Kyuubey will not necessarily be against clear grief seed trade. That kind of trade would reduce the number of witchouts due to hunger, but it would also remove a primary source of conflict between meguca and allow them to work together more easily. This would (hopefully) have the effect of reducing the number of meguca deaths due to fighting each other and witches - deaths that Kyuubey considers wasteful because they occur without witchouts. Even with easy cleansing available, the unfortunate fact is that witchouts would still occur because trauma and heartbreak are unavoidable facets of life. So the ratio of meguca deaths to witchouts (due to trauma and heartbreak) might still be better for Kyuubey than the current ratio of deaths to witchouts (due to trauma, heartbreak, and starvation). There's no guarantee, and it would be a longer term payout, but it should be possible for us to convince Kyuubey that it's worth his while to encourage the clear grief seed trade (or at least to be neutral) rather than to sabotage it.
But it completely removes the economic-ecological certainty of witching. As it stands, witches are an inevitable outcome - there are, always have been, and always will be more witches than magical girls; if there aren't, the megucas starve until there are. It'd completely remove that mechanic, and make every witch an anomaly.

Not that 'QB will hate it' should be a compelling consideration, in my opinion. I'm in favor of lots of things it'd hate~
 
And what I'm saying is that Kyubey's strategy of pursuing short-term gain is probably already beneficial to it in the long-term. We can not and have not proven that any long-term cooperative scenario we envision has a better payout over time than simply "more witchouts faster".

But take it on a different level and assume that Kyubey's goal can be measured in billions of years. In that case, then it's actually more likely in my mind that Kyubey follows a set methodology, and that pursuing more witchouts faster is the result of a guideline or standard operating procedure. One that if applied on every one of the potentially thousands to billions of planets that the Incubators contract on, as a whole, produces more energy over time overall. That means that refinements can be made and exceptions can exist, but also that assigning motive to specific cases could in fact be overthinking things. It also means that any risk taken in terms of, say, planet-destroying witches, is diluted by having more than just one planet to draw upon.
The problem is that the risks that Kyuubey takes appear to have worse payouts over the long term. If you can have a more witchouts over a short period (even a single witch as big as Kriemhild Gretchen), but this results in fewer witchouts in the long term (i.e. over the thousands or tens of thousands of years that humanity could be expected to exist), then this is a worse strategy. Maybe we're wrong about Kyuubey's goals and he really is only interested in a short-term payoff. Or maybe we're wrong about what his plans are or the magnitude of the benefits and what appears to be short-term greed really turns out to be more profitable in the long term. But something is wrong either with Kyuubey's plans or with our perception of them.

Also, it seems to me that any Standard Operating Procedure which allows ones' enemies to make unrestricted wishes is intrinsically flawed. There has something here that we aren't seeing. Maybe Kyuubey has been playing things completely off the cuff and he's terrible at improvising. Maybe he's insane. Or maybe his goals and plans are not what we think they are.

But it completely removes the economic-ecological certainty of witching. As it stands, witches are an inevitable outcome - there are, always have been, and always will be more witches than magical girls; if there aren't, the megucas starve until there are. It'd completely remove that mechanic, and make every witch an anomaly.
If normal human meguca are regularly cleansed from grief, they would be kept safe from starvation, but most teenage girls would hit some sort of emotional breaking point within a few years. For regular humans, this just means that they would be depressed for a bit and then recover, but for a meguca it would mean witching out. The proportion of meguca to witches at any given time would make the witches an anomaly, but witching out would still be a near certainty for most girls.

Not that 'QB will hate it' should be a compelling consideration, in my opinion. I'm in favor of lots of things it'd hate~
The question here was whether or not Kyuubey would be motivated to sabotage a clear grief seed cleansing operation. There's not enough evidence to be sure, but it's possible that it would be worth it for him to help the operation (or that we could at least convince him to leave it alone). Obviously, we want to cleanse people regardless of Kyuubey's wishes, but it would be easier to do so (and we would be able to save more meguca) if he's not actively opposing us.
 
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If normal human meguca are regularly cleansed from grief, they would be kept safe from starvation, but most teenage girls would hit some sort of emotional breaking point within a few years. For regular humans, this just means that they would be depressed for a bit and then recover, but for a meguca it would mean witching out. The proportion of meguca to witches at any given time would make the witches an anomaly, but witching out would still be a near certainty for most girls.
With functionally limitless cleansing, grief-spirals aren't a factor. Crippling, suicidal depression isn't 'a near certainty for most girls' by any stretch of the imagination, particularly if we're taking active human/organizational steps to watch out for it and intervene in it.
 
The fact that they are implied to be capable of collecting emotional energy from the general populous means that Kriemheld Gretchen is likely not a once off payment but an investment that keeps on paying. Forever.
 
Also, it seems to me that any Standard Operating Procedure which allows ones' enemies to make unrestricted wishes is intrinsically flawed. There has something here that we aren't seeing. Maybe Kyuubey has been playing things completely off the cuff and he's terrible at improvising. Maybe he's insane. Or maybe his goals and plans are not what we think they are.
Meguca generally aren't Kyubey's enemies when they're making wishes, and the ones that do have beef with him when they contract generally have better things to use the wish for than naked spite. Madoka's long-thought-out wish didn't include vengeance, just improving the system. I think Kazumi got a second wish because system-breaking shenanigans and didn't use it to hurt Kyubey. Sabrina hates the coobs exactly as much as the fandom does, but she didn't wish suffering on them.
 
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The question here was whether or not Kyuubey would be motivated to sabotage a clear grief seed cleansing operation. There's not enough evidence to be sure, but it's possible that it would be worth it for him to help the operation (or that we could at least convince him to leave it alone). Obviously, we want to cleanse people regardless of Kyuubey's wishes, but it would be easier to do so (and we would be able to save more meguca) if he's not actively opposing us.
As to this - in the absence of an alternate power source (wishful thinking might make an adequate substitute ...) QB is literally feeding on human suffering. This is antithetical to our large-scale goals; any outcome that leaves it happy is, at best, a mitigated failure. Opposition from it implies that we're doing the right thing.
 
Kyuubey's goal is explicitly long term (and by long term I mean heat-death-of-the-universe long term). If his actual plans are for immediate, short-term gain, then there's some serious cognitive dissonance going on.
The problem is that the risks that Kyuubey takes appear to have worse payouts over the long term. If you can have a more witchouts over a short period (even a single witch as big as Kriemhild Gretchen), but this results in fewer witchouts in the long term (i.e. over the thousands or tens of thousands of years that humanity could be expected to exist), then this is a worse strategy. Maybe we're wrong about Kyuubey's goals and he really is only interested in a short-term payoff. Or maybe we're wrong about what his plans are or the magnitude of the benefits and what appears to be short-term greed really turns out to be more profitable in the long term. But something is wrong either with Kyuubey's plans or with our perception of them.

Also, it seems to me that any Standard Operating Procedure which allows ones' enemies to make unrestricted wishes is intrinsically flawed. There has something here that we aren't seeing. Maybe Kyuubey has been playing things completely off the cuff and he's terrible at improvising. Maybe he's insane. Or maybe his goals and plans are not what we think they are.


If normal human meguca are regularly cleansed from grief, they would be kept safe from starvation, but most teenage girls would hit some sort of emotional breaking point within a few years. For regular humans, this just means that they would be depressed for a bit and then recover, but for a meguca it would mean witching out. The proportion of meguca to witches at any given time would make the witches an anomaly, but witching out would still be a near certainty for most girls.


The question here was whether or not Kyuubey would be motivated to sabotage a clear grief seed cleansing operation. There's not enough evidence to be sure, but it's possible that it would be worth it for him to help the operation (or that we could at least convince him to leave it alone). Obviously, we want to cleanse people regardless of Kyuubey's wishes, but it would be easier to do so (and we would be able to save more meguca) if he's not actively opposing us.
Witch outs are not generally assured at all under those circumstances. The first thing to understand, is that witching out is responsible for 90-99% of the grief created by a magical girl over their lifetime. Under normal circumstances (i.e. no sabrina), Kyubey may well have the most efficient system.

Imagine a society of meguca 5-10 years down the line with free access to clear seeds. What social codes would grow in a society of (possibly immortal) mages which no longer has any reason to fight? For starters, there would be a lot more meguca, most would have meguca friends and meguca allies. It would be considered the neighbourly thing to do, to hold a friends gem during times of distress and keep a seed pressed to it. With such a small risk of hatching, people would keep their gems in transparent, padded cases with the clear seed constantly in contact, so that no matter how they fuck up they wouldn't spiral. Witch outs would very much be the exception, not the rule, under these circumstances.

It's likely that more girls would die from gem destruction than from witch outs... Which would actually be a problem for the growing population. At 10 years down the line there would be more magical girls that grief seeds, so a system of sharing would have to emerge... at 20 years there would be closer to 40,000-200,000 meguca worldwide and a severe seed shortage shortage. An average city would have 60-300 meguca with only 10-30 seeds. At this point you might get two or more girls grief spiraling at once, with only one seed between them. Because lots of girls are friends a spiral of one could spread to others, leading to the dwarf fortress tantrum spiral, except it leaves a city with 1/4-3/4 of its meguca witched out. While a tragedy, this would form a self-regulating feedback loop which would slowly increase the number of seeds in circulation, keeping the ratio at just about the level required to cause quiet desperation. At 25 years this strategy become untenable as large groups of meguca fight over scarce clear seeds and gem destruction rises.

The problem of long term seed shortage could be avoided via familiar farming, but that just puts the life of one magical girl as more important than 10 normal humans. I would still expect it to happen in a lot of groups, however. With magic use no longer limited, meguca could theoretically do enough good that familiar farming would be the moral thing to do. A rule that a meguca must save 20-50+ lives through magical healing or otherwise before they're allowed to own a clear seed (while still getting cleanses from a communal seed) could be implemented. In this manner the meguca population would be a net gain for humanity. Familiars could be farmed mainly in war zones, on death row, or in places with a very high average age in order to reduce the number of life-years taken to produce each seed.

The Meguca population has no real limit. Sabrina can cleanse a theoretically infinite number of clear seeds every year, given use of time stop and other magical fuckery. She could even live a normal life at the same time, because of her impressive multitasking skills. There is population growth, but no predation. With magical healing, meguca durability and proper soul gem defensive casing there should be functional immortality. Once the population reaches 20-100 times current level (depending on the exact amount of grief created over a year and by a witchout), Kyubey would be receiving more grief from the planet than before even if witchouts are kept to zero. Even if the population of meguca becomes greater than the population of normal humans, its growth is restricted to the number of girls with potential that appear each year and each meguca only needs a clear seed once, so familiar farming would not impact the human population on a macro scale.

Kyubey should accept such a proposal. He is greedy, and thinks long term. They've been doing this for thousands of years. The chance to get more than 10x the grief each year from a world is not something I think he is likely to pass up.

As an aside the possibility of familiar farming raises interesting ethical questions about meguca revival from seed form. If a witch is turned back into a magical girl, but it still has a familiar out there, and the familiar becomes a witch, and that witch is also revived, what happens? Do you get a clone of the magical girl? If one girl saved is good, is two better? Can the clones use magic? Does that imply we're also cloning the soul? A healing based meguca with a clear seed could save hundreds or thousands of lives, does it then become ethical to sacrifice 2000 humans to create 100 meguca and 100 seeds which will then save 10,000-100,000 humans? I lean towards yes, since if we know that a girl has saved 500 lives, then we know her clones will also likely save 500 lives. More people living is better than less people living, and 20 is less than 500.

TL: DR Kyubey should accept a grief trade proposal if we put it in the right words.
 
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Personally, I have a very Sayaka-ish view of familiar farming.

Also, A bunch of girls griefspiraling at once could cause spontaneous Walpurgisnights. Possibly multiple ones at once. That could result in multiple cities being wiped off the map every few years. That is not sustainable.
 
Personally, I have a very Sayaka-ish view of familiar farming.

Also, A bunch of girls griefspiraling at once could cause spontaneous Walpurgisnights. Possibly multiple ones at once. That could result in multiple cities being wiped off the map every few years. That is not sustainable.
Well, you've got to pick one or the other. Familiar farming (with a side of healing many more than are lost to farming), spontaneous walpurgis or the current system are our options as they stand.

In situations with enough clear seeds there shouldn't be any spontaneous walpurgis, because everyone would have a clear seed kept constantly touching their gem
 
I don't believe in the concept of equating people that way. I don't believe that morality is determined mathematically by simple addition and subtraction of lives saved and lost.
 
I don't believe in the concept of equating people that way. I don't believe that morality is determined mathematically by simple addition and subtraction of lives saved and lost.
Cool, so you're a virtue ethicist. Generally a good moral code to follow, technically saves less lives in theory but generally works quite well in practice because people find it easy to convince themselves that killing whoever is 'justified'. Useful as a personal code but less effective on the scale of nations.

Which situation do you pick then? Note that picking the status quo is the same as saying "I think this way of meguca living is better than these other alternatives."
 
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Witch outs are not generally assured at all under those circumstances. The first thing to understand, is that witching out is responsible for 90-99% of the grief created by a magical girl over their lifetime. Under normal circumstances (i.e. no sabrina), Kyubey may well have the most efficient system.

Imagine a society of meguca 5-10 years down the line with free access to clear seeds. What social codes would grow in a society of (possibly immortal) mages which no longer has any reason to fight? For starters, there would be a lot more meguca, most would have meguca friends and meguca allies. It would be considered the neighbourly thing to do, to hold a friends gem during times of distress and keep a seed pressed to it. With such a small risk of hatching, people would keep their gems in transparent, padded cases with the clear seed constantly in contact, so that no matter how they fuck up they wouldn't spiral. Witch outs would very much be the exception, not the rule, under these circumstances.

It's likely that more girls would die from gem destruction than from witch outs... Which would actually be a problem for the growing population. At 10 years down the line there would be more magical girls that grief seeds, so a system of sharing would have to emerge... at 20 years there would be closer to 40,000-200,000 meguca worldwide and a severe seed shortage shortage. An average city would have 60-300 meguca with only 10-30 seeds. At this point you might get two or more girls grief spiraling at once, with only one seed between them. Because lots of girls are friends a spiral of one could spread to others, leading to the dwarf fortress tantrum spiral, except it leaves a city with 1/4-3/4 of its meguca witched out. While a tragedy, this would form a self-regulating feedback loop which would slowly increase the number of seeds in circulation, keeping the ratio at just about the level required to cause quiet desperation. At 25 years this strategy become untenable as large groups of meguca fight over scarce clear seeds and gem destruction rises.

The problem of long term seed shortage could be avoided via familiar farming, but that just puts the life of one magical girl as more important than 10 normal humans. I would still expect it to happen in a lot of groups, however. With magic use no longer limited, meguca could theoretically do enough good that familiar farming would be the moral thing to do. A rule that a meguca must save 20-50+ lives through magical healing or otherwise before they're allowed to own a clear seed (while still getting cleanses from a communal seed) could be implemented. In this manner the meguca population would be a net gain for humanity. Familiars could be farmed mainly in war zones, on death row, or in places with a very high average age in order to reduce the number of life-years taken to produce each seed.

The Meguca population has no real limit. Sabrina can cleanse a theoretically infinite number of clear seeds every year, given use of time stop and other magical fuckery. She could even live a normal life at the same time, because of her impressive multitasking skills. There is population growth, but no predation. With magical healing, meguca durability and proper soul gem defensive casing there should be functional immortality. Once the population reaches 20-100 times current level (depending on the exact amount of grief created over a year and by a witchout), Kyubey would be receiving more grief from the planet than before even if witchouts are kept to zero. Even if the population of meguca becomes greater than the population of normal humans, its growth is restricted to the number of girls with potential that appear each year and each meguca only needs a clear seed once, so familiar farming would not impact the human population on a macro scale.

Kyubey should accept such a proposal. He is greedy, and thinks long term. They've been doing this for thousands of years. The chance to get more than 10x the grief each year from a world is not something I think he is likely to pass up.

As an aside the possibility of familiar farming raises interesting ethical questions about meguca revival from seed form. If a witch is turned back into a magical girl, but it still has a familiar out there, and the familiar becomes a witch, and that witch is also revived, what happens? Do you get a clone of the magical girl? If one girl saved is good, is two better? Can the clones use magic? Does that imply we're also cloning the soul? A healing based meguca with a clear seed could save hundreds or thousands of lives, does it then become ethical to sacrifice 2000 humans to create 100 meguca and 100 seeds which will then save 10,000-100,000 humans? I lean towards yes, since if we know that a girl has saved 500 lives, then we know her clones will also likely save 500 lives. More people living is better than less people living, and 20 is less than 500.

TL: DR Kyubey should accept a grief trade proposal if we put it in the right words.
Keep in mind that consequentialist morality is a good recipe for people doing awful shit in the name of "the greater good". Also, even without the ethical can of worms, any and all agreements with Kyubey have the issue of allying with a being that will betray us literally the moment it becomes profitable to do so. I suspect the reason he's willing to give up so much to get Madoka to witch is because that witchout generates such an impossible amount of energy that the entire future of earth is unlikely to compare, so focusing on small, long-term gains with him is going to end badly. I would prefer kicking them off earth forever, or, as a stretch goal, destroying the incubators wholesale. They are a race of unrepentant psychopaths that manipulate little girls into suicide and then torture their souls forever, after all.

Trusting Kyubey in any long-term fashion can only end with the line "Curse your sudden but inevitable betrayal!".
 
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Cool, so you're a virtue ethicist. Generally a good moral code to follow, technically saves less lives in theory but generally works quite well in practice because people find it easy to convince themselves that killing whoever is 'justified'. Useful as a personal code but less effective on the scale of nations.

Which situation do you pick then? Note that picking the status quo is the same as saying "I think this way of meguca living is better than these other alternatives."

I think that calling me a Virtue Ethicist is a bit oversimplified, but I am a deontologist. Personally, I'd rather disallow farming and prepare for the witchouts in advance in order to minimise damage they cause.


EDIT: Personally, my problem with that kind of morality is that it treats people as objects rather than individuals.
 
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If normal human meguca are regularly cleansed from grief, they would be kept safe from starvation, but most teenage girls would hit some sort of emotional breaking point within a few years. For regular humans, this just means that they would be depressed for a bit and then recover, but for a meguca it would mean witching out. The proportion of meguca to witches at any given time would make the witches an anomaly, but witching out would still be a near certainty for most girls.
Point of order: It took Sayaka almost an entire week from the revelation of the lichbomb to her witching out, and that's with her purposefully neglecting the care of her soul gem and fighting two witches on top of that. A grief spiral isn't an instantaneous process, and baring extreme conditions it takes actual work to witch out. It's not something that just happens because you have a particularly bad day, you need to be more or less suicidal, over a prolonged period of time, in order to witch out.
 
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4) Following up on our established commitments, like our obligations to keep the peace with Sendai and everyone else, checking up on Masami/Hiroko and Kyouko/Yuma sometimes, healing Kyousuke's (and Hitomi's) hand, taking care of Oriko and Kirika.
And meeting with North Tokyo and Fukushima... Probably gonna wait on this until this chapter ends?
 
I think that calling me a Virtue Ethicist is a bit oversimplified, but I am a deontologist. Personally, I'd rather disallow farming and prepare for the witchouts in advance in order to minimise damage they cause.


EDIT: Personally, my problem with that kind of morality is that it treats people as objects rather than individuals.
Which means you choose meguca warfare over sparse resources, leading to eventual witchouts and a rather massive number of deaths in the crossfire. Punts the deaths down the road a few years. Well, I'll just have to find a way to make this palatable to Sayaka's morality! I shall call it the Sayaka test. Any proposal must be one that Sayaka could approve of. On a side note Sayakas cannon stance on familiar farms actually makes a great deal of sense from both consequentialist and deontologist viewpoints, because it implies Kyouko is killing about 10 people a month and not saving anyone.

I'm sure we can find some combination you're okay with.

How about convicted murderers, or serial killers, or paedophiles? Do they deserve your protection? Where is your line drawn? Why we could even mind read them beforehand to make 100% sure they're guilty.

Or hey, what if I got into a hospital and find a person with incurable liver failure and 7 hours to live, then I get their signed permission to have a familiar kiss them? They're 100% going to die anyway, so it's just like being an organ donor, and they get to choose whether or not they want to do it. And then I go off and save 10 children from cancer in the hospital, just to be nice. Would that be ethically acceptable?

My grandmother died of Alzheimers, and let me tell you, by the latter stages there's really not a whole lot of a person left in there. Or indeed anything at all near the end. They forget everything that makes them human. Many choose euthanasia ahead of time. So how about them? Could get permission years before while they're still lucid.
 
Which means you choose meguca warfare over sparse resources, leading to eventual witchouts and a rather massive number of deaths in the crossfire. Punts the deaths down the road a few years. Well, I'll just have to find a way to make this palatable to Sayaka's morality! I shall call it the Sayaka test. Any proposal must be one that Sayaka could approve of. On a side note Sayakas cannon stance on familiar farms actually makes a great deal of sense from both consequentialist and deontologist viewpoints, because it implies Kyouko is killing about 10 people a month and not saving anyone.

I'm sure we can find some combination you're okay with.

How about convicted murderers, or serial killers, or paedophiles? Do they deserve your protection? Where is your line drawn? Why we could even mind read them beforehand to make 100% sure they're guilty.

Or hey, what if I got into a hospital and find a person with incurable liver failure and 7 hours to live, then I get their signed permission to have a familiar kiss them? They're 100% going to die anyway, so it's just like being an organ donor, and they get to choose whether or not they want to do it. And then I go off and save 10 children from cancer in the hospital, just to be nice. Would that be ethically acceptable?

My grandmother died of Alzheimers, and let me tell you, by the latter stages there's really not a whole lot of a person left in there. Or indeed anything at all near the end. They forget everything that makes them human. Many choose euthanasia ahead of time. So how about them? Could get permission years before while they're still lucid.
I... you're being sarcastic right? Suggesting empress Sabrina's familiar farming program for undesirables? If so, I need to ask why. He raises a valid point: consequentialist morality treats people as objects rather than individuals with their own hopes, dreams, family, friends, and foibles.

If you aren't being sarcastic, then... well I'm not sure what to say. We shouldn't murder people for seeds? I thought we already agreed on this.
 
Which means you choose meguca warfare over sparse resources, leading to eventual witchouts and a rather massive number of deaths in the crossfire.

Nope. Meguca who attack each other get put down.

Punts the deaths down the road a few years. Well, I'll just have to find a way to make this palatable to Sayaka's morality! I shall call it the Sayaka test. Any proposal must be one that Sayaka could approve of. On a side note Sayakas cannon stance on familiar farms actually makes a great deal of sense from both consequentialist and deontologist viewpoints, because it implies Kyouko is killing about 10 people a month and not saving anyone.

Too many people handwave Kyouko's actions.

How about convicted murderers, or serial killers, or paedophiles? Do they deserve your protection? Where is your line drawn? Why we could even mind read them beforehand to make 100% sure they're guilty.

Using, say, serial killers is fine, because they're a threat to society just like witches are. The others are understandable for a similar reason. My problem is treating people like homogenous units you can balance on a spreadsheet. "If I find someone more evil than a witch, I'll fight her".

Or hey, what if I got into a hospital and find a person with incurable liver failure and 7 hours to live, then I get their signed permission to have a familiar kiss them? They're 100% going to die anyway, so it's just like being an organ donor, and they get to choose whether or not they want to do it. And then I go off and save 10 children from cancer in the hospital, just to be nice. Would that be ethically acceptable?

Sure! My problem is treating people like homogenous units you can balance on a spreadsheet.

My grandmother died of Alzheimers, and let me tell you, by the latter stages there's really not a whole lot of a person left in there. Or indeed anything at all near the end. They forget everything that makes them human. Many choose euthanasia ahead of time. So how about them? Could get permission years before while they're still lucid.

Totally with you on that. My mother get dementia near the end of her life. And most of my family was eager for my grandfather to die as he suffered so much from his cancer.

But allowing familiars to randomly assault people on the street is very different from all that.

EDIT: Of course, as suggested by Gadjo, I want to avoid killing people in general.
 
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I am deeply uncomfortable with the prospect of familiar farming in this quest. Not just because I can't agree with it morally - but because it seriously darkens the mood of the quest.

And we have enough arguments already without bringing fundamentally irreconcilable ethical arguments into this.

...II'm feeling the need for cat pics here...
 
I am deeply uncomfortable with the prospect of familiar farming in this quest. Not just because I can't agree with it morally - but because it seriously darkens the mood of the quest.

And we have enough arguments already without bringing fundamentally irreconcilable ethical arguments into this.

...II'm feeling the need for cat pics here...
Cats do some adorable things, yeah?
 
I am deeply uncomfortable with the prospect of familiar farming in this quest. Not just because I can't agree with it morally - but because it seriously darkens the mood of the quest.

And we have enough arguments already without bringing fundamentally irreconcilable ethical arguments into this.

...II'm feeling the need for cat pics here...
Agreed. It shouldn't be necessary if we do our job right anyway.
 
Too many people handwave Kyouko's actions.
They were wrong, but the reason people are willing to excuse that is that Kyoko's familiar farming is that at least she had some kind of excuse: she was doing it for survival's sake, which is analogous to allowing other people to die so you can take their food. It's horrible, but at least understandable. Sabrina, on the other hand, has absolutely no excuse for that since she's a walking meguca battery.
 
The problem is that the risks that Kyuubey takes appear to have worse payouts over the long term. If you can have a more witchouts over a short period (even a single witch as big as Kriemhild Gretchen), but this results in fewer witchouts in the long term (i.e. over the thousands or tens of thousands of years that humanity could be expected to exist), then this is a worse strategy. Maybe we're wrong about Kyuubey's goals and he really is only interested in a short-term payoff. Or maybe we're wrong about what his plans are or the magnitude of the benefits and what appears to be short-term greed really turns out to be more profitable in the long term. But something is wrong either with Kyuubey's plans or with our perception of them.

Also, it seems to me that any Standard Operating Procedure which allows ones' enemies to make unrestricted wishes is intrinsically flawed. There has something here that we aren't seeing. Maybe Kyuubey has been playing things completely off the cuff and he's terrible at improvising. Maybe he's insane. Or maybe his goals and plans are not what we think they are.

You've missed my point completely. Or we're both talking past each other, possibly. I'm literally saying that more witchouts over a shorter period, if applied universally and to a longer period, literally means more witchouts over a longer period. That's what makes pursuing immediate witchouts as a rule better than not pursuing. Situations like Madoka are the exception, not the norm.

As for unlimited wishes, magic has to be willed. Restricting that artificially probably prevents the process in the first place. Kyubey has always acted as if it has no input on wishes. Circumstantial evidence, but in favor of the idea that wishes are necessarily unlimited. As in would not be possible if limited.
 
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