Crasian01
Insane Incubator
Rephrased, because I disagree strongly with your wording:
"If you increase the number of witchouts that happen within a month, then you get more witchouts in 12 months than you did before."
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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Rephrased, because I disagree strongly with your wording:
"If you increase the number of witchouts that happen within a month, then you get more witchouts in 12 months than you did before."
Yep, exactly.
FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
- Location
- Elsewhere
- Pronouns
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'Growing' population? Dude, QB isn't making contracts for the good of its health. If we destroy grief rather than letting it be collected, making contracts will be uneconomic, and it won't happen. The meguca population will (very, very slowly) dwindle to nothing.
Gadjo
Doka
Someone was hypothetically suggesting it to make sure a Sabrinatopia would have enough seeds to sustain all the megucas since such society would have exponential population growth due to lack of fatalities. I consider it a moot point because I would prefer that our endgame include no more new contracts.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Also we haven't yet figured out if feeding familiars grief can cause them to mature.
Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
Why? Because all the other options lead to rather large numbers of people dying in the medium-long term, and I rather like people not dying. Basically, if we do our job right, there will only be a tiny number of witch outs each year, and magical girls will not often die from other causes. The population of magical girls rises unchecked until there are more girls than seeds. This keeps on until 10 years down the line there's 20 girls per 1 clear seed and people start witching out again because they couldn't both be near it simultaneously. At which point big groups of magical girls start going to war for more seeds.
We can't actually stop them with sanctions, because the second we do they're forced to go to war anyway to get the cleanses we're no longer giving them. Unless we're empress of everything, in which case people just start witching from not enough seeds to go around. Either way, you get mass witch-outs, because when someone dies and all the 50 other girls knew her and there's only 3 seeds to go around things naturally start to go sideways. I'm assuming here that we don't manage to beat the galaxy-spanning empire of Incubators.
So yeah, that's why. Because all the other options are somehow even worse. Unless we can beat the Incubators, which I'm not convinced is possible without manipulating wishes, and I'm pretty sure Kyubey would refuse to contract a wish that could destroy his race.
I was assuming that if we couldn't beat the Incubators, we would need to keep them happy with a steady flow of grief, because otherwise we'd be dealing with assassination attempts every other week, and it's not like we need the stuff.
Of course, if feeding grief to familiars makes them mature, then we're good to go with no ethical problems at all, and everything I just said becomes completely irrelevant. That would fix just about everything really.
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FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
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... And you think that being the one weak spot of the system that keeps all the megucas in the world from rapidly witching wouldn't lead them to try to maximize their returns over our dead body?
Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
Yep, by keeping us alive they keep a massive, growing population of meguca alive meaning that they can eventually harvest many times more grief out of the planet than before. If there's 20x the meguca on the planet and the population keeps rising then just normal magic use should eventually create more grief than the witchouts of the current population would have. 100 years from now they get 5x the grief out of the planet each year and it should keep growing year on year.... And you think that being the one weak spot of the system that keeps all the megucas in the world from rapidly witching wouldn't lead them to try to maximize their returns over our dead body?
Course, we can sidestep that if it turns out others can wish for grief control powers as well. I'd rather not be the single point of failure.
FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
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No, we know that seeds are a vastly more attractive prize than byproduct grief. Letting a large population of megucas (which doesn't even have a compelling reason to regularly use magic) keep on ticking isn't consistent with Incubator MO when they could be ... encouraged to go pop.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Oooor... They could encourage them to go rock.
Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
In a normal population, yes. A seed has masses more grief in it than you get out of a meguca. At some ratio though, whether it's 10x as many magical girls or 100x as many magical girls, you start getting more grief out of normal magic use.
Incubators want the most grief they can get.
Say they get 100 grief out of a witch, and 5 grief a year from a magical girl, all we have to do is wait until there are 20 times as many magical girls, and the incubators get 100 grief a year again, see? And then once there are 40 times as many, they get 200 a year, understand? And it doesn't really matter what the ratio is, because it's just a matter of waiting long enough, right? And they can keep getting more and more grief until it's dozens of times as much as they would be getting anyway. Why would they pass up such a good deal?
- Location
- spinning
Magic usage is for it's own sake; see Mami randomly using magic around the house because not conserving it.
It is likely that girls would make wishes that benefit them, and thus also get beneficial magic relating to said wish.
That said, this is merely a multiplier on payoff.
It may not matter if there is exponential benefit to getting grief earlier.
It becomes a question of how much early bonus is worth - at sufficiently small, making a new contract is better than spending time to encourage witchout, especially when knowing that you live longer further encourages contracts.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I think grief seeds generate grief over time, so each seed is already giving off unlimited energy.
FlatlineAskari
*feline scrutiny*
- Location
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No, we know they'll pass up potentially-greater long-term gains for larger short-term ones, and that the yield from those however-many-times-as-many girls dying are orders of magnitude greater than them carrying on living. Like, to the extent that it's entirely plausible that there is no Earth-supportable population of megucas that can equal the output of the current system by living.
Gadjo
Doka
Hopefully we won't be encouraging additional contracts, and we definitely won't be sacrificing ~10 people per girl. Familiar farming, for us in particular, is pointlessly evil.
Kyubey has been shown to be unable to refuse wishes. He could just not approach certain people, but he never refuses a contract.
Yes.
We are the system breaker, people. Settling for a mildly less shitty system where we throw civilians under the bus for seeds is wrong and short-sighted. We can do better.
- Location
- spinning
I would prefer that our endgame would be everyone human would be a magical girl/boy with magic usage allowing population far in excess of current predicted 20 billion cap on earth, and colonization of other planets with similar populations.
That depends: here, we have to compare the grief a grief seed passively generates and generates on initial appearance to meguca's day-to-day generation.
As long as the latter number is >0, there exists sufficient number of megucas to surpass that. How long could a meguca live on single clear seed, again?
Situation where every meguca goes around healing people isn't less shitty system, though, there is massive benefit to humanity there even beyond the ability to make a wish: it is a positive system.
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Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
How do we know that? So far as I'm aware, this is the only time such a situations has come up.
I'm sure you're still not quite understanding. These are the assumptions I was making:
We fail to destroy the Incubators
Incubators continue to make contracts with girls with potential
We succeed at making at worldwide meguca society with very few witch outs/deaths
The magical girl population rises
No new seeds are generated, because we keep witch outs to very small number
Familiars cannot be matured into witches with just grief
Under those circumstances, huge numbers of people die. We also fail to break the system, we just make it okay for a decade and then everything becomes horrible again. I want to avoid that, on the basis that more people not dying is a good thing, and suffering is bad. I'm trying to figure out ways for that to happen. If you have better solutions, I would like to hear them, because I'd rather avoid doing things that way.
It would explain hatching but I don't think I've ever heard of meguca seed stockpiles slowly becoming useless over time as the seeds create grief. What makes you think it is the case?
@Jackercracks
While imagining the worst-case scenario is good for contingencies at the least, it's also not likely to happen.
While imagining the worst-case scenario is good for contingencies at the least, it's also not likely to happen.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
One the PMAS side, when we were examining Hildegarde's 'core', we had to keep drawing grief away from it, because she kept making more out of nothing. I assume the same would happen inside the seed, at a slower rate.
On the canon side, it would make a lot of sense for Kyubey to want Gretchen's seed over all the future Earth girls' seeds if seeds were perpetual motion machines, rather than one time use batteries.
First, why bother with a large stable population when a larger population that still witches is equally viable for the Incubators? That is to say, the Incubators can force population pressure to
maintain the same or greater rate of witchout as they had before, while gathering the grief collected by clear seeds. In other words, there's no incentive to establish or continue cooperation under a grief trade scenario.
Secondly, if farming was possible, why isn't it standard procedure? We have circumstantial evidence that the Incubators might harvest seeds non-destructively, as otherwise the passive grief generation of an active seed is wasted. If so, they can already support a farming model by re-providing those seeds to magical girls. That this does not happen suggests that they prefer regular witchouts at a lower population to harvesting the regular grief generation of a larger population. Or that s
eeds are in fact harvested destructively, which suggests different cooperative angles are possible.
I can't really see the point in proposing an endgame scenario that is predicated on far too many assumptions, some incorrect rather than merely unknown, and then propose a false dilemma based on that scenario.
You really love your false dilemmas. Just because sufficient magical girls can surpass passive generation doesn't mean that both are not better than one or the other.
maintain the same or greater rate of witchout as they had before, while gathering the grief collected by clear seeds. In other words, there's no incentive to establish or continue cooperation under a grief trade scenario.
Secondly, if farming was possible, why isn't it standard procedure? We have circumstantial evidence that the Incubators might harvest seeds non-destructively, as otherwise the passive grief generation of an active seed is wasted. If so, they can already support a farming model by re-providing those seeds to magical girls. That this does not happen suggests that they prefer regular witchouts at a lower population to harvesting the regular grief generation of a larger population. Or that s
eeds are in fact harvested destructively, which suggests different cooperative angles are possible.
I can't really see the point in proposing an endgame scenario that is predicated on far too many assumptions, some incorrect rather than merely unknown, and then propose a false dilemma based on that scenario.
You really love your false dilemmas. Just because sufficient magical girls can surpass passive generation doesn't mean that both are not better than one or the other.
Interloper pt. 14
You give Oriko a curious look. "Would you mind if I asked why you don't want to go?"
"Not at all," Oriko says.
You look at her, waiting for the answ- oh dammit.
Kirika giggles, nestling her head against Oriko and snuggling into the curtain of silvery grey hair cascading down the seer's side.
"So, why don't you want to go?" you ask, giving the seer a flat look. Really?
"I am a recognisable figure," she says, sea green eyes resting on you. Her expression is utterly neutral. "Very recognisable, especially with... events that have occurred." She shifts on the sofa again. "I do not... especially wish to be out in public."
You sigh. "I understand. If it's just the arm, though, we can disguise that. A Grief prosthesis, maybe, or just hide it with a sling?"
"People recognise me, as..." her expression flattens. "As the daughter of Mikuni Hisaomi. That my arm is... missing is a... lesser concern."
You raise an eyebrow at her. "You're a precog," you say tartly. "Do you really mean that you can't avoid people like that? And, what, does everyone recognise you?"
Oriko frowns, brows contracting elegantly.
"Look, honestly, Oriko, I'd enjoy your company," you say. "Or, you know, we both would. Kirika even more than me, I'm sure. So, please?"
The black haired girl makes a muffled, vaguely affirmative noise. Moving languidly, Kirika reaches up, patting Oriko's cheek. "Please, Oriko?"
The seer looks down at Kirika, expression softening. "Kirika, I shouldn't. I told you why," she murmurs, her own arm coming across to stroke Kirika's hair.
Kirika leans into the hand, nuzzling against it like a cat. "It'll be fun!" she whines.
You give her a narrow eyed look. "What can it hurt? I mean that literally. You can see the future. I do think you should get out of the house a bit, stretch your legs," you say. "And you'll make Kirika happy."
"Pleaaaaase?" Kirika whines.
"... fine," Oriko finally gives in.
"Yay!" Kirika cheers, bolting upright and then throwing her arms around the seer in a tight, delighted hug.
"Sabrina?" The seer looks up at you. "Would you mind stepping outside for a moment. I need to speak to Kirika." She blinks slowly, head tilting slightly to the side. "And yes, I need to speak to Kirika."
"Sure," you say, arching an amused eyebrow at her. "And, uh," you say as you stand, rolling your shoulders lightly.
"Yes?" Oriko regards you with a cool, dispassionate expression.
"Would you mind if I were to uproot a rose bush? I want to test something," you say, hooking a thumb over your shoulder in the general direction of the backyard.
"I don't mind," Oriko says.
"Alright, then," you say, heading out. A flex of your mind has marbles cascading out in front of you, a rippling, glittering tide flooding out into the backyard as you flex your will. "This might feel quite Witchy, by the way," you call over your shoulder.
An effort of will has the marbles melting into the form of a small excavator bucket. Just the bucket and most of the arm; you don't have enough grief for more than that. As the floating machine parts form, they virtually glow in your puella magi senses - Witch.
You look forward again, motioning with your hand. The excavator arm swings forward, biting into the ground with disdainful ease. You flip your hand, drawing it back, and the bucket pulls back, gouging a great hole from the ground and tearing a rosebush from the ground.
"Place it behind the rest of the rosebushes, if you please," Oriko says, walking up to watch dispassionately.
You comply, depositing it out of sight of the house, and then dissolve the excavator arm.
"Sabrinaaaaa?" Kirika asks. She's holding a large piece of cloth she's busily tying into a sling.
"Yes?" you ask as marbles flood back into your bag.
"What are you testing?" she asks brightly.
"Uh, to see whether things I do with Witch Grief are permanent?" you say.
"Ah," Kirika says. "OK. Oriko, do you want me to tear up the rest of the bushes?"
Oriko gives her a fond smile. "No need, Kirika."
"OK!" she says brightly. "Shoppiiiiiiing time?"
"Shopping time," you confirm. "So, uh, where's the nearest supermarket?"
"Walking distance," Oriko says, placidly unruffled. "Two blocks away."
"Well, is walking fine with you?" you ask. "Or maybe roofhopping?"
The seer's eyes go distant for a moment. "Roofhopping," she says, eyes refocusing.
"Sure," you shrug.
A few minutes later, you're roofhopping, Oriko and Kirika right behind you. To your great amusement, you can hear sharp cracks behind you as they follow, while you... You're doing less damage than they are. You're pretty sure. You could revert to actually trying to disperse momentum the mundane way by rolling on the landings, buuuuuuut.
"Sabrina?" Mami, sounding... panicked.
"Mami? What's wrong?" you ask, worry bleeding into your tone.
"Um. There's... We're having a test right now," Mami says. "I... didn't study."
You blink, nearly missing your step at the edge of a rooftop. She did mention a geography test last week, didn't she?
...
Well, damn.
[] Write-in
And we're back! Breaking here to give an opportunity to refine the conversation a little more and if you want to direct it anywhere in particular other than small talk. And how you want to respond to Mami, of course.
"Not at all," Oriko says.
You look at her, waiting for the answ- oh dammit.
Kirika giggles, nestling her head against Oriko and snuggling into the curtain of silvery grey hair cascading down the seer's side.
"So, why don't you want to go?" you ask, giving the seer a flat look. Really?
"I am a recognisable figure," she says, sea green eyes resting on you. Her expression is utterly neutral. "Very recognisable, especially with... events that have occurred." She shifts on the sofa again. "I do not... especially wish to be out in public."
You sigh. "I understand. If it's just the arm, though, we can disguise that. A Grief prosthesis, maybe, or just hide it with a sling?"
"People recognise me, as..." her expression flattens. "As the daughter of Mikuni Hisaomi. That my arm is... missing is a... lesser concern."
You raise an eyebrow at her. "You're a precog," you say tartly. "Do you really mean that you can't avoid people like that? And, what, does everyone recognise you?"
Oriko frowns, brows contracting elegantly.
"Look, honestly, Oriko, I'd enjoy your company," you say. "Or, you know, we both would. Kirika even more than me, I'm sure. So, please?"
The black haired girl makes a muffled, vaguely affirmative noise. Moving languidly, Kirika reaches up, patting Oriko's cheek. "Please, Oriko?"
The seer looks down at Kirika, expression softening. "Kirika, I shouldn't. I told you why," she murmurs, her own arm coming across to stroke Kirika's hair.
Kirika leans into the hand, nuzzling against it like a cat. "It'll be fun!" she whines.
You give her a narrow eyed look. "What can it hurt? I mean that literally. You can see the future. I do think you should get out of the house a bit, stretch your legs," you say. "And you'll make Kirika happy."
"Pleaaaaase?" Kirika whines.
"... fine," Oriko finally gives in.
"Yay!" Kirika cheers, bolting upright and then throwing her arms around the seer in a tight, delighted hug.
"Sabrina?" The seer looks up at you. "Would you mind stepping outside for a moment. I need to speak to Kirika." She blinks slowly, head tilting slightly to the side. "And yes, I need to speak to Kirika."
"Sure," you say, arching an amused eyebrow at her. "And, uh," you say as you stand, rolling your shoulders lightly.
"Yes?" Oriko regards you with a cool, dispassionate expression.
"Would you mind if I were to uproot a rose bush? I want to test something," you say, hooking a thumb over your shoulder in the general direction of the backyard.
"I don't mind," Oriko says.
"Alright, then," you say, heading out. A flex of your mind has marbles cascading out in front of you, a rippling, glittering tide flooding out into the backyard as you flex your will. "This might feel quite Witchy, by the way," you call over your shoulder.
An effort of will has the marbles melting into the form of a small excavator bucket. Just the bucket and most of the arm; you don't have enough grief for more than that. As the floating machine parts form, they virtually glow in your puella magi senses - Witch.
You look forward again, motioning with your hand. The excavator arm swings forward, biting into the ground with disdainful ease. You flip your hand, drawing it back, and the bucket pulls back, gouging a great hole from the ground and tearing a rosebush from the ground.
"Place it behind the rest of the rosebushes, if you please," Oriko says, walking up to watch dispassionately.
You comply, depositing it out of sight of the house, and then dissolve the excavator arm.
"Sabrinaaaaa?" Kirika asks. She's holding a large piece of cloth she's busily tying into a sling.
"Yes?" you ask as marbles flood back into your bag.
"What are you testing?" she asks brightly.
"Uh, to see whether things I do with Witch Grief are permanent?" you say.
"Ah," Kirika says. "OK. Oriko, do you want me to tear up the rest of the bushes?"
Oriko gives her a fond smile. "No need, Kirika."
"OK!" she says brightly. "Shoppiiiiiiing time?"
"Shopping time," you confirm. "So, uh, where's the nearest supermarket?"
"Walking distance," Oriko says, placidly unruffled. "Two blocks away."
"Well, is walking fine with you?" you ask. "Or maybe roofhopping?"
The seer's eyes go distant for a moment. "Roofhopping," she says, eyes refocusing.
"Sure," you shrug.
A few minutes later, you're roofhopping, Oriko and Kirika right behind you. To your great amusement, you can hear sharp cracks behind you as they follow, while you... You're doing less damage than they are. You're pretty sure. You could revert to actually trying to disperse momentum the mundane way by rolling on the landings, buuuuuuut.
"Sabrina?" Mami, sounding... panicked.
"Mami? What's wrong?" you ask, worry bleeding into your tone.
"Um. There's... We're having a test right now," Mami says. "I... didn't study."
You blink, nearly missing your step at the edge of a rooftop. She did mention a geography test last week, didn't she?
...
Well, damn.
[] Write-in
[x] Subjects for small-talk: (if Oriko comes restrain the jokes, don't talk about ojous, and include her in the general conversation while letting Kirika carry it)
-[x] Talk to Kirika about ojous. And... love? Ask for advice. How do we get her to stop worrying so much and be happier?
-[x] Ask Kirika if she would like to go flying someday.
-[x] Talk to Kirika about things she wants to do but hasn't had a chance to yet.
-[x] Ask how the healing is coming along. Is Kirika's proficiency with healing improving? Has Oriko been taught how yet?
-[x] Talk about cooking/baking. Pretty sure this is a shared interest between all three of us. Nerd out over it if appropriate.
-[x] Ask Kirika to tell you the bad jokes she came up with. All of them.
-[x] Tell all the bad jokes back. All of them.
--[x] How does a precog say goodbye? See you later.
--[x] How does an amnesiac say goodbye? I forget.
--[x] What did the precog say to the meme? I saw what you were going to do there.
--[x] How do you fool a precog? By making her wear motley and a hat with bells on it.
[x] After returning, ask them if they would be willing to assist you with experiments
-[x] Talk to Kirika about ojous. And... love? Ask for advice. How do we get her to stop worrying so much and be happier?
-[x] Ask Kirika if she would like to go flying someday.
-[x] Talk to Kirika about things she wants to do but hasn't had a chance to yet.
-[x] Ask how the healing is coming along. Is Kirika's proficiency with healing improving? Has Oriko been taught how yet?
-[x] Talk about cooking/baking. Pretty sure this is a shared interest between all three of us. Nerd out over it if appropriate.
-[x] Ask Kirika to tell you the bad jokes she came up with. All of them.
-[x] Tell all the bad jokes back. All of them.
--[x] How does a precog say goodbye? See you later.
--[x] How does an amnesiac say goodbye? I forget.
--[x] What did the precog say to the meme? I saw what you were going to do there.
--[x] How do you fool a precog? By making her wear motley and a hat with bells on it.
[x] After returning, ask them if they would be willing to assist you with experiments
=====
And we're back! Breaking here to give an opportunity to refine the conversation a little more and if you want to direct it anywhere in particular other than small talk. And how you want to respond to Mami, of course.
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Yeah, Sabrina. Damn about sums it up.
Does anyone here know Japanese History? Although I'm not too sure Mami would be willing to cheat via telepathy...
Jackercracks
In a British accent
- Location
- England
Our course is clear: we must help the Mami cheat on her test, using the awesome power of Wikipedia. Assuming PMAS history is anything like our history, anyway.