do not feel threatened. They have never felt these things. They have evolved to be completely without a risk-assessment response. They have no experience with things that have actually threatened them and feeling risk aversion has had no benefit to them on an evolutionary scale as nothing from their home planet even approaches being a threat to them. The concept that they should be careful is completely foreign to their mindset. They have no fight or flight response. That is why they act like this.



Do they do geography differently where you're from? My lessons were all about volcanoes and how rivers form and weathering on cliff faces.

Two different sections of the same subject in the syllabus I studied. Political borders, capitals, town development, population demographics, imports and exports etc. were all included as were said things on river and cliff formation.

Becoming a witch is a psyche destroying experience that compounds all the failures you've ever had upon your mind all at the same time. It is not like just being really sad or in stasis. It's analogous to volunteering to have a mental breakdown and then being used as a depository for despair for a year, once every 15 years. You don't just walk off a major mental breakdown. That shit sticks with you. It would be torture to ask someone to do that.

To put it another way, it is implied that a witch would immediately suicide out of despair if it was capable of doing so. A witch is feeling horrific suicidal depression on top of unbearable agony. To the point that they kill the humans around them in an attempt to gain temporary relief.
 
Is there a workable and reasonable alternative?
Direct cleansing, at this point. We intend to continue figuring out what we can achieve with our powers, so let's not settle for a sub-par solution right now. We have so much more to learn before we give up.

Also, again: we've had this argument before, we'll have it again. Let's suspend it and talk about it again when it has an immediate impact on the vote, eh?
 
Direct cleansing, at this point. We intend to continue figuring out what we can achieve with our powers, so let's not settle for a sub-par solution right now. We have so much more to learn before we give up.

Also, again: we've had this argument before, we'll have it again. Let's suspend it and talk about it again when it has an immediate impact on the vote, eh?
I reject that direct cleansing is a practical worldwide solution, but yeah, another time.
 
Direct cleansing, at this point. We intend to continue figuring out what we can achieve with our powers, so let's not settle for a sub-par solution right now. We have so much more to learn before we give up.

Also, again: we've had this argument before, we'll have it again. Let's suspend it and talk about it again when it has an immediate impact on the vote, eh?
Science idea - see if we can make a magical enchantment for attracting grief. (So we can apply it everywhere to something omnipresent like water, air, electricity network or even fundamental force like gravity.)

We can ask Oriko if it would be possible, she is right here.
 
It kind of sounds like one, regardless of intent.

I think she knows that. She takes her studies very seriously. She hasn't asked us for help with any of her other classes.
It really doesn't to me. I mean Mami is really sensitive so we should be careful. .but she also cares a lot about her studies.
 
Science idea - see if we can make a magical enchantment for attracting grief. (So we can apply it everywhere to something omnipresent like water, air, electricity network or even fundamental force like gravity.)

We can ask Oriko if it would be possible, she is right here.
I've been suggesting this as one of our future experiments. Ideally, we can construct an object which will suck in all the planet's grief for us or something. (Then we can begin the inter-steller phase of our mission)
 
Um. "Yes" is not an argument.
I presume that you're referring to me, despite the fact that you did not specify. I do not think humanity needs wishes anymore, and I think of our relationship with the incubators to be a parasitic one, not truly beneficial to us. Kyubey says we would most likely be living naked in caves without him, but then I think that's conceit; he's surprised to find that emotional creatures can coexist at all, so it would be natural to underestimate us. Regardless, I think humanity no longer needs wishes, and you think they do. May as well just agree to disagree until we're actually making a vote on the subject, since this argument has been long enough already, and we aren't getting anywhere with it.
 
[x]CornyBones

I forgot to vote. I like the way this one is put. Diffuses the tension.
 
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